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It would be interesting, and realistic, if there were some minor dispute that the PCs took part in that escalated until full war so that they were involved every step along the way. Uncertain how much agency they would have over the war itself or side they given the extra labor involved, but I'd prefer watching it unfold around me (and grow with it) even w/o said agency over the war having already unfolded and low-level PCs somehow contributing during every step of their development (in the shadow of thousands of superior characters).
So maybe PCs help with a romantic entanglement in Book 1 involving warring houses (yeah, Romeo & Juliet unintentionally springs to mind) where the houses use either success or failure of the romance as an excuse to escalate tensions...right into book 2 where the houses fight more openly, yet have allies, or even mutual enemies that mean the houses have to reconcile to survive. Put said houses near a contentious border, give them diplomatic/marital links that pull in third parties (who as noted above might simply be waiting for a pseudo-righteous banner to fly for their cause).
"Could we have done anything to stop this?!" vs.
"Wow, we were sure lucky to have been in the right place at the right time so consecutively."
Given the atrocities of ongoing wars, I wonder how grim Paizo will go. And part of me wonders if killing off Gorum was a comment on NOT glorifying war like he did. Having GMed a PF1 scenario where an accompanying lauded NPC hero has severe PTSD that shapes the whole storyline makes me think this war might go quite bleak.
(The NPC's situation was such that a new player whispered to one of my regulars he was friends with to check on my well-being. He'd thought he'd disturbed me personally.)
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Still hoping that PFS/ previously known as Good PCs can empathize with the Cheliax side at some point on some topic.
I find one-dimensional good or evil sides absolutely boring as far as mortals are concerned.
Is it your position that Golarion isn't just black and white?
How can that possibly be???
(I'm being facetious in case it wasn't obvious)
BTW, in case it's also not clear, I agree with you 100%.
Still hoping that PFS/ previously known as Good PCs can empathize with the Cheliax side at some point on some topic.
I find one-dimensional good or evil sides absolutely boring as far as mortals are concerned.
It should be simple much like one might differentiate the Kremlin vs. the Russian populace (especially east of Moscow). In many populations there's an idle majority eking out their lives. Adding Chelaxian NPCs who just want to get by/survive the draft/escape the front/or otherwise be sympathetic should be expected. I think the more difficult part will be the PCs keeping their humanity vs. so many human(-ish) enemies. Most conscript troops (unless facing an existential threat or driven by ideological fervor) resist engaging with enemies or killing, with their main loyalty being to the soldiers beside them. And then there's the major role of morale, where troops often break far before typical RPG kill levels. Not sure where Paizo will draw such lines or how many die-hard or non-human substitutes will be feasible.
I'm now thinking about the former slaves and Chelaxian members of the Bellflowers (esp. those w/ status) and what roles they'll play. And who knows what corrupt entities might fester within Andoran ranks (especially those of allies).
And there's the major hurdle of making this about (recurring) individuals. Are we looking at a Skull & Shackles situation?
I find one-dimensional good or evil sides absolutely boring as far as mortals are concerned.
But, I mean, the perspective of a "Good person" who lives in Cheliax would be something involving how the House of Thrune (and perhaps most of the Aristocracy) needs to be replaced, perhaps violently. So it's not like you'd sign up to fight on the side of literal devils here.
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I find one-dimensional good or evil sides absolutely boring as far as mortals are concerned.But, I mean, the perspective of a "Good person" who lives in Cheliax would be something involving how the House of Thrune (and perhaps most of the Aristocracy) needs to be replaced, perhaps violently. So it's not like you'd sign up to fight on the side of literal devils here.
Assuming you have a choice. Cheliax may practice conscription, and if it does then it surely employs devil MPs to summarily deal with draft-resisters, draft-dodgers, and deserters.
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And the mess with the Glorious Reclamation is still recent, so even some of Thrune's detractors might tell Andoran the shove it, especially if they know about the Lumber Consortium BS.
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As someone who finds the idea of a post-Thrune Cheliax to be way less interesting or narratively compelling than the "good" ol' devil empire we have currently, I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of this war being framed entirely around toppling the current Chelaxian regime.
If we're doing a war story, I want something in the vein of a Gundam series (sans mecha), where both sides legitimately have a point about the causes of the war and what is needed to end it that "good" characters can get behind even while recognizing the bad actors among their ranks and the atrocities committed in the name of their cause.
