Soapbox's page

Thank you all for your comments and the extra information!

There is no such thing as Taking 20 in this edition and even if we were to use the first edition Taking20 it assumes you can repeat the check until you make it which you cannot in this scenario.

Furthermore the lockout happens on a failure with you(or your innovation) taking damage on a critical failure.

It is however true that you can treat it as similar to Lay on Hands for extra healing whenever you have 10 minutes to spare.

Oh, I didn't even catch that Taking 20 doesn't even exist in 2E! Thanks for the explanation. I'm thinking it will be an ability I'll only use outside combat unless some one is very desperate.

I think I found my answer: you can't Take 20 on a Flat check because it represents chance, not skill or technique.

So "Searing Restoration" kinda is an unlimited font of healing, even in combat, but only so long as your luck holds out.

Outside of combat, you can use it at will so long as you are willing to deal with the consequences of any failures you get on the Flat checks.

Is that about right?

I'm building my first "Inventor" character (at 3rd level) and I have selected the "Searing Restoration" ability which seems very powerful to me. I understand that it carries the "unstable" trait which forces a flat check every time I use the power in combat (and brings a temporary lockout on a crit failure).

Is there anything preventing me from using the power out of combat and Taking 20 on the flat check each time? Am I maybe misunderstanding how that works?

Note that the "same source" is a bit vague. Generally, it's assumed to mean that multiple castings of the exact same spell or effect can't benefit you more than once. But there is an FAQ that made it a little more vague:

"...made it a little more vague" ROFL

Well either source should work. For what it's worth I still have a physical copy of the original CRB. The quote you're looking for in in Chapter 9 "Magic", "Special Spell Effects" section, "Bonus Types", page 208, first continued paragraph of the second column, last sentence.

Oh, thank you so much for pointing out the exact location. I know that my GM has a hard copy of the CRB because I've seen it. This should settle the argument. Thanks again.

link to it on d20pfsrd

Bonus
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

"Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." THATS the ticket! I hope he'll accept d20pfrsd. Thank you for hunting this down!

From the magic chapter of the CRB under spell effects:

"Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source."

Edit: frustratingly I cannot find this rule on Nethys, I had to go to the legacy PRD to pull it, if your GM is working of Nethys as a primary source that could be the cause of this issue.

This is probably the issue (using Nethys). Thank you for researching it!

I should add that the phrase I am looking to find is that "untyped bonuses stack".

A few weeks ago, I wrote on here asking to confirm that the bonuses from Improved Overrun and Bulette Charge Style stack. I was assured that I am remembering correctly and that they do, in fact, stack. Thanks to all that replied!
However, my GM doesn't believe me! Its NOT that he is merely ruling against me, which I could accept (Rule Zero and all that)... No, the problem is that he disagrees with the notion, which I find so hard to accept. But I figured, hey, if I can show him the rule in the CRB, he will believe me, and may change his mind.
SO, I went to look up the general rule in the CRB on ArchivesofNethys and I found no such ruling! I searched for "stack" "stacking" "untyped"... Am I just looking past it? Is it maybe never explicitly stated? Any advice will be appreciated.

just wondering, did you also take levels in the siegebreaker class? that thing get very nasty with overrun and bull rush with just 2 level dip.

No, I wasnt aware of it but now I will look it up! My build so far is Fighter 3(Mutation Warrior)/Barbarian 1(Armored Hulk)

To add on to Belafon's last post:

Overrun has the weaknesses against larger creatures, flying creatures, and creatures with more than two legs. Creatures also have the option to avoid it and just let you run through. No CMD check, no worry about being knocked prone; nor does it require a great deal of intelligence to get out of the way.

Also make sure any penalties are being added correctly, -2 for extra legs, -2 for each additional creature you overrun, etc.

Wolf has base CMD of 14, so 18 against overrun for first wolf, 20 against next, and so on. Plus you have to be at that by 5 to knock prone, so 23+ for first, 25+ for second, etc.

Oh, yes, I considered these weaknesses when building the character and I'm at peace with them. I don't want to be the only player getting a chance to do cool stuff, so weaknesses are a good thing in that light. My character is weak in several ways. For example, Will and Reflex are poor.

