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Or because Attack Spells are weaker against a single target than a Martial's attacks on purpose. And some people just cannot abide by this design goal.Which part of the question they asked even remotely relates to power relative to martial Strikes? Also, this is flat-out wrong, top-rank damage spells, including attack spells, can hit harder than Strikes. That's part of the appeal of playing a class with limited top-rank spell slots per day.
When I said weaker, I meant less damage dealt to the target overall. The "less reliable" part mentioned above plays a big part there.
Really, all threads that talked about blasters ended up complaining about this.
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It's literally worse to have INT on most magus builds. You can bypass the need for it entirely with spellstrike, and you're a melee character that needs STR/DEX/CON/WIS. The only magi that can take INT without as significantly tanking their saves or damage are Starlit Span magi. You can make this trade, make no mistake; it is, however, objectively worse to invest in INT, even if it's indeed more fun to have half-functional save DCs.
(N.B. As designed, Laughing Shadow was made for a finesse build... but Arcane Cascade is just bad and difficult to use, so you'll never get the damage from Cascade that's supposed to make up for having less STR. So Starlit Span is the only one that remains that's able to invest in INT without sacrificing more important stats.)
Not increasing int would weaken a magus that plays the class to have both martial strikes and arcane spells that require saves.
Not every character needs to max out all save stats. Its fine to have a weakness you need to strategize around.And when a magus doesnt use all their slots for spell strike they actually have the tools to do it.
What gets me is all this talk about ideal routines (not specifically from you) on a class that has full access to the arcane spell list.
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I started playing a magus recently. Inexorable iron.
So my thoughts are from this perspective.
I enjoy having access to spells, I love the arcane list. My favorite moments were basically doing what a wizard does. Research and prepare.
Using two hand weapons lead me to taking reactive strike (reach weapon) and using briny bolt or pre errata live wire. I tried psychic dedication for a bit, despite it making you literally a better magus it didn't fit my characters back story or flavor. So I accept being worse.
The action economy is so rough I simply don't see it's potential burst as worthwhile.
Arcane Cascade is the clunkiest and lowest reward class feature I'd rather have a 1 damage ribbon bump similar to gunslinger. I've experimented, ignoring it and using it. I can tell you, using it has set me back entire rounds and ignoring it has done almost nothing (at this point it's 4 recurring temp HP and 2 damage, I could not care less, and you shouldn't not care about your class features). At least let me enter/shift it as a free action upon spell strike hit.
Spell strike is fine. But the base conflux is meh. Give me a conflux that let's me move or something that I can pick up as a feat.
You suffer more in remaster imo tanking your intellect. ESPECIALLY vs ranged enemies or flying ones.
Next time I'm just gonna play a ranged magus I see no reason to play a melee one ever again.
I'm actually hoping this character dies, I've told my GM I won't feel bad.
I'd rather play a fighter, or a wizard, or a fighter with wizard dedication, or a wizard with a bow or air repeater.
I also consider the errata a nothing burger, why would I use a save spell with spell strike to add two levels of map and give the save spell a higher failure chance. It makes no sense.
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That's the rub for me it makes zero sense to dump INT. I play a Magus because I fully intend on using spells. After level 5 I never keep more than 1 attack roll spell in a slot. At 8th or tenth I take standby spell and never prepare a slotted attack roll spell. Before the remaster at level 1 I was at +6 damage before rolling any dice and +8 at 5th since the Magus was the only class that got to add 2 different attribute bonuses to a strike. And yes I would typically be 1-3 behind a full caster but that does not stop you from effectively using AoE's or buffs. Post remaster I still prioritize STR and INT equally so the only thing that really changed for me was now my damage was a little swingier. I'm absolutely fine if others see and play there Magi differently but it just fries my bacon when people state opinions like facts. Not saying you were specifically but there have been plenty in this thread doing just that.
Now that INT doesn't even add damage to cantrips (and gouging claw is king, anyways), it gives extremely little to the magus.
The class just doesn't have the resources to take advantage of casting. When you look at all the tradeoffs you make to invest in INT just to get good save DCs on four spells a day that you often will use as attack spells or buffs, and then compare that to the accuracy and action compression you already get for free with no INT investment on spellstriking with attack spells, it's no contest.
The math just does not support casting save spells as a melee magus without heavy sacrifices elsewhere, and I frankly feel like Starlit Span was an accident because it ignores every built-in design tradeoff every other magus subclass has.