I imagine the ending of the war after Cheliax loses is not going to be "Cheliax is a good place now" but "Cheliax is deeply unstable- even if parts of it are better, other parts are much worse."
Since the history of Pathfinder, Cheliax has served as "the stable authoritarian country where the evil people are in charge" but they don't really do much in the metaplot sense than "be menacing" and "take 'L's." "Cheliax falls into chaos" is more interesting than "Cheliax just continues as is."
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I imagine the ending of the war after Cheliax loses is not going to be "Cheliax is a good place now" but "Cheliax is deeply unstable- even if parts of it are better, other parts are much worse."
Since the history of Pathfinder, Cheliax has served as "the stable authoritarian country where the evil people are in charge" but they don't really do much in the metaplot sense than "be menacing" and "take 'L's." "Cheliax falls into chaos" is more interesting than "Cheliax just continues as is."
I happen to like big, stable, evil, authoritarian Cheliax.
All you're suggesting is explicitly blowing it up and reducing one of the big power players in the Inner Sea to a chaotic morass of squabbling factions and civil wars (again) that will inevitably be under the thumb of various neighboring powers for years to come.
It's like taking a painstakingly crafted lego model, smashing it into its component pieces, and telling those of us that liked it to be satisfied with all the cool stuff that can be built with it now.
If you want a menacing evil empire that keeps taking Ls to start doing more in the metaplot, let it get a W or two every once in a while - a Cheliax with some wind in its sails is FAR more interesting to me than torching the whole thing and hoping something compelling can rise out of its ashes.
Nearly a decade ago. Great job big bad scary evil country.
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Also was against a homegrown rebellion that managed to take and hold (however briefly) the old capital of Westcrown and occurred at roughly the same that Ravounel was engaging in their ultimately successful secession.
Sure, it was a win, but Cheliax/House Thrune still walked away with one heck of a black eye.
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It was the opposite of a pyrrhic victory. It revealed and caused the removal of a number of internal enemies, it turned its most troublesome province into a reluctant allied nation, it forced the Church of Asmodeus and House Thrune to stop playing quite so many games with each other, and it gave them a strong drive for real victories.
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I don't know if I count Hell's Vengeance as a W, more like not taking as bad an L for once. A clear, unambiguous W is long overdue I think.
And as someone who hasn't been particularly interested in Andoran, a Chelaxian occupation of Andoran might get my attention. Especially if it brings Cheliax's functional borders right up against Taldor's, and sets up a protracted Cold War before the even bigger conflict that I've often thought would be perfect, with Cheliax as a fading great power trying to revive its fortunes, while Taldor's star is on the ascent but still fragile as it recovers from centuries of decline. Taldor funding and supporting the Andoran resistance, supporting an Andoran government-in-exile, Cheliax recruiting its own Quislings and Petains and consolidating the Lumber Consortium under the Chellish banner, the Andoran colonies going independent and having to rely more on their Segadan neighbours to fight of Chelaxian ships trying to assert their dominance, that sets up a very cool future status leading up to Inner Sea War II. Especially since, given their histories, most Inner Sea powers have no reason to look more kindly on a resurgent Taldor than they do Cheliax's waning iron grip. At least Cheliax has been doing something to oppose the Whispered Tyrant.
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It was the opposite of a pyrrhic victory. It revealed and caused the removal of a number of internal enemies, it turned its most troublesome province into a reluctant allied nation, it forced the Church of Asmodeus and House Thrune to stop playing quite so many games with each other, and it gave them a strong drive for real victories.
To be sure, it was absolutely a win. But it was still an internal uprising, and House Thrune wants to look like its hegemony and infernal dealings are keeping Cheliax stable.
Even though they are arguably in a better position now than they were before, the Glorious Reclamation and the secession of Ravounel make it look like they didn't have their own house in order. It makes them look weaker and more fragile than they actually are, and that plays into the perception of their role in the coming Inner Sea War.
Cheliax marshalling for war should make people think "How are we going to stop them and what will we lose in the attempt?", not "Well, guess it's finally time to go put down Abby."
I don't know if I count Hell's Vengeance as a W, more like not taking as bad an L for once. A clear, unambiguous W is long overdue I think.
