With the release of Divine Mysteries, clerics and other divine casters have just become masters of swinging encounter numbers (and I mean more than just hit points).
For those who do not have Divine Mysteries yet, the 1st-rank benediction spell is essentially bless, but increases AC instead of attacks. The 1st-rank spell, malediction, is like bane, but it decreases enemy AC rather than attacks.
So in two rounds you can open up with benediction and bane to essentially swing the party's defense by 2 points in the party's favor. Alternatively, open up with bless and malediction to swing the party's offense by 2 points. The latter stacks with offguard as well, so as early as 1st-level your divine caster and a few flankers can swing the numbers by 4 points by round 2 for the rest of the fight. Suddenly everyone is a fighter. XD
Pretty cool if you ask me.
It's still worse than Bards.
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It's not worse; it's different. Bards swing wider, divine casters swing deeper (particularly at low levels). What's more, some of those spells effectively stack with bardic abilities, making for even more of a force multiplier.
A cleric who has a bard in the party with courageous anthem can just cast malediction in the opening round before watching the martials in the party just roll over the enemy.
If the bard casts dirge of doom, then the cleric can cast bless.
Teamwork makes the dream work. :)
Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.
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Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.
Subjective opinion. It all depends on what you're going for and what you enjoy.
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Swinging numbers by up to 2 will be hard. The area is really small for Bane and Malediction so you need to Sustain them to get enemies inside. And then, there's the save. And I don't speak of the time to cast all of that.
If the bard casts dirge of doom, then the cleric can cast bless.
Or the Bard can cast both Dirge of Doom and Bless and swing numbers by 2 in a single round :)
Cleric is a real power class now after the Remaster. I'm playing one right now and they are brutal. Lots of healing, bless is much better and sounds like it's getting even better. Lots of nice feats now. No longer needs charisma so can focus on four stats. Can blast for spirit damage which hits almost everything.
Cleric may be the most boosted class in the Remaster.
Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.
Outdated opinion. Divine list is the best list post-remaster and cleric is the strongest class
Clerics were already VERY strong, and Benediction/Malediction are another powerful tool in their toolkit. Not overwhelming or anything, but a welcome addition to a buffer/debuffer style character.
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Maestro Bards can do this as well*, with their 60 ft. auras, and without a saving throw. You just don't see them do it because the action cost to get it online is excessive unless you just want to be a stationary buff bot. Which, given the smaller size of the auras, is all our cleric is doing as well.
*Harmonize one composition cantrip, use lingering composition on another)
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*Harmonize one composition cantrip, use lingering composition on another)
Harmonize and Lingering Composition don't mesh well.
But as I said: Bless + Dirge of Doom and you swing the numbers by 2 in a single round. So the Cleric is still not at Bard level of buffing (which I consider normal, buffing is the Bard shtick, healing the Cleric one). I also don't understand why there's so much praise for Benediction and Malediction. Overall, they don't add much to Bane and Bless, not enough to change the Cleric's role.
I've also never understood the praise around the Cleric. But that's certainly a discussion for somewhere else.
While it's nice to see battle auras that modify AC, there seems to be this really wacky running notion that a character can realistically lay down all of these auras for massive accuracy differentials, when doing so would cost you 8 actions and 4 spell slots for a relative +2 to your team's Strikes and AC (assuming everything happens 10 feet from you and the enemy fails both their Will saves for bane and malediction). In my opinion, this isn't actually all that amazing when factoring in the costs, especially when as Squark mentioned, a Bard can spend a single action and zero daily resources to output power another caster would need a spell slot and six actions to emulate, without factoring in the benefit to damage rolls and saves. The same can be said for rallying anthem, and with one use of lingering composition and one of Harmonize, your Bard can produce far stronger benefits for your team for far fewer actions (and again, no daily resource expenditure).
I think there are two issues with these spells as written: the first is that these spells don't increase their status bonus or penalty as they heighten, so when divine and occult casters can already access heroism for an increasing bonus to all non-flat checks that they can cast prior to an encounter, bless in particular becomes increasingly more difficult to justify. The second is that because these spells cost two actions to cast, any hybrid caster who wants to use these benefits to then wade into combat and Strike is going to have a fair bit of trouble with just one remaining action (and good luck trying to do this every turn with a different aura). In my opinion, all of these spells could have benefited from some common changes, specifically:
I suppose this relates to the Battle Harbinger discussion too, but I feel that class archetype would've been much more attractive if these aura spells had been structured as above, instead of having similar power locked behind feats. A +1/-1 aura might certainly be nice on a 1st-rank spell, but at higher spell ranks, casters can easily do better.
Those spells are fine, for a rank 1 spell they are actually above average.
If I would rank that category of spells between themselves would be Bless > Malediction > Benediction > Bane.
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Those spells are fine, for a rank 1 spell they are actually above average.
If I would rank that category of spells between themselves would be Bless > Malediction > Benediction > Bane.
Yes, for rank 1 spells they are fine.
But I disagree with your ranking. Malediction and Bane are rather bad due to the small area and save. You should always choose Bless and Benediction over them and you should actually never get to the point where you'll need to cast one of them.Between Bless and Benediction it depends on the enemy. If the enemies are physical attackers then Benediction will beat Bless most of the time. If the enemies are using save-based attacks then Bless gets higher value. But overall Benediction should be better.
While it's nice to see battle auras that modify AC, there seems to be this really wacky running notion that a character can realistically lay down all of these auras for massive accuracy differentials, when doing so would cost you 8 actions and 4 spell slots for a relative +2 to your team's Strikes and AC (assuming everything happens 10 feet from you and the enemy fails both their Will saves for bane and malediction).
I don't believe anyone has made any such "wacky" claims. In general, I agree with you on this point, which is why I recommended casting only two of the four spells in a given encounter, depending on whether you wanted to focus on offense or defense.