As much as I've seen people like to prepare save spells, I've never seen a magus actually have a good time using them, even investing in INT. The save is always lower than it needs to be; it's too hard to target low saves correctly with only two prepared top rank slots and four slots total; you don't have the actions to recall knowledge to learn the low saves, and even magus's analysis assumes you're spellstriking; you run out of spells too fast; you don't have the low level burner slots you want; you can't sustain spells because your action economy is too strained. Meanwhile, your accuracy is already best-in-class on spell attacks with spellstrike, with no tradeoffs or downsides, and all your action compression interacts with it. When you cast save spells, you often throw that advantage away to do worse average damage or try to perform debuffs other party members can inflict more reliably than you with less significant opportunity cost. And make no mistake, taking actions that do less damage as a party melee is a significant opportunity cost.
The theoretical versatility just doesn't pan out for save spells. You're not even that versatile in practice anyways, since you only have four slots. Saveless buffs are something of a different story, when they're useful—especially when they can be precast, and especially if you've dipped into a MC archetype for a focus spell. But those things don't necessarily require INT, and may even push you away from it (like champion MC needing CHA).
Magus's design is firmly that of a martial that can cast a couple of spells. It's not really a gish in the way people traditionally think of a gish, and it's nothing like the 6th casters of old. It is more accurate to think of magus as a fighter that spellstrikes instead of power attacking or using double slice than it is to think of it as a wizard that's good with a sword.
The current errata really just makes people think they can and should be doing something they shouldn't be. I firmly believe it's removing gutter guards more than it is helping anyone do anything worthwhile.
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It's another point in favor of the magus being a well designed class that we have these radically different visions of how to play them coexisting, with people having positive experiences with all of the above.
Brothers, sisters and siblings, truly onto you I say: Arcane Cascade penalty on the strike portion of spellstrike.
Problem fixed.
Starlit span trades off better results on save spells for the safety and easier action economy of ranged combat.
Melee magi can still use saves even without maxing int.
Those who choose to invest heavily into it and their attack stat at the cost of survivability will get to be a tiny bit better than wizards at single target save stuff, as a payout for all the risks they take.
(and also please more action compression abilities with skills to recharge spellstrike)
Complete and total aside, but is there any way to get value out of using Seashell of Stolen Sound (a reaction spell with a condition you can fulfill yourself as a free action) on your turn to make it possible to enter arcane cascade without spending any other normal actions first?
I think it's really funny that this works, but I don't feel like it actually opens much up.
Well you do need to grab a seashell from your inventory for it though, so it'd take prior setup to already have it in hand.
It can work though it's very cheesy and gamey, hard to justify rpwise.
If you don't have a seashell in your free hand (or don't have a free hand) it'll still take an action to take it out so...basically worse than just casting Shield.
It's another point in favor of the magus being a well designed class that we have these radically different visions of how to play them coexisting, with people having positive experiences with all of the above.
Another point in favor of the Magus not being a literally perfect class and benefiting from updates is the fact that this latest errata baked single-target save spells into their Spellstrike. I agree that the Magus is a well-designed class, but let's not turn that appreciation into a weapon to club others over the head with when they give feedback.
Heavy armor proficiency is indeed very very good on strength magi but it's also easily accessible as-is via a general feat or the Sentinel archetype (which crucially grants access to Mighty Bulwark and thus eliminates any major consequence for dumping Dex). The MADness of Laughing Shadow and Aloof Firmament magi isn't too bad IME because their focus spells give them enough flexibility to enter Cascade on round 1 of combat if they wish - for example, they can cast Shield, enter Cascade, and then use their focus spell to close into melee and Strike. That means they can perform quite well even with a zero strength modifier.
I do think gaining the proficiency innately versus having to opt into a dedication (and therefore paying a bunch of class feats before being able to take another archetype) makes a big difference here, especially because so many Magi opt into the Psychic archetype as soon as they can. While Aloof Firmament and Laughing Shadow certainly can use their conflux spell on their first turn, rather than to recharge Spellstrike, I do think they're still pushed to use Strength for better damage rolls, especially if they're consistently not Spellstriking on their first turn, and I think that's something worth addressing in some form (though heavy armor proficiency obviously wouldn't solve that problem).
I can't say I think it's well designed
Well designed aspects, but overall I just can't find a way to agree.