And as someone who hasn't been particularly interested in Andoran, a Chelaxian occupation of Andoran might get my attention. Especially if it brings Cheliax's functional borders right up against Taldor's, and sets up a protracted Cold War before the even bigger conflict that I've often thought would be perfect, with Cheliax as a fading great power trying to revive its fortunes, while Taldor's star is on the ascent but still fragile as it recovers from centuries of decline. Taldor funding and supporting the Andoran resistance, supporting an Andoran government-in-exile, Cheliax recruiting its own Quislings and Petains and consolidating the Lumber Consortium under the Chellish banner, the Andoran colonies going independent and having to rely more on their Segadan neighbours to fight of Chelaxian ships trying to assert their dominance, that sets up a very cool future status leading up to Inner Sea War II. Especially since, given their histories, most Inner Sea powers have no reason to look more kindly on a resurgent Taldor than they do Cheliax's waning iron grip. At least Cheliax has been doing something to oppose the Whispered Tyrant.
I'd be down for that.
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Morhek, an Andoran resistance feels...right somehow, like it gives Cheliax cred, and revives a similar feel to the Bellflowers. Definitely makes the region more dynamic, and with the Whispering Tyrant pressing in the North, it's up to heroes to rise up more than crusades.
One would have to determine how grim wants to get, but it is a war AP and Golarion's steeped in grim elements, it's just nice to have sanctuaries too (though maybe nicer if PCs had to carve them out).
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It genuinely feels unlikely that Cheliax is going to prevail here, since the Pathfinder Society is throwing its weight against Cheliax (what with Thrune closing the lodges in her country) and we know how much weight they carry in the metaplot.
I'd like to see Cheliax start to expand. Formally incorporating Isger into greater Cheliax is a decent start, but actually going into Molthune to take it by force would be interesting.
Making Nidal nervous would ALWAYS be cool in my book.
Formally absorbing Isger would probably be allowed. An unprovoked annexation of Molthune would risk drawing in the Lake Encarthan alliance. Molthune is not a canonical member, but such a move would make the members very nervous. They'd be caught the the lich and the devils, and that's not a fun place to be.
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I'm selfishly very interested to see what all this means for Khari and a potential Rahadoum front. This war won't stick to southern Avistan, I expect, and those more distant aftershocks are where some of the most interesting storylines are hiding.
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Morhek, an Andoran resistance feels...right somehow, like it gives Cheliax cred, and revives a similar feel to the Bellflowers. Definitely makes the region more dynamic, and with the Whispering Tyrant pressing in the North, it's up to heroes to rise up more than crusades.
You could even make the Andoran resistance a coalition of the old Bellflower Network, the Eagle Knights, and the Firebrands, plus a few others, coming together in an uneasy alliance against a common enemy. As Andor shows, there's a lot of appetite for stories about ragtag groups coming together to fight an evil empire, and the kind of internecine jockeying for power and influence, even in the name of a greater good, that can create storytelling fodder.
Which all assumes Cheliax actually wins. I'm of the opinion that you don't make a potentially status quo shaking move unless you're actually willing to shake up the status quo, but then I'm the guy who thought they should have run the Vidrian revolution or the abolition of slavery across the Inner Sea as published events that players could affect, not off-screen changes. It's possible the adventure ends with an open-ended stalemate.
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Speaking of the Whispering Tyrant, I could see Cheliax, Andoran, etc. joining together to fight a CLEAR danger to the entire Inner Sea area.
Sure, Devils are dangerous and evil, but a threat like Tar Baphon's undead hoards is an immediate threat to EVERYBODY.
The fight against the undead from beyond the Wall in Game of Thrones comes to mind here.
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Speaking of the Whispering Tyrant, I could see Cheliax, Andoran, etc. joining together to fight a CLEAR danger to the entire Inner Sea area.
Sure, Devils are dangerous and evil, but a threat like Tar Baphon's undead hoards is an immediate threat to EVERYBODY.
The fight against the undead from beyond the Wall in Game of Thrones comes to mind here.
This consideration is exactly what has kept everyone from dogpiling on Cheliax for the last six years, but it seems no one finds it persuasive any longer.
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This consideration is exactly what has kept everyone from dogpiling on Cheliax for the last six years, but it seems no one finds it persuasive any longer.
I mean, the Whispering Tyrant is going to be more patient than the conventional powers trying to make the argument "we should put aside our differences and band together to defend against the Whispering Tyrant's inevitable next move".
In fact, the Whispering Tyrant's specific goal might be to wait until several of the powers between him and the Starstone Cathedral weaken themselves naturally, and then strike. It would not be at all surprising if the Whsipering Way is actively trying to foment this conflict.
