I've built an overrun specialist for the home game I'm playing in and the first time I used it, my GM was like "whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on!" He really didn't like the ease with which I was bowling over enemies!
So he examined my character sheet closely now, and the only thing he noticed was that he doesn't think that the bonus for Improved Overrun should stack with the bonus from Bulette Charge Style.
Improved Overrun says:
You are skilled at running down your foes.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to overrun you. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver.
Bulette Charge Style says:
You use the weight of your armor to enhance the momentum of your charge.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, proficiency with heavy armor.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks to overrun an opponent. Any magic ability or material that reduces your armor check penalty also reduces the bonus you gain for this style.
Special: A character with the armor training class feature can use Bulette Charge Style while wearing any type of armor with which she is proficient. Medium armor grants a +3 bonus, and light armor grants a +2 bonus.
Do these bonuses stack? I seem to recall that UNTYPED bonuses stack but I may be wrong.
Bonus question: Does an Overrun attempt have to be in a straight line?
They do stack. It's a total of +6 from the two feats.
(Bulette Charge Style is a little awkwardly worded. You only get the +4 bonus if you are wearing heavy armor. You can get that bonus regardless of your class. If you are wearing light or medium armor AND have the armor training class feature you get a lower bonus. But all are in addition to the bonus from Improved Overrun.)
Bonus question: No. It can be done "during your move or as part of a charge." Charge has to be a straight line but move does not. Bear in mind that the overrun attempt takes a standard action, so if you knock your enemy prone you don't have a standard left to attack with.
Belafon wrote: They do stack. It's a total of +6 from the two feats.
(Bulette Charge Style is a little awkwardly worded. You only get the +4 bonus if you are wearing heavy armor. You can get that bonus regardless of your class. If you are wearing light or medium armor AND have the armor training class feature you get a lower bonus. But all are in addition to the bonus from Improved Overrun.)
Bonus question: No. It can be done "during your move or as part of a charge." Charge has to be a straight line but move does not. Bear in mind that the overrun attempt takes a standard action, so if you knock your enemy prone you don't have a standard left to attack with.
Ok, Thanks and thanks for answering the bonus question. And yes, I know that I cant attack in the same round that I Overrun (except for attack of opportunity).
If your GM still thinks your numbers are high, you can ask him to compare to a trip specialist.
A trip just needs to beat your opponent's CMD to knock him prone. Overrun has to beat the CMD by 5 to knock the opponent prone. Even if you have +6 from both Improved Overrun and Bulette Style, someone with only Improved Trip still has a better chance to knock his opponent prone.
RAW - yes, the bonus from these will stack.
However, remember rule #0, The GM is always right.
Belafon wrote: They do stack. It's a total of +6 from the two feats.
(Bulette Charge Style is a little awkwardly worded. You only get the +4 bonus if you are wearing heavy armor. You can get that bonus regardless of your class. If you are wearing light or medium armor AND have the armor training class feature you get a lower bonus. But all are in addition to the bonus from Improved Overrun.
...
yep
as stated your GM usually has game balance reasons in mind. It is good to look at the other PCs and encounters. If you are thrashing them in 3-7 rounds then there isn't currently a play issue.
If your GM wants to slow things down for a bit, lowering XP and gold (75%-50%) does that pretty effectively.
One thing to keep in mind is that bulette charge style requires you to spend a swift action to enter the stance and you cannot use a style feat before combat.
Rule 0 is not so much that the GM is always right, but that the GM can alter any part of the game he wants to. Your GM can simply house rule that in his campaigns they do not stack, or he could simply not allow the feat.
Belafon wrote: Bear in mind that the overrun attempt takes a standard action, so if you knock your enemy prone you don't have a standard left to attack with. The Charge Through feat is a good way to alleviate this problem
Belafon wrote: If your GM still thinks your numbers are high, you can ask him to compare to a trip specialist.
A trip just needs to beat your opponent's CMD to knock him prone. Overrun has to beat the CMD by 5 to knock the opponent prone. Even if you have +6 from both Improved Overrun and Bulette Style, someone with only Improved Trip still has a better chance to knock his opponent prone.
** spoiler omitted **
GREAT point! I will mention this to him. He is very reasonable.
Belafon wrote: If your GM still thinks your numbers are high, you can ask him to compare to a trip specialist.
A trip just needs to beat your opponent's CMD to knock him prone. Overrun has to beat the CMD by 5 to knock the opponent prone. Even if you have +6 from both Improved Overrun and Bulette Style, someone with only Improved Trip still has a better chance to knock his opponent prone.
** spoiler omitted **
I will take what you said in the spoiler as future advice. Lol!
TxSam88 wrote: RAW - yes, the bonus from these will stack.
However, remember rule #0, The GM is always right.
FACTS. This is why I didnt make a big deal when he stopped me from using it, but I waited until after the session to talk to him about it. If he persists in his ruling, I will ask to be allowed to swap out for different feats.
Azothath wrote: Belafon wrote: They do stack. It's a total of +6 from the two feats.