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It can be well designed but lacking in parts or not adapted to a new paradigm.
"Well made" doesn't mean "perfect" or impossible to adjust, improve or criticize.
Like, I dunno, Alien is a very well made movie. But you can still find stuff to criticize within it or to change if you could.
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I've played a Starlit Span magus to level 10 (campaign ended) and am currently playing a level 2 Str-based Laughing Shadow magus. I'm having great fun, using spell slots for buffs and cantrips for spellstrikes. My normal routine is cast shield, enter arcane cascade and move to a flank position if I can. All of this is a set up for a round 2 spellstrike. It's not terrible but doesn't feel great either and I think a nice fix would be to have Arcane Cascade as a free action upon casting a spell. There's precedence for something like this with the remastered Barbarian getting Quick Tempered which allows them to enter rage as a free action upon rolling initiative.
A "quick tempered" thing for the first time you enter arcane cascade in a fight would be neat honestly. Call i" Martial Magic readiness" or something.
If you cast a spell during your first round in a fight, you can enter the cascade as a free action.
Maybe a feat could let you do it when rolling initiative if you were Repeating a spell as your exploration activity
It can be well designed but lacking in parts or not adapted to a new paradigm.
"Well made" doesn't mean "perfect" or impossible to adjust, improve or criticize.
Like, I dunno, Alien is a very well made movie. But you can still find stuff to criticize within it or to change if you could.
I think arcane cascade is terrible in execution and reward
I think the errata... Well... I'd rather just cast a save spell and hit someone.
That's why I have made suggestions to give Cascade more value and interrest.
From having is base damage (1 2 3) as a penalty on save during spellstrike(link to a more detailed thread), allowing special action compression skill actions while in the stance or the ability to end it on a free action to recharge spellstrike in a pinch. Along with adding more actions requiring it like a save penalty against the next spell before the start of your next round to support other casters, a melee version of cascading ray to offer a 2nd melee attack after spellstrike for agile weapon users, a strike that reduces resistances for a round, one that deals splash damage, a knockdown-like one that deals elemental damage as a bonus etc etc
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On the subject of Arcane Cascade, how's this for a version of it that's easier to use and would cater better to no-Strength Magi:
Traits: Concentrate, Magus, Stance
You use a specialized technique to imbue your attacks with additional magical force, cycling the energy of your spells into your stance. While you're in the stance, you no longer add your Strength modifier to the damage rolls of your melee Strikes, and instead your melee Strikes deal additional force damage equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier. This damage increases to 4 if you have weapon specialization and 5 if you have greater weapon specialization. Any Strike that benefits from this damage gains the arcane trait, making it magical.
Your stance requires a constant influx of magical energy. You exit the stance at the end of your next turn, but you can Sustain it to prolong its duration. Each time you Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike, you automatically Sustain Arcane Cascade, and if the spell used can deal damage, the damage from the stance changes to the same type that spell could deal (or one type of your choice if the spell could deal multiple types of damage).
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Effectively, you'd get to enter Arcane Cascade whenever you want, but would need to keep casting spells to prolong its duration, making it easier to activate without reducing its action cost. The bonus damage would get to feel more significant without increasing your damage output overall as a Strength Magus, and it would allow Dex-based Magi to be much less MAD (you could just go Dex/Con/Wis/Int). Coupled with innate heavy armor proficiency, this would allow every Magus to depend on only four attributes, rather than five on all but one subclass.
But then do strength magus have no benefit from it ? or can just to still add strength instead but have the damage change type ?
How does it relate to your subclass ?
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But then do strength magus have no benefit from it ? or can just to still add strength instead but have the damage change type ?
How does it relate to your subclass ?
Strength Magi would still deal more damage with this than with just their Strength mod unless you completely dump Int, which this really would discourage you from doing. You wouldn't add Strength to damage rolls, but would have other benefits like being able to wield heavy armor (and you'd still need Strength for your attack rolls).
A little further above I outlined three subsets of Magus subclasses: Starlit Span, which isn't overly MAD, the Strength-based Magi subclasses that are overly MAD because they also need Dex for Ref saves, and the Dex-based Magi subclasses that are overly MAD because they also need Strength for melee damage rolls. The Strength-based Magi subclasses could have their MADness addressed with innate heavy armor proficiency, and the Dex-based Magi subclasses could have their MADness addressed with the above version of Arcane Cascade.