It genuinely feels unlikely that Cheliax is going to prevail here, since the Pathfinder Society is throwing its weight against Cheliax (what with Thrune closing the lodges in her country) and we know how much weight they carry in the metaplot.
While Cheliax is one of the few that outright kicked them out, many nations would like the Pathfinder Society to be more careful, then there is the Aspis thing.
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then there is the Aspis thing.
There's another reason to give Cheliax a win: setting up the Aspis Society, whose headquarters are based in it, as a bigger threat as a rival group to the Pathfinders. Which Cheliax's star on the rise, they would likely benefit from either official patronage or the removal of competition, and you could use the unofficial covert war between the Pathfinders and Aspis Agents as a proxy for the bigger conflict.
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It genuinely feels unlikely that Cheliax is going to prevail here, since the Pathfinder Society is throwing its weight against Cheliax (what with Thrune closing the lodges in her country) and we know how much weight they carry in the metaplot.While Cheliax is one of the few that outright kicked them out, many nations would like the Pathfinder Society to be more careful, then there is the Aspis thing.
The observation that "whichever side the Pathfinder Society ends up on is likely to prevail" is less about actual geopolitics and more that the actions of the Pathfinder Society in the metaplot will he modeled in PFS scenarios and you don't really want to just tell your dedicated organized play people that everything they did was pointless due to editorial fiat.
Like when PFS sets out to do something over the course of a season, that thing usually happens.
It genuinely feels unlikely that Cheliax is going to prevail here, since the Pathfinder Society is throwing its weight against Cheliax (what with Thrune closing the lodges in her country) and we know how much weight they carry in the metaplot.While Cheliax is one of the few that outright kicked them out, many nations would like the Pathfinder Society to be more careful, then there is the Aspis thing.The observation that "whichever side the Pathfinder Society ends up on is likely to prevail" is less about actual geopolitics and more that the actions of the Pathfinder Society in the metaplot will he modeled in PFS scenarios and you don't really want to just tell your dedicated organized play people that everything they did was pointless due to editorial fiat.
Like when PFS sets out to do something over the course of a season, that thing usually happens.
Maybe we shouldn't conflate Pathfinder Society the faction with Society Play here.
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Maybe we shouldn't conflate Pathfinder Society the faction with Society Play here.
I mean, they've solicited the PFS scenarios that start the season, which is how we can infer "what the Pathfinder Society thinks".
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It genuinely feels unlikely that Cheliax is going to prevail here, since the Pathfinder Society is throwing its weight against Cheliax (what with Thrune closing the lodges in her country) and we know how much weight they carry in the metaplot.While Cheliax is one of the few that outright kicked them out, many nations would like the Pathfinder Society to be more careful, then there is the Aspis thing.The observation that "whichever side the Pathfinder Society ends up on is likely to prevail" is less about actual geopolitics and more that the actions of the Pathfinder Society in the metaplot will he modeled in PFS scenarios and you don't really want to just tell your dedicated organized play people that everything they did was pointless due to editorial fiat.
Like when PFS sets out to do something over the course of a season, that thing usually happens.
The Pathfinder Society fought against agents of Tar-Baphon in the tie-ins for Tyrant's Grasp and is arguably why the heroes of that AP even had the opportunity to defeat him at all. None of that saved Lastwall or stopped the Whispering Tyrant's return to power in the Gravelands.
Just because the PFS is throwing in on one side of the conflict doesn't mean that side is guaranteed to win - it's possible their contributions will be the difference between Cheliax securing a limited victory and utterly steamrolling over the other powers of the Inner Sea.
On a more personal note, it does nonetheless continue a frustrating trend of discouraging any Chelaxian PFS character that isn't actively fighting against their homeland in some way. Even if I were able to find an active PFS group in my area and find a 2e build that works for her, my main PFS character is now squarely in the position where staying true to her character and established loyalties means I just flat out can't play her anymore.
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The Pathfinder Society fought against agents of Tar-Baphon in the tie-ins for Tyrant's Grasp and is arguably why the heroes of that AP even had the opportunity to defeat him at all. None of that saved Lastwall or stopped the Whispering Tyrant's return to power in the Gravelands.
Just because the PFS is throwing in on one side of the conflict doesn't mean that side is guaranteed to win - it's possible their contributions will be the difference between Cheliax securing a limited victory and utterly steamrolling over the other powers of the Inner Sea.