Also, Improved Overrun states "Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you."

In the one attack I used Overrun for, I targeted 2 wolves and defeated their CMD's very easily. This may be because I was Raging so my STR mod alone was +7 and my Overrun CMB was +16

Advice:

That's a long-winded way of saying "make sure you have a plan to diversify your character."

SUPER good advice. Thank you. I was considering some of this even after my first time using my feats based on the GM's reaction.

I'm thinking of changing directions a bit (after I get Bulette Rampage and Combat Reflexes) to go into a Improved Sunder direction, but I havent looked into it yet.

Im open to suggestions.

Belafon wrote:

Bear in mind that the overrun attempt takes a standard action, so if you knock your enemy prone you don't have a standard left to attack with.

The Charge Through feat is a good way to alleviate this problem

I hadnt considered Charge Through before but this is an obvious addition now that you've brought it to my attention. Thanks!

One thing to keep in mind is that bulette charge style requires you to spend a swift action to enter the stance and you cannot use a style feat before combat.

Rule 0 is not so much that the GM is always right, but that the GM can alter any part of the game he wants to. Your GM can simply house rule that in his campaigns they do not stack, or he could simply not allow the feat.

Yes, I made a point of taking the Swift action and I even played it up, describing how my character goes down in to a sprint runner's stance and pretends to blow a little whistle. lol

Yes, Im a little concerned that he will rule that they dont stack, but I think he is going to let me at least keep the feats.

Belafon wrote:

They do stack. It's a total of +6 from the two feats.

(Bulette Charge Style is a little awkwardly worded. You only get the +4 bonus if you are wearing heavy armor. You can get that bonus regardless of your class. If you are wearing light or medium armor AND have the armor training class feature you get a lower bonus. But all are in addition to the bonus from Improved Overrun.
...

yep

as stated your GM usually has game balance reasons in mind. It is good to look at the other PCs and encounters. If you are thrashing them in 3-7 rounds then there isn't currently a play issue.
If your GM wants to slow things down for a bit, lowering XP and gold (75%-50%) does that pretty effectively.

Yeah, I think he was just weirded out that I knocked down 3/4 of his wolf pack in one charge (I have Bulette Leap feat as well). So he was only concerned with game balance. I think once I talk to him again about it, with the points made in this thread, he will feel more comfortable... I hope.

RAW - yes, the bonus from these will stack.

However, remember rule #0, The GM is always right.

FACTS. This is why I didnt make a big deal when he stopped me from using it, but I waited until after the session to talk to him about it. If he persists in his ruling, I will ask to be allowed to swap out for different feats.

If your GM still thinks your numbers are high, you can ask him to compare to a trip specialist.

A trip just needs to beat your opponent's CMD to knock him prone. Overrun has to beat the CMD by 5 to knock the opponent prone. Even if you have +6 from both Improved Overrun and Bulette Style, someone with only Improved Trip still has a better chance to knock his opponent prone.

** spoiler omitted **

I will take what you said in the spoiler as future advice. Lol!

If your GM still thinks your numbers are high, you can ask him to compare to a trip specialist.

A trip just needs to beat your opponent's CMD to knock him prone. Overrun has to beat the CMD by 5 to knock the opponent prone. Even if you have +6 from both Improved Overrun and Bulette Style, someone with only Improved Trip still has a better chance to knock his opponent prone.

** spoiler omitted **

GREAT point! I will mention this to him. He is very reasonable.

They do stack. It's a total of +6 from the two feats.

(Bulette Charge Style is a little awkwardly worded. You only get the +4 bonus if you are wearing heavy armor. You can get that bonus regardless of your class. If you are wearing light or medium armor AND have the armor training class feature you get a lower bonus. But all are in addition to the bonus from Improved Overrun.)

Bonus question: No. It can be done "during your move or as part of a charge." Charge has to be a straight line but move does not. Bear in mind that the overrun attempt takes a standard action, so if you knock your enemy prone you don't have a standard left to attack with.

Ok, Thanks and thanks for answering the bonus question. And yes, I know that I cant attack in the same round that I Overrun (except for attack of opportunity).