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There isn't perfectly designed classes in PF2e because perfection is pretty much something that only exists in your mind because the moment it becomes a tangible thing, like all tangible things in existance, is bound to have at least some problem or error (putting it in Plato's words, kinda).
Philosophy aside, the 100% of the playerbase isn't going to agree on which problems X or Y class has because everyone has their own perspective. There's frequent posts from an user (I don't remember their username) who argues the fighter, widely considered one of the best classes in the system by most people, is actually bad in their eyes. This doesn't mean the fighter is bad, its probably bad for them, but it at least means the fighter isn't perfect because there's at least one person that doesn't like it. Obviously this isn't the best example because I don't think Paizo (or nobody, for that matter) aims to make something that's literally perfect, but rather they aim to make something that works for the majority of people. If there's something clear with everybody that contributed in this discussion, is that the magus is indeed a well designed class, but that it has some problems here and there that could be easily fixed.
I don't think most people here are arguing the magus needs a full rework, just that it needs some tweaks to properly tune those loose parts.
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Traits: Concentrate, Magus, Stance
You use a specialized technique to imbue your attacks with additional magical force, cycling the energy of your spells into your stance. While you're in the stance, you no longer add your Strength modifier to the damage rolls of your melee Strikes, and instead your melee Strikes deal additional force damage equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier. This damage increases to 4 if you have weapon specialization and 5 if you have greater weapon specialization. Any Strike that benefits from this damage gains the arcane trait, making it magical.
Your stance requires a constant influx of magical energy. You exit the stance at the end of your next turn, but you can Sustain it to prolong its duration. Each time you Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike, you automatically Sustain Arcane Cascade, and if the spell used can deal damage, the damage from the stance changes to the same type that spell could deal (or one type of your choice if the spell could deal multiple types of damage).
This is really interesting. I’m gonna Playtest this and the innate heavy armor thing I think. If I have anything interesting come up from this I’ll let you know.
This is really interesting. I’m gonna Playtest this and the innate heavy armor thing I think. If I have anything interesting come up from this I’ll let you know.
Amazing, enjoy! Please do let me know if anything interesting comes up, I'll be very keen to get more data on this. :)
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I just finished Agent of Edgewatch with a twisted tree magus.
I agree with OP and most other posters in the last pages (didn't check the whole thread): the magus is a wonderful idea but has some glaring problems.
Here are some issues I got with it:
1) A low number of spell slots means you have to rely on focus points if you want to last. This means a dedication into cleric or psychic is pretty much mandatory to get either Imaginary Weapon (best in slot) or some kind of 2d6/level ray. That's pretty bad design since it pigeonholes the magus into very few builds if you really want to be efficient.
2) Thankfully (ironically), taking a dedication is helped by the fact that the magus feats are pretty much all bad. I took a grand total of 3 throughout my whole career: Student of the staff, Conflux Focus (that was before remaster) and Supreme Spellstrike. That's it. Everything else is a load of crap and went into fueling my dedications.
3) This poses a serious problem as optimized play forces you to ignore your hybrid studies. Since your focus points are so important, you cannot afford to throw them away on a conflux spell - which is a shame, since they're very flavorful.
4) Even if twisted tree mitigates this a bit by having reach, getting hit by AOO for spellstriking kills all the fun - and sometimes the character. At low levels, it's kind of painless when opponents are medium-sized, but later on they're often large or more, and a lot of them have an AOO or an equally nasty surprise.
5) Like most posters said, arcane cascade is probably the worst thing in the whole magus chassis. Who was the genius who thought the most-action starved class in the game needed another 1-action tax at the beginning of a fight ? Even with student of the staff, I ended up not even using arcane stance at all - that's how sucky it was.
6) The recent errata to sure strike kind of killed the class, or at least my way of playing it, which was "play it safe and nova every other round".
But hey, the good news is, on a good day I could crit for 300+ damage AND still get level 8 or 9 slots like disappearance or premonition to shore up my defenses.
What I would love in a Magus remaster:
1) Get rid of manipulate on a spellstrike. Don't make it a feat, because it would be a feat tax. Maybe make it a choice, like "you can reduce your damage by your level and not make it a manipulate action" or "take damage equal to your level and you won't get AOOs this round". Any would be fine with me. There's nothing worse than getting hit and grapple in the midst of your Big Combo™
2) Give the magus a good focus spell that doesn't force him to pilfer it somewhere else.