This is just vibes, but Cheliax doesn't feel as "pushed" a villain as Tar-Baphon, if that makes sense? Like the setting could afford to lose it and keep chugging along without something else taking its narrative place.
Like the thing about Villains in an ongoing story that is not building to a specific conclusion is that you need for villains to lose both because "good triumphing over evil" is generally satisfying to the reader and in order to make room for new villains. Like we closed the Worldwound, but then Tar-Baphon got out. When Tar-Baphon gets put down for good, almost certainly something worse is going to crop up.
So even if the Thrune dynasty were ended completely, there is very little that Cheliax has contributed to the ongoing story that couldn't be replaced going forward with an expansionist Molthune or Mzali or Oprak if they wanted. I'm all for putting the "devil-themed" villains in the background for a while so we can have other problems, just like how Batman has to beat the Joker from time to time so we can tell stories about Bane or Clayface or the Riddler.
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Like the thing about Villains in an ongoing story that is not building to a specific conclusion is that you need for villains to lose both because "good triumphing over evil" is generally satisfying to the reader and in order to make room for new villains. Like we closed the Worldwound, but then Tar-Baphon got out. When Tar-Baphon gets put down for good, almost certainly something worse is going to crop up.
So even if the Thrune dynasty were ended completely, there is very little that Cheliax has contributed to the ongoing story that couldn't be replaced going forward with an expansionist Molthune or Mzali or Oprak if they wanted. I'm all for putting the "devil-themed" villains in the background for a while so we can have other problems, just like how Batman has to beat the Joker from time to time so we can tell stories about Bane or Clayface or the Riddler.
To say nothing of the fact that you can still have Hellknight baddies without a Chelish state - though I don't honestly expect Cheliax or Thrune to go away anytime soon, myself.
(That said... I'd *love* to see us finally get back to Mzali. Strength of Thousands all but outright said "hey, we'll get to this story for real someday, just not right now," and that's been a tough wait!)
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(That said... I'd *love* to see us finally get back to Mzali. Strength of Thousands all but outright said "hey, we'll get to this story for real someday, just not right now," and that's been a tough wait!)
There are tons of little nuggets of goodness sprinkled around the setting that I'd love to see what's going on with.
Are Choral (and his cohorts in 'House Rorgavia') all locked up inside Skywatch in northern Brevoy, waiting to burst free and go all fiery dragon rampage on those treacherous Surtova bastards that locked him up and usurped control of his country?
Will PCs ever get a chance to repair and use a Hellfire Plume against a big threat? (Say, an undead horde from the Gravelands.) Will Sorshen or Belimarius help? Will the angry ghost of Alaznist need to be cajoled into 'helping' even if her idea of 'helping' is cackling madly while incinerating legions of (mutual) foes, one last chance from beyond the grave to demonstrate her wrath, protect 'her' territory, show off the superiority of her arcane power and work fiery destruction on masses of foes in the process?
Will the native population of Mendev rise up and displace the foreign occupiers who have been ruling their country in both fact and name for decades, while the worst among the foreign crusaders have been ruthlessly oppressing the natives and their culture? And will this 'native reconquista' be secretly fanned on by demon cultists, looking to punish the crusaders who shattered their dark dreams by sealing the Worldwound?
There's still plenty of stuff out there, like Mzali's situation, that could warrant some big adventuring fun.
Like the (inevitable?) return of Nex, and the ages-old cold war with Geb turning hot again...
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This is just vibes, but Cheliax doesn't feel as "pushed" a villain as Tar-Baphon, if that makes sense? Like the setting could afford to lose it and keep chugging along without something else taking its narrative place.
I believe the wrestling term is "over." Tar-Baphon is over at the moment, and has a very recent, very public and very status quo-affecting win under his belt, even if he didn't get the Starstone - destroying Lastwall and overrunning the Eye of Terror with undead hordes that forced some of its neighbours to ally against him. He feels powerful, a distant but omnipresent threat who demands to be taken seriously, and must be calculated into any geopolitical decision in Avistan. The same can't be said of Cheliax since it lost Sargava, even though it was meant to be an ideal Setting Bad Guy for the Inner Sea. But that could change, if Paizo puts Cheliax over.