I've built an overrun specialist for the home game I'm playing in and the first time I used it, my GM was like "whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on!" He really didn't like the ease with which I was bowling over enemies!
So he examined my character sheet closely now, and the only thing he noticed was that he doesn't think that the bonus for Improved Overrun should stack with the bonus from Bulette Charge Style.

Improved Overrun says:

You are skilled at running down your foes.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to overrun you. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver.

Bulette Charge Style says:
You use the weight of your armor to enhance the momentum of your charge.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, proficiency with heavy armor.

Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks to overrun an opponent. Any magic ability or material that reduces your armor check penalty also reduces the bonus you gain for this style.
Special: A character with the armor training class feature can use Bulette Charge Style while wearing any type of armor with which she is proficient. Medium armor grants a +3 bonus, and light armor grants a +2 bonus.

Do these bonuses stack? I seem to recall that UNTYPED bonuses stack but I may be wrong.

Bonus question: Does an Overrun attempt have to be in a straight line?

Soapbox wrote:

The reason I am building a 6th level character: I used to play some years ago and then the pandemic decimated our lodge.

During this time, I took a job that was 90% travel.
In the course of one of many moves, I lost all my PFS documentation...everything!
So now I have a new job and have settled in a specific area.
I went to the local PFS lodge and started playing at level one.
While I was playing, I bemoaned the loss of my old characters to the VC of the lodge.
Well, he told me that if I pull up my old data on the Paizo website under Organized Play, and I can demonstrate that I had been issued those chronicles I lost, and that I had adequate Fame for the level of the character, then I can rebuild my character(s) and continue playing them from where I left off! Isnt that nice?
So my highest level 2E character was a 6th level Barbarian. I am trying to rebuild him fairly, hence the questions in my OP.

It sounds like you want the Remaster rebuild guide's gold table. This is for characters taking advantage of the one free rebuild they gave out for the Remaster. As long as your character played a reported game before November 15, 2023 and haven't rebuilt already, you'll just have the gold from the relevant line of the table.

Oh, Wow! Thats exactly what I need! Thank you so much.

The reason I am building a 6th level character: I used to play some years ago and then the pandemic decimated our lodge.
During this time, I took a job that was 90% travel.
In the course of one of many moves, I lost all my PFS documentation...everything!
So now I have a new job and have settled in a specific area.
I went to the local PFS lodge and started playing at level one.
While I was playing, I bemoaned the loss of my old characters to the VC of the lodge.
Well, he told me that if I pull up my old data on the Paizo website under Organized Play, and I can demonstrate that I had been issued those chronicles I lost, and that I had adequate Fame for the level of the character, then I can rebuild my character(s) and continue playing them from where I left off! Isnt that nice?
So my highest level 2E character was a 6th level Barbarian. I am trying to rebuild him fairly, hence the questions in my OP.

Does anyone know if there is a PFS-specific wealth-by-level chart somewhere? I tried searching for it but the closest I could find was on Archives of Nethys, but that one is not PFS specific and I seem to recall that wealth in PFS was a bit behind the curve on average.
Also, I'm building a 6th level PFS Barbarian and I need to know what is an appropriate load out at that level... Can I choose magic items of my level or lower all willy nilly, or is there some rails I need to follow that would limit my choices?

Also, I believe Gnomes are much shorter than Halflings. I think Halflings come up to about waist-high on a typical Human while Gnomes only come up about knee-high, right?

Soapbox wrote:

Oh! That would be better. What resource book is the gakgung in? Also, is it PFS legal?

Gakgung. It is in Treasure Vault, and is marked as PFS Standard and common rarity. And has the Monk trait, so it works with Monastic Archer stance.

Thank you so much for this advice! I had no idea any Monk bows existed yet. I will definitely switch to it. Thanks again.

Yes, but you shouldn't use the short bow. Use the gakgung. Its a 1d6/propulsive/d8 deadly/monk bow with 100ft range. The flurry of blows only works for half the first range increment, so you trade a 1D10 for 1D8 deadly and get 20ft extra range on your flurry of blows with the bow.