3) Separate conflux spells from focus spells, so that the magus actually has an incentive to use them (I used them a grand total of zero times in 2 years of campaigning).
4) Don't lose your spell or focus spell on a miss. You already lose 2 actions + 1 to recharge, so with the change to sure strike, this will be mandatory if you don't want to cry tears of blood on a bad roll.
5) Either get rid of arcane cascade altogether or make it free like a barbarian rage.
With those 5 changes, I think Magus would be fixed.
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It's nice to see a newerish player's feedback. I'd like to answer your ideas.
1- I can get the feeling, it makes sense as a balance point but since Magus has quite litteraly nothing else to attack with but normal strikes or spells with worse accuracy it stings extra hard. I'd be fine with the manipulate trait being removed, maybe only while in cascade or past a certain level. That or give more attacking options in the feats so even if you fight an ennemy with reactive strikes you have other useful attacks at your disposal.
2&3- I'll say no here. I get where you are coming from and thought the same before so hear me out:
Focus spells for spellstrike are an "anomaly" the class isn't designed to have a renewable nova, that's why they have so few spell slots. The magus focus spells are meant to be support and utility to buff themselves or get into position etc, sometimes while dealing damage, and as your massive compression tool to get your spellstrike recharged at the same time.
Now, its true that some of them are way less useful than others (Thunderous Strike is quite weak and doesn't compress much actions, and is hard to use if you have allies in melee for example whereas Dimensional Assault is a teleport+strike+recharge)
The sheer power that focus spells from other classes add to Magus (and how easy it is to get since its own feats are pretty bad) completely warps the class' balance and design, kind of like Sure Strike did.
So while I don't expect Focus Spell to be removed from the equation for Magus, I think it'd be better to improve their normal spellcasting and make the options relying on it more appealing, even though most powergamers will still go for the immediate white room damage of Imaginary Weapon.
4- In the playtest it actually worked like this. On a miss you held onto the spell until the end of your next round, and it'd go off on the next melee attack you landed. The idea was neat because you could make use of other type of strikes you could have gotten from a fighter multiclass for example (Vicious Swing spellstrike goes brrr, or Sudden Charge if the target is suddenly far away for some reason) and I think there was a feat called Second Chance Spellstrike or something ? That improve that.
Making that a feat could be interresting honestly. Maybe not as good as the playtest version (which was weak for other reasons) but just that your next Strike before the end of your next turn that hit counts for double MAP but triggers the spell. Could give some value to agile weapons for Magus.
This would make a pretty good level 6 or 8 feat.
5- Yeah, getting something like "Martial Magic Readiness" as a feature that lets you enter Cascade as a free action if you cast a spell or spellstrike during the first turn of combat would be nice.
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Now I want to see how the magus could have been if it wasn't so reliant on spell attacks. If the foundation of spellstrike was simplified to just be strike + spell for 2 actions without recharge, the class could have been more interesting imo.
Could have been a neat parallel to summoner since they have similar action economy with act together.
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4- In the playtest it actually worked like this. On a miss you held onto the spell until the end of your next round, and it'd go off on the next melee attack you landed. The idea was neat because you could make use of other type of strikes you could have gotten from a fighter multiclass for example (Vicious Swing spellstrike goes brrr, or Sudden Charge if the target is suddenly far away for some reason) and I think there was a feat called Second Chance Spellstrike or something ? That improve that.
Making that a feat could be interresting honestly. Maybe not as good as the playtest version (which was weak for other reasons) but just that your next Strike before the end of your next turn that hit counts for double MAP but triggers the spell. Could give some value to agile weapons for Magus.
This would make a pretty good level 6 or 8 feat.
Hold on, if that was in the playtests, why did they remove it?
What kind of broken loophole did players find in order to make the devs backtrack?
That's because in the playtest your rolled the spell attack normally after hitting, but if you critically hit your degree of success on the spell attack would go up by 1 (or down by one for saves).
It was a metamagic free action that would let you hold onto the spell, so spellstriking was 3 actions always, but could carry over the next turn.
This made magus SUPER reliant on True Strike, and basically anyone playtesting it could grab a divination staff and slap a shifting rune on it to make it a sword (back then it wasn't clarified if property runes worked with staves).
This lead to the damage being pretty bad actually and we moved to the current version.
