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One thing I think happens when classes get those kinds of circumstance bonuses to skills is that they begin to break the difficulty curve.
This is very much the case with Furious Bully on barbarian. It gives +2 circumstance bonus to athletics and after looking at reflex saves of every monster on archives of Nethys after level 8 its clear that feat makes tripping a reasonable chance even against the high reflex DCs for +3 solo bosses.
To be clear about what I mean by breaking. It gets you into the 13 and up range before buffs and debuffs against the best reflex saves. most creatures are going to be easier than that.
And it means the same tactic works reasonably well even against foes that are best against that tactic. I feel that options lose balance when you can build to make one option work all the time against anything.
Athletics and acrobatics are some of the most common skills for martials that fit hybrid studies because well... those are the most direct "martial" skills.
And having a recharge feature (or anything) relying on other skills like intimidation and so on might be an issue because of stats and MAD and all.You can divide things up accross specific actions within those skills:
For example Inexorable Iron could get Shove and Trip while Laughing Shadow gets Feint and Disarm. Could also get Dirty trick or other stuff based on Thievery.
I mean Aloof Firmament gives you the benefits of a feat while in the stance, a revamped Laughing Shadow could give you Dirty Trick while in the stance.Would have to see which subclass would fit Demoralize the most, or more niche actions like Seek.
Hide and Sneak are also valid. But the issue is you'd automatically know if you've hidden from someone if that recharge spellstrike, so I guess it'd have to be something like just rolling to hide recharges, unless you roll a nat 1. But then the immunity applies to every ennemies who was observing you when you hid. That'd only be once per fight then, but given it'd most likely be for Starlit Span, which already has an easy time recharging spellstrike, it wouldn't be much of an issue really.
Yes, I can see going for specific actions for the various Hybrid Studies like Demoralize with Inexorable Iron, Trip for Spinning Staff, etc. But I like the more general to allow for more freedom in character concept but that's my preference. Also not a fan that entering AC recharges spellstrike but I supposed that is a matter of my playstyle which is to cast shield in my first round and enter AC before taking my third action.
One thing I think happens when classes get those kinds of circumstance bonuses to skills is that they begin to break the difficulty curve.
This is very much the case with Furious Bully on barbarian. It gives +2 circumstance bonus to athletics and after looking at reflex saves of every monster on archives of Nethys after level 8 its clear that feat makes tripping a reasonable chance even against the high reflex DCs for +3 solo bosses.
To be clear about what I mean by breaking. It gets you into the 13 and up range before buffs and debuffs against the best reflex saves. most creatures are going to be easier than that.
And it means the same tactic works reasonably well even against foes that are best against that tactic. I feel that options lose balance when you can build to make one option work all the time against anything.
Good point and articulates my intuition that it was likely too powerful. I'm more interested in smoothing out Arcane Cascade. It adds nice flavor but can be clunky to use and often doesn't offer enough to incentivize players to enter it.
Enterring the cascade to recharge might indeed "force" enterring it only after spellstriking to maximise its usefulness. That's a bit why my initial suggestion was that you can end Arcane Cascade as a free action to recharge spellstrike. It differs the recharge aspect to later, at the cost of losing the benefits and having to enter it again.
The worry of forcing a playstyle too much is valid. Maybe having those as feats instead would be better, but also kinda of feel like a tax. Like "at level 2, use your feat to choose how you wanna be able to compress the recharge action". I don't think a numerical bonus would be needed there though, just the recharge benefit, and in some cases facilitating the use of the skill (Allowing Trip/Shove with a two handed weapon when in AC for Inexorable Iron for example)
There must be some kind of balance somewhere, maybe a feat that lets you pick another study's recharge skill. (kind of like how different casters or martials have a feat to gain some/all the benefits of another subclass. Like bard, druid, ranger)
And then some more additional options in the feats like Recharging on a successful First Aid/Treat Wound, or on a successful Bon mot. Etc etc
We'd have to list all the suggestions to more recharge options and see what combinations work. Because I doubt all can be kept.
It also depends on what nerfs are put in, like if the Focus Spell synergy is removed, this opens up more space.
Etc etc
Good point and articulates my intuition that it was likely too powerful. I'm more interested in smoothing out Arcane Cascade. It adds nice flavor but can be clunky to use and often doesn't offer enough to incentivize players to enter it.One thing I think happens when classes get those kinds of circumstance bonuses to skills is that they begin to break the difficulty curve.
