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I was playing Diablo 4 because of this play test class making me really want to play a necromancer somewhere, and was kind of thinking about how making undead "mages" appears to be a big part of the fantasy, but something extremely tricky to pull off for a class like this. Likewise Tiny Tina's Wonderlands has a class called the "Graveborn" that has a demolich companion that also casts spells. Typically in games it seems these are just undead that shoot projectiles, which is quite uninteresting in a ttrpg... but I was thinking, what if all the class's low level spellcasting got put into some kind of spellcaster thralls you could create via a feat somewhere in the mid levels. The class switches to bounded casting, but instead of something like studious spells, you can summon one or two thralls that have set spells memorized. During your daily preparations you creation a thrall or two with spells ranks up to -2, -3 or -4 prepared as the case may be. You get a set list of guys with thematic spells that you can choose from, and a later feat can maybe let you rotate them out midday
This is absolutely weaker than what we have now with more restrictions, but wins out on flavor and may give us a little more power budget to juice up thralls even more and still have a spellcasting fantasy
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Ehhh... I'd disagree on it being a big part of the fantasy. I would personally consider it something that detracts from the fantasy- the necromancer gets less of their own casting as a result.
Anyway, clearly the spells have to come from your daily allotment. You can't save actions doing it (since that would be a better Quicken Spell), and generally being able to send a spell from another location costs an action. Once the mage thrall uses its spell, there's not much for it to do.
... All of which points to this being a potential reflavoring for Reach of the Grave.
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I wouldn't be adverse to a pseudo-caster Thrall as a solution to the ranged problem , but I'd want them using Strikes right alongside skeleton archers and throwing meat or mucus. So for example, if instead of making X Thralls, you make X-Y Thralls (or sac a current Thrall) and you get a Thrall w/ a ranged Strike. Merely a solution to a problem like that, but I think it'd ramp up well if Paizo adds an ability to reuse a Thrall (which some players have already asked for).
But an actual caster? Heck no.
Plus I doubt Paizo wants to add much that adds complexity to a Thrall, much less slots, though as QuidEst mentioned, there might be a way to reinterpret Reach of the Grave in this way.
I was thinking like you'd make some floating skulls or something each morning and then each would have 1 spell of each rank up to your max rank -2 or something, but if it's too unnecessary and unwanted it's NBD. I just thought making caster undead would be sick
A Rank 5 Summon Undead can summon a Level 5 Skeletal Mage, though yeah the spell DC is low and it can't spend 3 actions on Magic Missile/Force Barrage. So it'd only be good vs. minions with a Weakness.
This should put it into perspective how strong getting another creature to cast spells at your own DC would be. And most feats that grant extra spells are stingy. To balance, these caster-thralls would have to draw from your own slots, and I doubt players would like that.
Not that the idea isn't cool, it's just untenable due to balance.
I was thinking like you'd make some floating skulls or something each morning and then each would have 1 spell of each rank up to your max rank -2 or something, but if it's too unnecessary and unwanted it's NBD. I just thought making caster undead would be sick
QuidEst nailed it though, since it’s coming out of your slots and uses your DC, this is just a reflavored “Reach of the Dead.” And honestly it’s questionable how much its even a reflavor; the description could very well be talking about your thrall doing the casting but using your magic, and exploding from the strain.
Which suggests a higher level feat where it doesn’t explode. Not sure what the actual effect should be, but revising Effortless Concentration so that it turns your thrall into a minion with the ability to do a sustain action on your behalf sounds…well actually it sounds kind of boring but well within the bounds of current feats.
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As someone who enjoys playing a Witch in Path of Exile 2, I too would like a way of differentiating thralls and having more caster-like thralls too, though I don't know how possible that would be to implement in TTRPG format, let alone on the Necromancer. Having lots of minions of different types is fine in a real-time video game that automates all of that, but that's the kind of thing that's more complicated to implement in a turn-based tabletop game, and I don't think the Necromancer tries to square that particular circle either. In fact, the class tries to differentiate thralls as little as possible besides the subclass buff, so unless you had a separate grim fascination where all of your thralls were mini-mages, I don't know if there's a clean way of implementing that in the class's current state.
I was more so thinking these would be closer to how the spontaneous spells for the animist work, but weaker, necro goes bounded casting etc. these would be always active thralls, rather than summoned in combat, and it would be a feat for around level 8-10-ish and basically be how you get limited lower level slots. If they're skulls like a demilich they'd just float around you, or act like a familiar, but actually, do any of the undead you can summon with summon undead have spells? I haven't checked but it kinda reminds me of how you might summon a unicorn for the heal spell, could just use the already existing summon undead spell
Well damn, now I wish I'd mentioned it in the open response portion of the survey--
But the way I would do it is to include one or a couple of Grave Spells that summon undead mages, but they work like Force Barrage, volleying out blasts of magic, and the more actions and higher level you are the more individual blasts are in the volley.
I think giving them actual casting would be kludgy, then again, I don't like casting on the core Necromancer and almost think it should be traded away for more grave spells and such-- I'd almost be tempted to say they should remove the core spellcasting and give you feats for undead servants that chill with you and provide multiclass spellcasting progression casting service at your direction.
Count me in for making thralls more individually interesting and impactful. Sticky melee thralls, archer thralls, caster thralls... it all sounds like a lot of fun.
I would err on the side of making caster thralls just do elemental/energy/force blasts and *maybe* some utility magic though. That's cool enough for me without making it a huge headache for everyone.
The way I see it is there would be bespoke ones with specific spells they have prepared that can't be changed and aren't limited to occult, but the class itself wouldn't cast many spells
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That might be too edgy to introduce now, and I wonder how many players would want their spellcasting dependent on Thralls or minions surviving.
Although, it would kind of neat if there was an advanced Reach of the Dead where you create a Thrall (instead of sac one) who appears to cast your spell even if mechanically it's yourself. Not sure I'd take it though.
The way I see it is there would be bespoke ones with specific spells they have prepared that can't be changed and aren't limited to occult, but the class itself wouldn't cast many spells
To be honest, I’m not sure this would be as satisfying for you as you imagine, unless these were cantrips instead of slotted spells. Because what happens to the Thrall once they’ve cast their spell? Just stand there? Plus there’s the issue of action costs; I don’t think they’ll introduce something that greatly breaks the action economy to allow more than 4 or 5 actions a round.
But what I do see possible is a minion that adds on to your spell casts. Perhaps 1pt additional void damage per spell rank, like sorcerer’s potency and some of their bloodline gifts. Since it depends on you having a particular minion up, and is locked to either void or (through master of life and death) vital damage, it might fly.
I too like the idea of thralls being more than potted plants. It’s just a matter of fitting them in to the current action economy, or figuring out safe ways to push the envelope (for which I count on the developers; opening new narrative and mechanical territory is what new classes are best used to accomplish). Your suggestion about using them as the lowest level of spell casts is pretty cool, but other options might work as well.
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To be honest, I’m not sure this would be as satisfying for you as you imagine, unless these were cantrips instead of slotted spells.
An idea would be that you can use Reach of the Dead on them without destroying them. That way they wouldn't be 'dead' weight after their spell is gone.
Better than nothing.
I just feel like he wants an all up minion, with its own actions that they can use to cast spells all day. It's not impossible, but that doesn't seem to be the design direction they're going with.
Admittedly, the idea of being able to cast 2 cantrips a round, or a spell and a cantrip (using your 3rd action to command and then the minion using their 2 actions to cast) seems cool and not very game-breaking. I'm hesitant because that's not really a thing yet, but I did just say that new classes are for pushing the envelope, so maybe I'm too hesitant.