It had some neat feats tho like an upgrade to Bespell Strike that inflicted persistent damage, and at level 18: Second Chance Spellstrike: If on a spellstrike you hit with the weapon but the spell has no effect (failed attack roll, crit success save, immunity) you keep the spell loaded and can attempt to spellstrike it again before the end of your next turn.
The fun part of it is that you could make use of any strike action gotten from other archetypes, so you could load a spell and then sudden charge on the next turn for example.
But other than that, yes it was pretty bad.
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The magus we have is still leagues better than the play test version. Save spells baked into spell strike just gives me a reason to keep int as my second highest stat; not a bad change. I always use my feats for a caster dedication so I always feel like I have enough magic in my kit. Changes to cascade to incentivise it's use more is the only real ask I have
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Oh yeah it is better now.
But there was merit in some of the idea of the playtest. Delivering the spellstrike with any type of melee strike was a fun concept
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2&3- I'll say no here. I get where you are coming from and thought the same before so hear me out:
Focus spells for spellstrike are an "anomaly" the class isn't designed to have a renewable nova, that's why they have so few spell slots. The magus focus spells are meant to be support and utility to buff themselves or get into position etc, sometimes while dealing damage, and as your massive compression tool to get your spellstrike recharged at the same time.
Now, its true that some of them are way less useful than others (Thunderous Strike is quite weak and doesn't compress much actions, and is hard to use if you have allies in melee for example whereas Dimensional Assault is a teleport+strike+recharge)
The sheer power that focus spells from other classes add to Magus (and how easy it is to get since its own feats are pretty bad) completely warps the class' balance and design, kind of like Sure Strike did.
So while I don't expect Focus Spell to be removed from the equation for Magus, I think it'd be better to improve their normal spellcasting and make the options relying on it more appealing, even though most powergamers will still go for the immediate white room damage of Imaginary Weapon.
I agree with the design, but fact is that EVEN when pilfering unbalanced focus spells from other classes, the magus (especially now with sure strike being nerfed) was not broken.
Like the meme says, I could deal an incredible amount of damage with a crit - once in a blue moon, when the stars aligned and I was lucky. The gunslinger in our group actually had a better DPR than me - which is fine, since she didn't have spells to buff herself, so she was SUPPOSED to outDPS me. I was the one to turn the tide with a mass slow, a true target or a maze.
What I mean is that it seemed to me pretty balanced WITH Imaginary Weapon and sure strike. Action economy, even under haste, made it so you couldn't sure strike + Spellstrike every round anyway.
So if in a remaster version the Magus is prevented from using focus spells from other classes (which would be easy to do, like add a line "the magus can only spellstrike with magus spells and focus spells"), there would need to be a massive buff to compensate.
I'm just afraid the magus would become too much like the summoner, as "a martial that can also cast a spell in the same turn he attacks, and can 4 times a day bring a high level spell to the table".
Mhm, I don't think a focus spell built in would be advisable because then there would be no reason to use attack spell slots which is what it's balanced around.
However buffing other aspects is needed (action economy, and in fun ways, not just "spellstrike is just 2 actions now" and options outside of spellstrike) for the class to feel better to play.
There is no issue with focus spells in general being available to them.
The class that actually could use the rework is the psychic.
There is a bit in the sense that it kind of warps the intended balance of the class.
It can be left as is, and just accept it'll be a very powerful/meta option for magus, and buff/rework the rest nonetheless
Or it can be a reason why Magus won't receive buffs to improve action economy or stuff 'cause it'd make that even stronger.
Or it can be addressed to allow for the buffs, the way Sure Strike got nerfed.
If nerfed, either it'll be on psychic dedication, so you only get the cantrips and not amps, or you only get the amps and not cantrip version.
But even then divine focus spells are also super good (fire ray, winter bolt, etc) just take a bit more investment.
So in that case maybe it'd be a spellstrike change.
Or buff all the feats that require a spell slot being used to make them more appealing.
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There is a bit in the sense that it kind of warps the intended balance of the class.
It can be left as is, and just accept it'll be a very powerful/meta option for magus, and buff/rework the rest nonetheless
Or it can be a reason why Magus won't receive buffs to improve action economy or stuff 'cause it'd make that even stronger.
Or it can be addressed to allow for the buffs, the way Sure Strike got nerfed.If nerfed, either it'll be on psychic dedication, so you only get the cantrips and not amps, or you only get the amps and not cantrip version.