This is very much the case with Furious Bully on barbarian. It gives +2 circumstance bonus to athletics and after looking at reflex saves of every monster on archives of Nethys after level 8 its clear that feat makes tripping a reasonable chance even against the high reflex DCs for +3 solo bosses.
To be clear about what I mean by breaking. It gets you into the 13 and up range before buffs and debuffs against the best reflex saves. most creatures are going to be easier than that.
And it means the same tactic works reasonably well even against foes that are best against that tactic. I feel that options lose balance when you can build to make one option work all the time against anything.
Sticking with the theme your going for, what might be cool is having an effect that goes off when you enter arcane cascade based on hybrid study.
Step or one of the following effects based on hybrid studyobvious ones would be
laughing shadow -feignt nvm needs to be something else, hide or sneak?
sparkling targe - shove
probably should use spell DC to fit the source of the benefit.
I don't think using your spell proficiency would be good for that honestly.
For that you already have the Telekinetic manoeuver spell, plus it'll just be worse than using the actual skills.
Maybe allowing a choice but then it might also be too good.
Telekinetic maneuver is long range and a spells slot, so this effect would need to be something that doesnt compete with it. I do think it should be far worse than something you use a spellslot to achieve.
You might be right about the choice being too strong. I was thinking limiting the movement to 5 ft or the hybrid option would keep it limited enough.
Another idea I've had for improving/incentivizing AC is to have it mimic the Barbarian's Instincts specialization ability so at 7th level something else unlocks.
Perhaps AC's damage can go up more than it already does along similar (but more modest) lines at 7 and then again when you get great weapon specialization
Or perhaps everyone gets Runic Impression as a free conflux spell at level 7 or 8 (so it's no longer a feat) that can be used only if you're in AC
Or perhaps each hybrid study gets some extra something Bluemagetim suggests:
Aloof Firmament extra damage after Fly/Leap/High Jump/Long Jump lasts until end of turn (not just next strike before end of turn)
Inexorable Iron can add Shove or Trip or Disarm trait to their two-handed weapon
Laughing shadow extra movement is +10-foot bonus to Speed and +15-foot bonus to Speed if unarmored (+20-foot bonus to Speed too powerful?)
Sparkling Targe - don't know, any suggestions?
Starlit Span - able to add AC's damage to ranged strikes
Twisting Tree - don't know, any suggestions?
Unfurling Brocade - don't know, any suggestions?
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Well all the studies already get something from being in the stance.
That something might be buffed up on some of them. And sure, maybe at certain levels there could be another bump.
But I don't think just having more damage on cascade will make it much more fun to use. I won't change the way you play by itself.
Inexorable should get that benefit from the getgo, it's too "gameplay defining" to be a later feature.
For the rest really there isn't much you can improve at a higher level change tbh. At least can't think of one.
Twisting Treet already gives you increased damage, traits etc from the subclass alone, the cascade allows you to benefit from whichever set of traits you like at any point since you can swap grip as a free action as you attack. Can't really add much to that that is a continuation of the concept.
Same with Brocade, it already gives a lot and you can hardly change it without it being too good. Like if you change the disarm or grapple follow up to a reaction that's super strong.
Yeah maybe this is not the way to go.
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That's quite a lot of additional steps, i'm not sure it would really change things for the better.
It'd make recharging even more action intensive.
Because for that you need to first enter the stance, then use the conflux spells/cantrips (if they still recharge)
This is way more combursome this way.
Plus those higher feats are definitely way too necessary. Sure they are very high level (18/20 is about when you can get the "quickened to recharge spellstrike" feat) but until then it actually takes less actions to just do the normal 1 action recharge.
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I think forcing the use of cascade to be able to use the compression of the conflux spells would just cause more friction.
It's not really encouraging players to use it and stay in it as much as forcing their hand.
Giving more abilities unrelated to spellstrike that can be used when in the stance would be more encouraging I think.
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But that's the only thing.
There isn't any other way your martial side supports your magical side, that's what I'm saying.
Compare to 1e feats and magus arcana that had more stuff for that (Riving Strike and so on)
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Yeah, obviously not everything can or should be ported.
But it gives idea of what the class fantasy originaly was and what could yet be implemented that feels lacking.
Like the suggestion I had for spell combat
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Right but my thing is if they are bringing classes forward and changing them to fit the new system then it doesn't make sense to try and ask for them to go backwards. That can be limiting to and for the class.
