The implant limit is just way too limiting. The cybernetic / Bio / Magitech divide is overdone

[BigNorseWolf]

In starfinder having to list the implants was a little annoying , but it let you have about 14 things. Even if one of your goodies overlapped with your favorite body part, there was bound to be SOMETHING else you like.

With the limit of 1 or possibly less, and only likely to gain 1 every four levels, I've got one implant I feel I need and NO desire to go through a catalog of mad science augmentation body parts. I should be ECSTATIC to go through every new mad science catalog to look for body parts

In either system, listing the augmentations by type just breaks up the list and makes what you're looking for harder to find. Are there ANY mechanicl effects of having a cybernetic vs Biotech limb? Just make a note of their type in the description for future proofing and flavor differences.

[Driftbourne]

The limit does seem incredibly low, but what I really don't like is the limit is tied to your Constitution modifier. This means that only very specific character types will be able to have multiple implants. Constitution isn't something I would normally pump up on a technomancer. My Contemplative technomancer is even named Asgrok augmented paradox conjunction, and has an -1 Constitution modifier.

For me, the implant shop is right next to the Cantina. So big NO vote for me on tying the limit to the Constitution modifier.

I'm guessing the limit is there because PF2e doesn't have an equivalent to balance with, but it does, PF2e has a magic item vesting limit of 10. What about the idea of mixing the magic vesting limit with the implant limit? That way you could have either 10 magic items or 10 implants or a mix of the 2 types, but not more than 10.

I agree with making implants one list and then just use tags to label them.

[moosher12]

Kind of inclined to agree.

In all honesty, I feel like with the way they function, they can easily occupy an investment slot, as Driftbourne suggested.

The saving grace is the current draft does stack with investment slots I suppose. But I don't know how often investment slots will be used in Starfinder anyway.

Thanks for bringing it to attention, I frankly overlooked the implication in size during my initial readthrough.

I do feel the current draft is functional

[Perpdepog]

moosher12 wrote:

The saving grace is the current draft does stack with investment slots I suppose. But I don't know how often investment slots will be used in Starfinder anyway.

I imagine about as much as in Pathfinder, since all those items can be transferred over and used with no fuss. That being said, does your armor require investment now? I can't honestly recall.

Also, why not take both approaches? Keep the augmentation slots, but allow augmentations to either take one of those slots, or take up a point of investiture, like PF2E's grafts and contracts do.

[Squiggit]

The current cap is way too low, definitely.

Especially since some some implants are very... low impact while others provide very clear combat benefits, characters are going to be aggressively disincentivized in picking up any 'for fun' implants if they have to pay with such a limited commodity.

I don't super mind the con relationship, it's kind of interesting, but I don't think it's super important either.

[PossibleCabbage]

It's good that Con does something else, but you could probably set the baseline for number of implants higher and also a general feat for "you can handle more implants" would be appropriate (like incredible investiture but for tech.)

[Teridax]

Driftbourne wrote:

I'm guessing the limit is there because PF2e doesn't have an equivalent to balance with, but it does, PF2e has a magic item vesting limit of 10. What about the idea of mixing the magic vesting limit with the implant limit? That way you could have either 10 magic items or 10 implants or a mix of the 2 types, but not more than 10.

This is such a good idea that Paizo implemented this in the form of grafts, which have you invest your graft like a magic item. This to me is an example of what happens when you silo your design teams -- they end up inventing two versions of the same wheel, when one team could have simply used the work of the other and come up with something more consistent. I do hope that in the future, implants just use the rules for grafts.

I also agree that for the most part, the distinction between implant types is entirely arbitrary. Unless a graft is specifically tech or magical, it doesn't make a difference in my opinion at the moment, because it's only those two traits that interact with actual game mechanics so far. The biotech/magitech traits could very well just be removed, and if there are plans to have something interact with biological effects in general, then have a trait for that instead and add it to the biotech implants.

[Driftbourne]

Another reason I don't like Con being used to set the limit is that in SF1e you could use implants to increase your ability scores, so now low Con characters would need to use their only implant slot if they even have a slot, to boost their Con to get more implants.

I don't think something like a Voice Amplifier, Datajack, or Darkvision Capacitors would put a lot of stress on your body to need a Con limit. I don't like the idea that low Con characters would not be able to replace lost limbs with Prosthetic Limbs.

Maybe Con could be used to limit just implants that have a big impact on your body. Maybe some implants might require a +2 con to install but the overall limit would stay the same and would hopefully be much higher like the magic item vesting limit of 10

[Exocist]

If they’re dead set on keeping something CON related (instead of just making it a flat number like 5, or making it work off investment), just set it to a flat number and add a general feat with a +2 con requirement that increases that number, similar to how we resolved investment from playtest to print.

[Karmagator]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

It's good that Con does something else, but you could probably set the baseline for number of implants higher and also a general feat for "you can handle more implants" would be appropriate (like incredible investiture but for tech.)

That feat exists, it's called Augmented Body.

But having a higher minimum and leaving the rest for CON sounds pretty good to me. A minimum of 3 plus CON (if positive) would be good. Not being able to have that many of them allows the devs to make each more impactful.

More "for fun" augments should have the "don't count against your implant limit" addition in any case, like many of them already have. Some, e.g. Moodskin, are still missing that part.

Edit: as for the split in the book, I think it's fine. Flavor has its place and we still have three big tables to find stuff more quickly. Most people will go to AoN for a searchable list anyway, no matter how it is presented in the book. Especially once you get more books.

[DMurnett]

Karmagator wrote:

Some, e.g. Moodskin, are still missing that part.

Errata'd, Moodskin is officially a "fun" option that doesn't take up a slot like it should be. And also, conversely, Apexes also don't take up slots anymore (there's actually really big cheese potential with that but that's easy to fix), so the most powerful options also don't compete for the same resource as fun-yet-suboptimal choices. Same can't be said for weapon mods so let's count our blessings where they appear.

[Driftbourne]

If they want to keep Con connected to implants instead of using it to limit them, what about if using some implants was hard on your body, and if you used it more than once without resting you need to make a Fortitude save to avoid getting a condition. Or some implants could have an ability that could be supercharged but requires a Fortitude save at the end of your turn to determine how long you get a condition for. Different implants could have different conditions that fit the use of the implant.

That would let any class have access to implants without needing to pump their Con, but if you want to push the limits of your implants then you can increase your Con or just take risk. This way if you get an implate that is higher level then your character it would be usable, but you might have to waite a few levels to boost your Con to reduce the side effects of using it.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

DMurnett wrote:

Karmagator wrote:

Some, e.g. Moodskin, are still missing that part.

Errata'd, Moodskin is officially a "fun" option that doesn't take up a slot like it should be. And also, conversely, Apexes also don't take up slots anymore (there's actually really big cheese potential with that but that's easy to fix), so the most powerful options also don't compete for the same resource as fun-yet-suboptimal choices. Same can't be said for weapon mods so let's count our blessings where they appear.

The note about weapon mods is so true. It feels very awkward that you can easily have 5-10 body modifications, but only 1-2 weapon mods for MANY levels. And then, you have the weird contrast of very "mundane" upgrades (uniclamps, scopes, silencers, bipods) contrasting with very "non-mundane" upgrades (fear projectors, AI, etc). I really would love to just load up my weapons with a lot of mundane tacticool stuff with no restriction beyond cost.

[moosher12]

Guns and Gears already did a good job with mixing weapon upgrades with runes. And Starfinder really can just use that as a starting point. A flashlight or a bayonet really should not take the place of a rune-like upgrade.