...this isn't actually all that amazing when factoring in the costs, especially when as Squark mentioned, a Bard can spend a single action and zero daily resources to output power...
I mean, that's great if you happen to have a bard in the party.
It's notably powerful* because it's a new method for clerics to stack the numbers. As rare as stacking is in Pathfinder, it's usually going to be notable.
In any case, it's a great option because it remains useful if you have just a cleric or a bard and a cleric. The fact that they work together rather than stepping on each other's toes is a perk, not a condemnation that one is awesome and the other worthless.
Those spells are fine, for a rank 1 spell they are actually above average.
If I would rank that category of spells between themselves would be Bless > Malediction > Benediction > Bane.
Yes, for rank 1 spells they are fine.
But I disagree with your ranking. Malediction and Bane are rather bad due to the small area and save. You should always choose Bless and Benediction over them and you should actually never get to the point where you'll need to cast one of them.Between Bless and Benediction it depends on the enemy. If the enemies are physical attackers then Benediction will beat Bless most of the time. If the enemies are using save-based attacks then Bless gets higher value. But overall Benediction should be better.
The ability to force new saves as you expand the area doesn't make them all bad. In any case, I would recommend bless + malediction or bane + benediction over benediction + bless, depending on whether you're going offense or defense.
That said, benediction + bless is still a great combo if you want surefire bonuses without any room for failure.
Those spells are fine, for a rank 1 spell they are actually above average.
If I would rank that category of spells between themselves would be Bless > Malediction > Benediction > Bane.
Yes, for rank 1 spells they are fine.
But I disagree with your ranking. Malediction and Bane are rather bad due to the small area and save. You should always choose Bless and Benediction over them and you should actually never get to the point where you'll need to cast one of them.Between Bless and Benediction it depends on the enemy. If the enemies are physical attackers then Benediction will beat Bless most of the time. If the enemies are using save-based attacks then Bless gets higher value. But overall Benediction should be better.
I value offense over defense more overall, I prefer to end the battles earlier than to survive longer.
I value offense over defense more overall, I prefer to end the battles earlier than to survive longer.
There's no higher value in offense than defense. Especially in such small numbers, having a fight 10% shorter or longer should not impact our judgment.
Bless only affect martials (casters don't really use spell attack roll spells) while Benediction protects everyone. So if the enemies are physical attackers, it's the better choice. If the enemies are using save-based attacks, it's obviousy more of a wash. But from my experience, save-based attack are much more rare than physical ones, especially at low level.In any case, I would recommend bless + malediction or bane + benediction over benediction + bless, depending on whether you're going offense or defense.
Benediction + Bless is the efficient choice as both Bane and Malediction are weaker. Going for Bless + Malediction or Bane + Benediction is just favoring big numbers over efficiency.
I don't believe anyone has made any such "wacky" claims. In general, I agree with you on this point, which is why I recommended casting only two of the four spells in a given encounter, depending on whether you wanted to focus on offense or defense.
Please point to where I said anyone "claimed" anything. I am simply pointing to the premise of this thread, which is about stacking these aura spells together, and drawing from conversations around the Battle Harbinger, where defenders of the class archetype similarly waxed lyrical about how a Battle Harbinger could mod everyone's stats without factoring in the action cost. I would say that even four actions in an encounter, where you'll often have just nine actions to play with, is already a pretty steep cost, so while your remaining Strikes will be more accurate, you'll be making far fewer of them, and this is without factoring in the actions needed for you and your allies to get into position so that they get to benefit from the +1s, and enemies get affected by the -1s (and don't just Step or Stride out of their radius).
I mean, that's great if you happen to have a bard in the party.
It's notably powerful* because it's a new method for clerics to stack the numbers. As rare as stacking is in Pathfinder, it's usually going to be notable.
In any case, it's a great option because it remains useful if you have just a cleric or a bard and a cleric. The fact that they work together rather than stepping on each other's toes is a perk, not a condemnation that one is awesome and the other worthless.
None of these benefits are new, though. Heroism is a divine and occult spell that grants a status bonus to all non-flat checks, frightened is a condition both occult and divine casters can apply that imposes a status penalty to attack rolls and AC, protection is a divine and occult spell that grants a +1 status bonus to AC and saves (and can even be made into an aura, too!), and forbidding ward is a divine and occult cantrip that grants a status bonus to AC and saving throws. It's not just that Clerics can already output status bonuses and penalties to all of these stats and Bards can do it all even better, your Cleric can do all of this in higher amounts than these spells, too (and so can the Bard!).
The ability to force new saves as you expand the area doesn't make them all bad. In any case, I would recommend bless + malediction or bane + benediction over benediction + bless, depending on whether you're going offense or defense.
That said, benediction + bless is still a great combo if you want surefire bonuses without any room for failure.
If we're talking about expanding the area of multiple spells, that's five, six of your actions dedicated to just these auras. You'd effectively be spending the majority of your actions in the encounter laying down +1/-1 auras and making sure they affect more than one person. Perhaps at low level, this could be okay, but the moment you start having higher-rank slots to spare, it'd be much more effective for your divine buffer to use heroism spells from cheap slots or items when possible, and using spells like fear to debuff enemies (and as an added bonus, you still get to apply that -1 penalty on a successful save). Spending all of these actions casting and Sustaining auras also incidentally makes you worse at making use of them, because you not only get fewer actions to leverage the benefits of your increased accuracy (if you're using bless+malediction), you'd also need to move into position to apply them to your allies and enemies, and so would your allies under many circumstances, making these spells exceptionally costly to benefit from. This is why I think these spells ought to increase their bonuses with rank-ups and have a smaller starting action cost and aura radius, because they very quickly become obsolete in the face of other common spell options on the same spell lists.