Oh! That would be better. What resource book is the gakgung in? Also, is it PFS legal?

Yes.

"Any time an ability is specifically restricted to a longbow, such as Erastil's favored weapon, it also applies to composite longbows unless otherwise stated."

From the description of Composite Longbow.

Same for Composite Shortbow.

Thank you very much!

I've started playing a Monk using Monastic Archer Stance using a composite shortbow. Monastic Archer Stance feat imparts proficiency with shortbows and longbows. However, it recently occurred to me that proficiency with shortbow and longbow does not necessarily mean I have proficiency with composite bows. So my question is, does proficiency in bows mean I'm also proficient with composite bows?

Small note on that- Firing through a creature's square(ally or enemy) gives anything behind it lesser cover(so a +1 circumstance to AC). But that can be avoided by lining up your shots without something in between.

Noted. Thank you. I built a ranged character as my first 2E character but dont know anything much about the rules.

There is no such penalty in 2ae, so you don't need anything to avoid it.

Excellent! No feat-tax!

"Precise Shot" is no longer a feat in 2E so far as I can tell, so how does a ranged combatant avoid the penalty for firing into melee (-4, I believe)? Or is it that this penalty is no longer a thing as well?

Soapbox wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

I am a bit disappointed one can't punch while wielding a bow. :/

I guess you could still kick :)

Thanks for answering my question. Here's another:

When I Flurry as part of a full attack, is my multiple attack penalty
0, 0, 5, 10
or
0, 5, 10, 15?

In Monastic Archer Stance, you specifically can't kick, or punch with the hand that isn't holding the bow, for that matter. That's the restriction the stance brings that doesn't apply to any bow wielder who isn't using that stance.

As for the MAP
0, -5, -10, -10.

MAP maxes out and is the same for the 3rd attack and all subsequent attacks.

Oh, wow, that IS a big bummer! I guess one would have to dismiss the stance in order to punch or kick. Does dismissing the stance take an action?

There is no full attack. You could use flurry of blows and then make two more strikes, but that' doesn't have a special name. Flurry of Blows interacts with the multiple attqck penalty normally, so the second strike will be at a greater penalty unless you'd already made two attacks before in the turn.

Ah! Im new to 2E, still learning the nuances. Thanks

I am a bit disappointed one can't punch while wielding a bow. :/

I guess you could still kick :)

Thanks for answering my question. Here's another:

When I Flurry as part of a full attack, is my multiple attack penalty
0, 0, 5, 10
or
0, 5, 10, 15?

Monastic Archer Stance says, "While in this stance, the only Strikes
you can make are those using longbows, shortbows, or bows
with the monk trait. You can use Flurry of Blows with these
bows. You can use your other monk feats or monk abilities
that normally require unarmed attacks with these bows when
attacking within half the first range increment (normally 50
feet for a longbow and 30 feet for a shortbow), so long as the
feat or ability doesn’t require a single, specific Strike."

Does this mean that I can Flurry of Blows by shooting arrows, or does it mean that I use the bow itself as a melee weapon to do melee attacks?

Im thinking its the former rather than the latter since it mentions range increments.

Wow, so many great responses! Thank you all for talking me out of this! I didn't realize that witch was so vulnerable. And you guys caught that I had messed up and gone 18 STR when thats not (normally) possible.
I still kinda want to do it anyway BUT I wont because I dont want to be a drag on the party.
Thank you all for your thoughtful input!

I'm STILL waiting (its been over 2 months) for our first 2E campaign to start, and so I got bored and started building back-up characters. One idea I had, and really like, is that of a Witch that uses an Orc Necksplitter wading into melee combat (after casting Mystic Armor of course).
So I made the character, and in my head it works well but I'm worried that its wishful thinking. I gave her 18 STR and 16 INT and her other scores are unremarkable.

Does this seem like a bad idea? I'm thinking she could take Fighter dedication too which might help.

Nope, you should still be fine to cast spells. That's a mechanic from PF1E, inherited from D&D 3.5, which hasn't crossed over into PF2E. Dunno if it's in 5E or not, but either way you're fine.