I don't know, there's plenty of material from 1e that is worth porting in concept while making the effort to adapt it to 2e's balance and design, in my opinion. Kalaam's suggestion for implementing Spell Combat on the 2e Magus, iirc as a feat, both struck me as interesting and not just cohered with 2e's mechanics, but actively made use of its three-action system to enrich the concept further. In general, the suggestions to have power akin to 1e, or straight-up port mechanics wholesale from 1e, have been quite rare on this thread, and far more common have been suggestions based on the Magus as implemented in 2e, with 2e firmly in mind.
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My ideal fix would be a tiny bump to arcane cascade damage and powerful two action activities (from subclass and feats) for the magus that added in the recharge action for free if you're in cascade. I think that might incentivise more non spell striking turns. Laughing shadow getting to strike from 10 feet away, then hide, and recharge. An indomitable iron getting to strike, shove/trip, and recharge. Etc etc. Stuff to incentivise varied magus turns. The third action remaining on those turns would be used for whatever
Right but my thing is if they are bringing classes forward and changing them to fit the new system then it doesn't make sense to try and ask for them to go backwards. That can be limiting to and for the class.Yeah, obviously not everything can or should be ported.
But it gives idea of what the class fantasy originaly was and what could yet be implemented that feels lacking.Like the suggestion I had for spell combat
I mean have you read the suggestion itself ?
Basically as a replacement our feat chain out of Expansive Spellstrike.
It lets you choose to cast the spell before the strike when doing a spellstrike, or just not channel it through the weapon. When you do so, you can use any spell as it is essentially cast "normally" and aim at any target valid for it (you, allies, ennemies, areas) you just don't get any of the benefits from weapon accuracy for attack spells, or things like that.
Essentially all you get is the action division of Spellstrike, on any spell you want, and still have to recharge afterward.
It reproduces the uniqueness of 1e spell combat in 2e by making it a unique blend of attack and magic that only the magus can pull of. And because it can be any spell, you can have a lot of different characters using it. Have you gotten spells from cleric to support allies ? Now you can do it while you're attacking an ennemy.
You'll still need to recharge spellstrike with an action or conflux spell (or any focus spell if we try the suggestion from earlier) but on that turn you do get a lot of possibilities.
My ideal fix would be a tiny bump to arcane cascade damage and powerful two action activities (from subclass and feats) for the magus that added in the recharge action for free if you're in cascade. I think that might incentivise more non spell striking turns. Laughing shadow getting to strike from 10 feet away, then hide, and recharge. An indomitable iron getting to strike, shove/trip, and recharge. Etc etc. Stuff to incentivise varied magus turns. The third action remaining on those turns would be used for whatever
There have been quite a few suggestions in that direction. I think too it'd add a lot to the turn to turn variety of the class.
Haven't suggested 2 actions that compress 3 as options but some do allign somewhat.I suggested that one or 2 skill actions per subclass trigger a recharge on success (once per target) and some feats could synergize with it.
Like Inexorable iron recharges on successful shoves or trips if you're in ArCsd.
However I don't really see how adding extra damage to cascade would be really useful to the class' gameplay.
And then if there's a Knockdown like feat (with a magical spin lets say, if it requires arcane cascade) that is a Strike+Trip roll at same MAP for 2 actions, on a success you would also recharge here, or on any action that result in a sucessful trip in its text.
It's pretty different from playtest spellstrike.
The only thing in common is you can choose to strike and roll the attack spell normaly as an option, but unless you want to target two different creatures there's no point in doing it.
Otherwise I don't see the similarity.
There no "holding the charge" thing etc, spellstriking still works as it does now too.
Its just opening up the technique to more than just raw damage like support for allies, self buff, battlefield control etc by delaying the 3rd action to recharge and at the risk of losing the spell on a crit failed attack if you use the strike first.
But you can still spellstrike normally with attack spells.
So I don't really see the problem.
How much damage to AC do you think would make it worthwhile ?
Personnaly I hardly see any amount that would unless it enables more options in your actions.
Arcane Cascade could add a flat +10 damage it wouldn't really change much to your playstyle. It would only make the non spellstrike turns more bearable.
I don't think you can get more damage with just two strikes than with spellstrike (especially using spell slots) without it being horribly unbalanced.
Two successful hits isn't that hard to achieve, and if the idea is that those should surpass a spellstrike cantrip...why use spellstrike to begin with outside of your slotted spells. (for damage at least)
Sure there would be different usecases (against high ac ennemy, betting on a single spellstrike with your best accuracy might be better than trying two different attacks).
But then that additional damage would also apply to spellstrike itself.