(Bulette Charge Style is a little awkwardly worded. You only get the +4 bonus if you are wearing heavy armor. You can get that bonus regardless of your class. If you are wearing light or medium armor AND have the armor training class feature you get a lower bonus. But all are in addition to the bonus from Improved Overrun.
...
yep
as stated your GM usually has game balance reasons in mind. It is good to look at the other PCs and encounters. If you are thrashing them in 3-7 rounds then there isn't currently a play issue.
If your GM wants to slow things down for a bit, lowering XP and gold (75%-50%) does that pretty effectively. Yeah, I think he was just weirded out that I knocked down 3/4 of his wolf pack in one charge (I have Bulette Leap feat as well). So he was only concerned with game balance. I think once I talk to him again about it, with the points made in this thread, he will feel more comfortable... I hope.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: One thing to keep in mind is that bulette charge style requires you to spend a swift action to enter the stance and you cannot use a style feat before combat.
Rule 0 is not so much that the GM is always right, but that the GM can alter any part of the game he wants to. Your GM can simply house rule that in his campaigns they do not stack, or he could simply not allow the feat.
Yes, I made a point of taking the Swift action and I even played it up, describing how my character goes down in to a sprint runner's stance and pretends to blow a little whistle. lol
Yes, Im a little concerned that he will rule that they dont stack, but I think he is going to let me at least keep the feats.
Dasrak wrote: Belafon wrote: Bear in mind that the overrun attempt takes a standard action, so if you knock your enemy prone you don't have a standard left to attack with. The Charge Through feat is a good way to alleviate this problem I hadnt considered Charge Through before but this is an obvious addition now that you've brought it to my attention. Thanks!
Advice:
You definitely have a good build, but you may want to prepare yourself for a lower fun level in a few levels. By the time you get to 6th level (and have picked up Greater Overrun, Bulette Rampage, and Combat Reflexes), you'll likely be able to do 40-50 damage to each enemy as well as knocking them prone. Even at your current level just being able to knock multiple enemies prone is devastating. Any time you have a PC that can essentially end every fight by himself the GM will start looking for ways to counter him. Not because the GM is antagonistic or has gotten into an arms race with the player. Rather because the GM is looking for ways to make the encounters more interesting for everyone (himself included) than a continual "roll initiative, Soapbox's turn, encounter over."
With your build that could mean a lot of huge creatures. Or flying creatures, or creatures that otherwise can't be knocked prone. He could slow you down without shutting you down just by adding more ranged attackers and/or spreading the creatures out to where you can only reach one or two with a move. (Probably the most "fair" thing to do.) Again, this isn't a negative reflection on your GM. Any player with a build that is hyper-specialized to end encounters quickly will find this kind of thing happening to them. Because it's not a single-player game and the GM wants to make it fun for everyone.
That's a long-winded way of saying "make sure you have a plan to diversify your character."
To add on to Belafon's last post:
Overrun has the weaknesses against larger creatures, flying creatures, and creatures with more than two legs. Creatures also have the option to avoid it and just let you run through. No CMD check, no worry about being knocked prone; nor does it require a great deal of intelligence to get out of the way.
Also make sure any penalties are being added correctly, -2 for extra legs, -2 for each additional creature you overrun, etc.
Wolf has base CMD of 14, so 18 against overrun for first wolf, 20 against next, and so on. Plus you have to be at that by 5 to knock prone, so 23+ for first, 25+ for second, etc.
Belafon wrote: Advice:
That's a long-winded way of saying "make sure you have a plan to diversify your character."
SUPER good advice. Thank you. I was considering some of this even after my first time using my feats based on the GM's reaction.
I'm thinking of changing directions a bit (after I get Bulette Rampage and Combat Reflexes) to go into a Improved Sunder direction, but I havent looked into it yet.
Im open to suggestions.
I grok do u wrote: To add on to Belafon's last post:
Overrun has the weaknesses against larger creatures, flying creatures, and creatures with more than two legs. Creatures also have the option to avoid it and just let you run through. No CMD check, no worry about being knocked prone; nor does it require a great deal of intelligence to get out of the way.
Also make sure any penalties are being added correctly, -2 for extra legs, -2 for each additional creature you overrun, etc.
Wolf has base CMD of 14, so 18 against overrun for first wolf, 20 against next, and so on. Plus you have to be at that by 5 to knock prone, so 23+ for first, 25+ for second, etc.
Oh, yes, I considered these weaknesses when building the character and I'm at peace with them. I don't want to be the only player getting a chance to do cool stuff, so weaknesses are a good thing in that light. My character is weak in several ways. For example, Will and Reflex are poor.
Also, Improved Overrun states "Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."
In the one attack I used Overrun for, I targeted 2 wolves and defeated their CMD's very easily. This may be because I was Raging so my STR mod alone was +7 and my Overrun CMB was +16
just wondering, did you also take levels in the siegebreaker class? that thing get very nasty with overrun and bull rush with just 2 level dip.
zza ni wrote: just wondering, did you also take levels in the siegebreaker class? that thing get very nasty with overrun and bull rush with just 2 level dip. No, I wasnt aware of it but now I will look it up! My build so far is Fighter 3(Mutation Warrior)/Barbarian 1(Armored Hulk)
|
