Thralls and Manoeuvres

[siegfriedliner]

Currently there is a little uncertainty on what the DC for save based dcs (trip, tumble through etc) for thralls.

My take is that like AC if people use these maneuverd they get an automatic success but not a critical success.

So you can reliably tumble through them but they still are difficult terrain

It's worth noting that currently the focus spells thralls that move have no ability to stand up from prone so they probably need immunity to prone, grabbed or at least the ability to crawl, standup, escape ( probably using your spell attack).

[YuriP]

I understand you point but why you will care about to use an Escape/Stand action when you can create another thrall with same action and Strike?

About critical in manuvers if you was able to critical success a thrall with a Trip you will just kill it like as you Strike it. If you use Grab and critical hit you will restrain it but as I said before try to escape makes no sense when you can create a new thrall with one-action without any checks.

Basically debuff thralls is senseless due how cheap and fragile they are and the fact that most focus spell doesn't really make then attack but uses then as fuel.

[siegfriedliner]

YuriP wrote:

I understand you point but why you will care about to use an Escape/Stand action when you can create another thrall with same action and Strike?

About critical in manuvers if you was able to critical success a thrall with a Trip you will just kill it like as you Strike it. If you use Grab and critical hit you will restrain it but as I said before try to escape makes no sense when you can create a new thrall with one-action without any checks.

Basically debuff thralls is senseless due how cheap and fragile they are and the fact that most focus spell doesn't really make then attack but uses then as fuel.

Mainly just for the 40hp grappling thrall, the 200 hp whacking thrall and the 400 hp thrall that leaves smaller thralls in its wake.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Also tumble through is one of those things where it needs to be adressed because it is either 0 or 10 for the DC and that's weak. Allows many creature to ignore your thralls so they don't even pose as a 1 hit point auto hit wall.

[YuriP]

I think that's is the idea. Enemies trained or more in Acrobatics can easily ignore the thralls as barriers while those who aren't can have a chance to fail. Also specially in higher levels can become more easier to a necromancer put many thralls together blocking the Tumble Through completely once you can't use it to pass through more than one enemy.

[Finoan]

Thrall wrote:

A thrall has 1 Hit Point, is automatically hit by attacks, and automatically fails all saving throws.

Adding 10 to that save bonus to convert it into a save DC ...

I guess means that any maneuver action will automatically succeed (but not critically succeed).

[siegfriedliner]

Finoan wrote:

Thrall wrote:

A thrall has 1 Hit Point, is automatically hit by attacks, and automatically fails all saving throws.

Adding 10 to that save bonus to convert it into a save DC ...

I guess means that any maneuver action will automatically succeed (but not critically succeed).

That's my take.

[Errenor]

Finoan wrote:

Thrall wrote:

A thrall has 1 Hit Point, is automatically hit by attacks, and automatically fails all saving throws.

Adding 10 to that save bonus to convert it into a save DC ...

still doesn't make these checks saving throws. Which are rather specific checks. The question isn't whether you can make acceptable homerule, you can. The problem is that rules aren't complete.

[Finoan]

Errenor wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Thrall wrote:

A thrall has 1 Hit Point, is automatically hit by attacks, and automatically fails all saving throws.

Adding 10 to that save bonus to convert it into a save DC ...

still doesn't make these checks saving throws. Which are rather specific checks. The question isn't whether you can make acceptable homerule, you can. The problem is that rules aren't complete.

That is how it is calculated for PCs.

If an enemy wants to tumble through my PC character's space, they make an acrobatics check against my Reflex DC. My Reflex save bonus has a math expression used to calculate it. My Reflex DC is calculated by adding 10 to the Reflex bonus. And that is the value used for the Tumble Through DC.

If you have a different valid ruling, go ahead and present it. A rule is only ambiguous if there are multiple valid rulings available.

[siegfriedliner]

Errenor wrote:

Finoan wrote:

Thrall wrote:

A thrall has 1 Hit Point, is automatically hit by attacks, and automatically fails all saving throws.

Adding 10 to that save bonus to convert it into a save DC ...

still doesn't make these checks saving throws. Which are rather specific checks. The question isn't whether you can make acceptable homerule, you can. The problem is that rules aren't complete.

Your correct one of the reason I brought it up was so people might flag it in the playtest feedback.

But it's not an entirely awful assumption that a DC of 10 plus automatically fail saves (basically an amount that ensure they always fail but never critically fail) equals a DC of automatically succeeds but does not critically succeed. Especially given that is how attacks work for thralls.