The Whispered Tyrant is a very good example if we're thinking about a war that sets Cheliax up for a bit of a revival, since it shows how even the good guys technically "winning" can still set the villain up to be in a far more powerful position. There are plenty of good stories to tell where the "good guys," ie; Andoran and the Pathfinder Society, can "win" in their specific missions, while Cheliax still accomplishes almost all of its other goals. What could be Cheliax's clean conquest and dominance in Andoran could be turned into a messy occupation that still gives Andoran and the Pathfinders the chance for a long guerilla resistance and covert espionage operations, which sound like great plot bunnies to base Pathfinder Scenarios on. Go full French Resistance on Cheliax.
But in the meantime, having restored its international image Cheliax will still be exultant and powerful, in a position to dictate matters to its neighbours, and able to finally throw its weight around for a bit.
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Like the thing about Villains in an ongoing story that is not building to a specific conclusion is that you need for villains to lose both because "good triumphing over evil" is generally satisfying to the reader and in order to make room for new villains. Like we closed the Worldwound, but then Tar-Baphon got out. When Tar-Baphon gets put down for good, almost certainly something worse is going to crop up.
So even if the Thrune dynasty were ended completely, there is very little that Cheliax has contributed to the ongoing story that couldn't be replaced going forward with an expansionist Molthune or Mzali or Oprak if they wanted. I'm all for putting the "devil-themed" villains in the background for a while so we can have other problems, just like how Batman has to beat the Joker from time to time so we can tell stories about Bane or Clayface or the Riddler.
Due respect, but you're not talking about "defeating" Cheliax. Cheliax has been defeated loads of times - you yourself were previously bemoaning about how it was mainly known for being menacing and taking Ls.
What you're talking about is ending the Cheliax we've had for the entire lifetime of the Lost Omens setting and turning it into something else.
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The same can't be said of Cheliax since it lost Sargava, even though it was meant to be an ideal Setting Bad Guy for the Inner Sea. But that could change, if Paizo puts Cheliax over.
Cheliax has never held Sargava at any "present" of either the Pathfinder Campaign Setting or the Lost Omens Campaign Setting. As of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Chelish/Taldan minority rule held over the country, but it was not subordinated to the metropolitan government. Think South Africa or Rhodesia for most of the Cold War (and compare, say, Angola and Mozambique, which were subordinated to their metropolitan government before simultaneously achieving independence and native majority rule). As of the Lost Omens Campaign Setting, foreign minority rule had been overthrown and replaced with native majority rule. Think Zimbabwe in the 1980s or South Africa in the 1990s. Did you mean to say that Cheliax was never a factor in Avistani geopolitics, as far as the published setting went? I don't think you did.
Anyway, if Paizo is taking the World War I inspiration extremely seriously, like one-to-one parallelism seriously,[1] then Possible Cabbage's scenario of state collapse and the rise of competing powers, mirroring the postwar situations in Russia or Austria, looks quite plausible. It may be worth noting that the RSFSR and Bolshevik party in 1E, and the Hellknights in 1E and pre-remaster 2E, shared an alignment. I could see a protracted struggle where a Hellknight dictatorship holds the cities and slowly puts down centrifugal governments over the course of many in-setting years following the collapse of Thrune power.
On the other hand, Paizo is expressly pro-Romanov, so who knows?
[1] They almost certainly are not.
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Did you mean to say that Cheliax was never a factor in Avistani geopolitics, as far as the published setting went? I don't think you did.
Yes, actually. At least since I've been playing, which is about ten years or so now, the Chelaxian state has never felt like it was truly a threat. It has always been on the backfoot. When the Inner Sea begins as a setting, Cheliax has already been declining for a long time in-universe, and it never felt like it arrested that slide. Which is why I really hope Paizo use this opportunity to do so.
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Keep in mind that Cheliax has also outlawed chattel slavery.
I suspect that's going to come into play if only to make the Thrune regime look at at least somewhat sympathetic.
If Andoran goes too far in their "disagreements" with Cheliax, maybe it is they who wind up looking like the "bad guys."
That would certainly be a twist that would make the inner sea region a bit more interesting.
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Did you mean to say that Cheliax was never a factor in Avistani geopolitics, as far as the published setting went? I don't think you did.Yes, actually. At least since I've been playing, which is about ten years or so now, the Chelaxian state has never felt like it was truly a threat. It has always been on the backfoot. When the Inner Sea begins as a setting, Cheliax has already been declining for a long time in-universe, and it never felt like it arrested that slide. Which is why I really hope Paizo use this opportunity to do so.