Heck, you could still cast spells with a negative charisma if you wanted to. As a champion you may not even notice much difference, at least if you're using LoH exclusively to heal, or Shields of the Spirit, or domains that don't care about save DCs.

EXCELLENT!

I'm creating a Champion with the Deity's Domain feat. However, he will only have a 10 Charisma. Can a Champion with +0 attribute modifier still cast spells? I understand that his Spell DC's will be super low but is there any reason that this won't work at all?

Soapbox wrote:

Thats... a great idea! Ruffian that acts like a barbarian. But then I should take Barbarian dedication, right?

I would suggest that you make more of a distinction between what character you want to play and what you would like mechanically.

You can be an angry person and have that represented by any number of classes.
Or wielding a big stick and have that supported by a variety of classes.

A barbarian with rogue archetype will be a sturdy frontline damage dealer with some extras, while a Rogue is a bit more fragile (less hp), but offers more skills - and is probably better off without barbarian archetype.
Also depends on your game, if you play with free archetype its a lot easier, of course.

I see what you mean. Since I started this thread I've looked deeper into the character build and I feel like I probably don't want any Barbarian dedication feats on this character... The Rogue feats are just too good. I think now that I can accomplish what I intended just by going full Rogue Ruffian that's focused on Intimidation.

Note that if you score a critical w/ a pick, the weapon die increases too high to allow your Sneak Attack. A Deadly weapon might be preferable to a Fatal one. A pick's higher critical could make up for it, but it's something to note.

This is exactly the kind of info I came here for. Thank you so much, I wouldn't have known otherwise.

Deadly Dice have nothing to do with ruffians die limit. Fatal does.

There was nothing like an official resolution on that. There are still people who try to claim that Fatal and Two-Hand traits bypass the limit.

Those claims are still not correct. Fatal disabling sneak attack still feels wrong.

I hadn't considered this. Good catch! I will rethink it.

All these suggestions are making me much more confident in my character concept! I think I will go with the Ruffian w/Barbarian Dedication, and focus around Intimidation using Intimidating Glare. Im thinking he will fight with a shield boss and a pick. His primary attribute will be Strength.
The idea is that he's this guy that is precise and detail oriented but if he becomes frustrated (like say, in combat) he will fly off the handle and just start wrecking stuff.
Think "Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

+1d6 is still +1d6, and for only two feats (and access to some other excellent feats including a bonus to Reflex saves which is the Barbarian's lowest). PF2 has a tight power curve so +1d6 is about as well as one can do w/ an MCD (and it's on a Barbarian which is near the top of the offensive power curve already).

If a non-Rogue could poach Sneak Attack in full that'd break the math, and frankly everybody would kinda have to take Rogue MCD simply to keep up. And then take other MCDs to steal the shtick of as many other classes as they could. As it is you can get about +2 damage from a martial Dedication, and only some of them at that. And often at the cost of an action. So the +1d6 that only relies on positioning which you already want is one of the best!

The caveat is you need a finesse weapon (though you don't need to use Dex w/ it if you don't want), and you don't want an agile weapon as that lowers your Rage bonus. So rapier's a good choice, noting that so much of a Barbarian's damage comes from Rage that the die size of their weapon is less important, though this also means you'll have a free hand which you're going to want to utilize (or it's all a wash anyway vs. a two-handed weapon). Note that the Rogue MCD is valuable enough w/o taking Sneak Attack, so if you don't have a use for that free hand (like say a shield, extensive use of Athletics, or whatnot) then there's not even an obligation to take Sneak Attack. Which is as it should be IMO.

Also one could build a Ruffian Rogue who calls themself a barbarian if you prefer Sneak Attack > Rage.

Thats... a great idea! Ruffian that acts like a barbarian. But then I should take Barbarian dedication, right? This makes way more sense. Thank you!

I'm new to 2E and am building a character for an upcoming campaign. One of my ideas is a Barbarian with Sneak Attack. But when I read what the Rogue dedication feat grants the character, it seems to me that they never get more than 1d6 Sneak Attack die... am I reading that correctly? If so, what is the use of Sneak Attack that doesn't grow with the character?