For two strikes to surpass/equal spellstrike the damage bonus from Arcane Cascade should be equivalent to a giant instinct barbarian.
Arcane Cascade should be buffed yes, but by expanding on the concept and attack options it provides. Not just by making it deal +18 damage. (That's barbarian's final rage damage bonus for giant instinct btw. It'd go 6, 10, 18 by that progression.)
This is just way too much.
As a feat that gives you a special flourish strike that increases in damage based on Arcane Cascade's progression ? Sure why not. A pseudo spellstrike thing that uses Arcane Cascade instead of a spell. Like a 2 action strike that deals X damage based on weapon specialization or arcane cascade bonus. Like 5 times the arcane cascade bonus or whatever. (that'd make a clean 5, 10, 15)
Actually I think two successful strikes already beats spellstrike with gouging claw on a d10 weapon or higher not including arcane cascade damage.
We can confirm the math.
Did a quick check at level 8:
Two successful strikes with arcane cascade is behind by 1 damage on average.
At level 15:
It's exactly equal on average.
So looks like overall with cascade its just dependant on what the situation in really.
With any weapon its going to be (Strike damage)+(spell damage)
spell damage can be the same for any magus no matter the weapon they use which improves the comparison in favor of spellstrike over striking twice the lower the die on the weapon.
moreso the case for Aloof Firmament which only gets its higher than normal damage for one strike after leaping or flying
But this is why I was saying earlier that inexorable Iron with a d12 is less spellstrike dependent than other magi at least when comparing cantrips based spellstrikes
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I think they should make Arcane Cascade a once per round free action with a trigger of having Cast A Spell with 1, 2, or 3-Actions or making a Spellstrike.
If the Magus gets a remaster, it will have a Class DC. I think it should just use that for the target of Spellstrike saves. ONLY the ONE target. If its an Expansive Spellstrike, ONLY the Spellstrike target saves vs the Class DC, and only on the initial save. The Class DC won't out pace any casters Spell DC.
Thats just my two cents on this, not trying to knock any other suggestions.
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I'd quite like to see the Magus get a scaling class DC at the same ranks as their spell DC. It wouldn't have a huge impact, as it would only affect their ability to output crit spec effects when opting into feats that enable this (when they're not being keyed directly to their spell DC instead via their own class feats), which would give them a little bit of added versatility.
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It'd be a tiny change that would be nice to get yes.
Also going mad over seeing Treasure Vault getting a remastered printing but no news for Secrets of Magic yet lol
It'd be a tiny change that would be nice to get yes.
Also going mad over seeing Treasure Vault getting a remastered printing but no news for Secrets of Magic yet lol
They could offer a "remastered errata" though. The Summoner may require a deeper remaster as well.
------Back to Spellstrike, the idea is how it essentially forces you to Concentrate in order to recharge it.
The thing is that over time, you can "focus quicker" and "less likely" on any task the more you repeat it. It's like typing: you must look, and focus, on which letter you hit at first, but the more you practice, the less you need to focus on your fingers' positions.
Adding a feat that combines recharging Spellstrike with "any 1-action move" makes sense and will show a progression. ANOTHER advanced feat, now with "any 2-action move", would be a good addition as well. You could basically recharge your Spellstrike WHILE Casting a Spell.
------
Arcane Cascade should also receive a feat to Activate as a Reaction, whether be all the time, once/day, at a 1 focus point cost, or whatnot.
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If we're comparing spellstrike to channel smite, it's pretty clear where the problems are.
Channel smite has the same mechanism in that you get to hit and cast a spell in two actions and deal double damage on a crit, but:
- You don't need to recharge
- You don't provoke
With harming hands, the damage is d10/spell level, which is a bit lower than what a magus can do (apart from imaginary weapon) but still solid.
It's also on a class that has way more spells to play with, including from 4 to 6 free top spell harm.
As for your to-hit bonus, you're:
Levels 1-4: -1
Levels 5-6: -2
Level 7-9: Same
Levels 10-12: -1
Levels 13-14: -3 (outch)
Levels 15-18: -2
Levels 19-20: Same
So basically, it trades some to-hit bonus, a damage type that undead are immune to, a bit less damage on a burst and the ability to expand spellstrike for:
- A much better action economy
- More spell slots to strike with
- A lot (like, a lot) more spells that allow you not only to channel smite but to heal and buff. For instance, a precasted at-level heroism goes a long way towards giving you same or even better accuracy.
- NO PROVOKE (omg).