While it's not quite as dire a non-threat as Zhentil Keep over in the Forgotten Realms (that evil city has been utterly razed like, what, *three times* over the last 20 years?), Cheliax does seem to be dying the death of a thousand cuts. And, IMO, it's long overdue. A state that has to redact it's own history, that has to oppress it's own people, is a state that *fears* it's own people, and that's not a sign of a state with the right people at the top.
About the only way I could see Cheliax rise right now is as the footstool to Asmodeus, making his grand play to open a new 'Worldwound,' leading this time, to Hell, with Cheliax as his beachhead into this plane (perhaps the closing of the Worldwound left some planar weakness that he could exploit to open a planar rift somewhere else, as stretching out the planar membrane to once more seal off Sarkoris left it weak to piercing somewhere else, say, Cheliax?).
But that sounds boring to me. We just got rid of a fiend-riddled apocalyptic hellscape in the Worldwound. Transplanting it to Cheliax with a different flavor of fiend (and fearful compliant humans charging in the van, half charging the enemy and half fleeing before their terrifying diabolic generals) seems repetitive.
As far as I know, Chelaxian territory is technically an Archduchy of Hell, and already counts as Hell's domain. Devils can already cross in and out of the Material Plane through conjurations by House Thrune and other diabolists through an equitable exchange of souls. If Hell wants to send its forces onto Golarion, it already has as much of a foothold as it could need, and mortal cannon fodder to throw at a problem before any fiend takes the field of battle - and as a bonus, many of those souls will then become new devils to further bolster its ranks. It might not be able to rush mass troops through a big portal, but devils are bigger planners than demons are anyway. Hell is happy to play the long game. More than that, I'm not sure why Asmodeus would WANT to open a bigger rift, since it risks retaliation in kind by the forces of Heaven. Hell is already pushing things with its patronage of Cheliax, and any escalation into a divine conflict risks breaking the cage of the Rough Beast, which Asmodeus is uninterested in dealing with as the rest of the gods.
I could, however, see some fiendish superweapon being involved, with potentially catastrophic effects. I heard a while ago that Cheliax was working on some kind of magical nuclear arms race post-Hell's Vengeance, but know nothing about it other than that vague description.
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About the only way I could see Cheliax rise right now is as the footstool to Asmodeus, making his grand play to open a new 'Worldwound,' leading this time, to Hell, with Cheliax as his beachhead into this plane (perhaps the closing of the Worldwound left some planar weakness that he could exploit to open a planar rift somewhere else, as stretching out the planar membrane to once more seal off Sarkoris left it weak to piercing somewhere else, say, Cheliax?).
We already know House Thrune doesn't want this. In The Inferno Gate (PF105), the PCs were tasked with shutting down an uncontrolled gate to Hell. It's not good for Thrune's control of Cheliax to have unsanctioned and uncontrolled devil incursions into its territory. Too much chaos (ironically) in that.
We already know House Thrune doesn't want this. In The Inferno Gate (PF105), the PCs were tasked with shutting down an uncontrolled gate to Hell. It's not good for Thrune's control of Cheliax to have unsanctioned and uncontrolled devil incursions into its territory. Too much chaos (ironically) in that.About the only way I could see Cheliax rise right now is as the footstool to Asmodeus, making his grand play to open a new 'Worldwound,' leading this time, to Hell, with Cheliax as his beachhead into this plane (perhaps the closing of the Worldwound left some planar weakness that he could exploit to open a planar rift somewhere else, as stretching out the planar membrane to once more seal off Sarkoris left it weak to piercing somewhere else, say, Cheliax?).
I was just about to reply that Hell doesn't want chaos, nor to control chaos. Sure, I think they initiated chaos to begin with so they could dupe Chelaxians into embracing diabolical order. But reverting to that would be a step backward. Trouble is, war is inherently chaotic, "plans never survive contact with the enemy" and such. So with their immortal patience and planning, there should be more to their strategy that hordes doing horde things. That'd also be boring (and conflict with Paizo's recommendations for Dungeon adventure submissions back in the day).
Also, who knows what will be player-facing. The PCs' story will likely focus on pivotal moments with pivotal people rather than mass clashes, even while those occur. I hope we don't have to build up armies and recruit sub-commanders like in some of the organization-building APs. That's a lot of wasted page space IMO which put so many eggs in one basket/mechanic that it's hard to make a balanced struggle: you kinda need to win before the conflict begins...which is pretty Sun Tzu, but not so grand for an RPG.