But even then divine focus spells are also super good (fire ray, winter bolt, etc) just take a bit more investment.
So in that case maybe it'd be a spellstrike change.
Or buff all the feats that require a spell slot being used to make them more appealing.
You have contingencies for your contingencies Kalaam.
You have contingencies for your contingencies Kalaam.There is a bit in the sense that it kind of warps the intended balance of the class.
It can be left as is, and just accept it'll be a very powerful/meta option for magus, and buff/rework the rest nonetheless
Or it can be a reason why Magus won't receive buffs to improve action economy or stuff 'cause it'd make that even stronger.
Or it can be addressed to allow for the buffs, the way Sure Strike got nerfed.If nerfed, either it'll be on psychic dedication, so you only get the cantrips and not amps, or you only get the amps and not cantrip version.
But even then divine focus spells are also super good (fire ray, winter bolt, etc) just take a bit more investment.
So in that case maybe it'd be a spellstrike change.
Or buff all the feats that require a spell slot being used to make them more appealing.
I have explored a lot of options in my suggestions indeed xD
I think it's normal, if I want to be serious.Or maybe I'm just having an hyperfixation lol
There is no issue with focus spells in general being available to them.
The class that actually could use the rework is the psychic.
This just pushes the problem back to taking cleric or champion dedication for fire ray. As long as there exists a good focus spell to spellstrike with, the magus will want it. It's an inevitable consequence of the current class design.
This just pushes the problem back to taking cleric or champion dedication for fire ray. As long as there exists a good focus spell to spellstrike with, the magus will want it. It's an inevitable consequence of the current class design.There is no issue with focus spells in general being available to them.
The class that actually could use the rework is the psychic.
maybe I am wrong but Fire Ray doesnt seem like a problem.
Its a costly dedication to get +2 cha or wis and if you go champion maybe the champ reaction is a higher priority than domain initiate?Actually it looks fine.
I kinda like the 4 0 1 2 0 2 start
get a great axe and inexorable iron
champ of Sarenrae puts you in heavy armor at level 2 and sets you up for the fire domain.
domain initiate for fire at 4
champ reaction at 6
Looks good fun to play.
Magus Champ of Sarenrae
Magus 6
N
Medium
Human
Aiuvarin
Humanoid
Perception +8; Low-Light Vision
Languages None selected
Skills Acrobatics +8, Arcana +13, Athletics +12, Deception +11, Diplomacy +13, Intimidation +11, Lore: Alcohol +11, Performance +11, Religion +8, Society +11
Str +4, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +3, Wis +0, Cha +3
Items +1 Full PlateAC 25; Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +10
HP 74
Retributive Strike Speed 25 feet
Melee +1 Weapon Striking Greataxe +15 (Sweep, Magical), Damage 2d12+4 S
Bon Mot
Trick Magic Item
Spellstrike
Arcane Cascade
Arcane Prepared Spells DC 21, attack +11; 3rd Haste, Blazing Dive; 2nd Tailwind (H+1), Laughing Fit; 1st ; Cantrips Live Wire, Caustic Blast, Frostbite, Ignition, Shield
Arcane Innate Spells DC 21, attack +11; 1st Charm; Cantrips
Focus Spells (2 points) Thunderous Strike
Fire Ray
Additional Feats Aiuvarin, Champion Dedication, Champion's Reaction, Deity's Domain, Glad-Hand, Hobnobber, Nimble Elf, Supernatural Charm, Toughness
Additional Specials Champion Archetype Cause (Justice Cause), Champion Consecration (Holy Aura), Champion's Aura, Conflux Spells, Deity's Domain (Fire), Hybrid Study (Inexorable Iron), Spellbook, Spellstrike Specifics
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Spells from dedications other than Psychic are a bit harder to get, because different casting stat yes.
However that's why a lot of people say magus can just dump int.
It's easy enough to put 2 points in charisma or wisdom (which some will argue is better than int on magus anyway 'cause better will saves yaddi yaddi yadda)
And as you saw, champion already gives stuff that magus will want anyway (a good reaction, heavy armor, good focus spells and lay on hands)
A cleric dedication wouldn't give as much unless you want divine spells for support and you invest a lot of feats in them, which is possible.
Or oracle, that works too if you just want focus spells.