Since you have a lot of spell slots, not only is your action economy much more forgiving, but when you're not using channel smite, you can still do a lot of very valuable things like healing, buffing or debuffing, without worrying that those were your only 4 spells of the day (consumables notwithstanding).
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Well Channel Smite is locked to a single spell and damage type (well vitality or void if you use Heal or Harm).
So it's much, much more limited than spellstrike in that regard.
And Magus can do it with cantrips which will be better than what the warpriest can dish out without expanding a spell slot.
But yes spellstrike and arcane cascade have become too clunky compared to a lot of other similar abilities (panache, gunslinger's firearms, kineticist's channel elements, examplar's immanences etc and even Runesmith's playtest version.)
It doesn't necesseraly needs to be changed much itself, but it needs more support than just adding properties to it through feats. More ways to juggle it and play with the action economy.
I'm not thinking of different damage type as much as rider effect on some spells.
Outside of the top 2 slots though the smite damage shouldn't be above a spellstrike cantrip.
But again yes, the magus needs some more stuff (and not just more damage. Like you could make it so arcane cascade make it so when you spellstrike you get the spell rank as bonus damage, or double if its from a spell slot, but that wouldn't change the underlying issues)
Well Channel Smite is locked to a single spell and damage type (well vitality or void if you use Heal or Harm).
So it's much, much more limited than spellstrike in that regard.And Magus can do it with cantrips which will be better than what the warpriest can dish out without expanding a spell slot.
Yeah, I acknowledged the first part in my post - as for the second part, a harming font warpriest has up to 6 free slots to channel with, which is quite good.
But that wasn't the point of my post, I'm not saying Channel Smite is better - but that it FEELS better.
There is no clunkiness to it (hit + 1 action spell, that's it), no recharge, no AOO, nothing.
And the best part is, you can do so much more.
The magus, despite what some are trying to say, is basically designed around spellstriking - that's where most of his power budget went. So, sure, you shouldn't (and can't, anyway) spellstrike every round, but then what do you do ? You can strike without a spell (and do less damage than other martials). Or you can cast a meaningful spell (4 times a day). Or you can use a consumable (like any other class). Or you can trip (like any other class).
The cleric CAN channel smite if he takes the feat (and harming hands to lay the hurt), but he also has a bevy of spells and feats that complement his playstyle and makes it so no round is alike. You can heal, auto-trip with cast down, channel smite, use Cry of Destruction, use a shield better than almost anyone, have a lot of tools against undead who wouldn't be bothered by your Harm spells, and cast a lot of buffs or debuffs without depleting your resources.
I wish the magus were more like that: that spellstriking would be an option - a strong option, to be sure, and one to be favored - but that he could do a lot more when the stars don't align and he doesn't want to spellstrike.
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Oh yeah I aggree that a channel smite cleric feels a bit like magus lite but without all the clunk.
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I'd quite like to see the Magus get a scaling class DC at the same ranks as their spell DC.
Thats what I'm hoping for. Makes the most sense in comparison to other classes that have both Class & Spell DCs.
Adding a feat that combines recharging Spellstrike with "any 1-action move" makes sense and will show a progression. ANOTHER advanced feat, now with "any 2-action move", would be a good addition as well. You could basically recharge your Spellstrike WHILE Casting a Spell.
I like the sound of that. Even if its just moving like Running Reload.
I feel like for Spellstrikes needing to be recharged in general, it could just be as simple as asking "Was it a Cantrip?"
• If Yes, then no recharge needed.
• If No, then recharge.
The "No" Group is mostly slotted spells and focus spells.
Normal psi-cantrip, no recharge needed. Amped psi-cantrip, thats just a focus spell, so now you recharge.
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I wonder how much things would change if spellstrike cantrip didn't require to recharge. It might make turns very samey still if no other options exist within the class. Kind of like Starlit Span.
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I wonder how much things would change if spellstrike cantrip didn't require to recharge. It might make turns very samey still if no other options exist within the class. Kind of like Starlit Span.
Maybe its too much, but I've never had a problem with the idea of Magi having "repetitive" turns. Recharging has been part of the Magus routine since its launch, so it won't ruin my day if it stays.
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I wonder how much things would change if spellstrike cantrip didn't require to recharge. It might make turns very samey still if no other options exist within the class. Kind of like Starlit Span.
I'm personally very much in favor of removing the recharge requirement when Spellstriking with a cantrip, and believe it would actually make turns less samey overall. I think this can be broken down into two cases:
So whether you'd be playing melee or ranged, you'd still have varied turns in my opinion, albeit for different reasons.