I will say that the issue of the Psychic's amps is something that could be addressed by changing the Psychic, and probably should be for reasons unrelated to the Magus. Amps are essentially spellshape focus spells, particularly as you can't use spellshapes on amped focus cantrips, but their mechanical wording opens them up to abuse from classes like the Magus, who can't normally use spellshapes on Spellstrike spells, and also makes for a pointless bit of special-casing that often leads to mistakes (many tables I know accidentally use spellshapes with amps and didn't know the sidebar on amps prevented this). That, and amps being easy to poach makes it too easy to gain the core of a Psychic's power as a Psychic multiclass, so they could use a few tweaks, plus some adjustments to their Focus Point gains in view of the remaster.
However, I think the issue with focus spells on Spellstrike is not that dissimilar to that of slot spells: action deferment is a force multiplier that emphasizes burst damage, accuracy compression is a force multiplier that emphasizes burst damage, and so any bursty spell you inject into a Spellstrike is going to make for an even bigger instance of burst damage. This is powerful enough for a Magus to potentially and literally one-shot even boss-level enemies at low levels with the right setup (for instance, a runic weapon spell), which to me crosses a line that Pathfinder normally tries very hard to stay away from. This I think isn't something that becomes a problem only past a certain few times: if this happens even once, I think that's an issue. It's for this reason among others that I believe Spellstriking with cantrips ought to be the default, and doing so with focus spells and slot spells ought to come later in more limited fashion.
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People wanting to blow all their spells on spellstrike isn't the designer's fault.
This is like saying it's not a slot machine company's fault that people spend money at their slots.
Just one more big shocking grasp crit, come on, one more...
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Cantrips are and were always the default. People wanting to blow all their spells on spellstrike isn't the designer's fault.
If the designers didn't want players to blow their spell slots on Spellstrike, they wouldn't have enabled slot spells on Spellstrike by default, much less designed feats and class features that only work if you Spellstrike with a slot spell.
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Cantrips are and were always the default. People wanting to blow all their spells on spellstrike isn't the designer's fault. The Magus is hands down the best class for attacking almost every weakness in the game...
Standby Spell (feat 8): Select one spell you know to be able to turn any prepared spell SLOT into this spell for a spellstrike.
Sustaining Steel (feat 10): When you cast a spell from a spell SLOT (admitedly not spellstrike only) recover HP equal to double the spell's rank.
Lunging Spellstrike (feat 10): When you spellstrike using a spell that ISN'T a cantrip or focus spell, add 5 times the spell's rank to your strike's reach.
Meteoritic Spellstrike (feat 10): When you spellstrike with a spell that ISN'T a cantrip or focus spell, every enemy on the trajectory does a save or take damage
Unsheathing the Sword Light (feat 10): Make a spellstrike with a sword, with a spell that ISN't a cantrip or focus spell to do an emanation or damage around your target.
Arcane Shroud ( feat 14): When you cast a spell or spellstrike with a spell SLOT you gain the benefits
Versatile Spellstrike (feat 18): Turn one spell SLOT into a "whatever spell i want for spellstrike" slot
Double Spellstrike (level 19 captstone class feature): When you spellstrike from a spell SLOT you can spellstrike again with the same spell without expanding another slot within the next minute.
Tell me again how spell slots aren't made to be used for spellstriking and the magus is designed to not do it.
Yes cantrips are your default, slots are you novas.
Focus Spells clearly weren't meant to be such a meta "best option" thing.
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Personally I'm of the opinion that save-based spellstrike is going to yield higher averages than expected, but I think the build is going to rely heavily on force fang recharges to help pump numbers because the subclass confluxes are hit and miss-- Laughing Shadow can do without for example but its particular about the order you act in to make sure MAP is on the normal strike until dimensional disappearance comes online and that can get weird when you're really looking to reposition via the teleport.
I like the success effects, the action compression and throwing rolls at different defenses.
Yeah honestly it's nice to be able to do that baseline, even compressing the AoE to a single square that's neat flexibility.
I'd honestly like to have some sort of other benefit to the spell's accuracy when doing so (penalty based on arcane cascade's base damage when in the stance, or just a -1 on hit, -3 on crit the the main target's save etc) but it's a step in the right direction I feel.
Using a spell slot leads to a high risk/high reward situation.
That's without factoring heightening those spells using higher slots.
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Lol that's funny, cars aren't meant to burn nitrous but they can. Is it the car manufacturer fault if you do. Same thing. You absolutely can use slots, but if that was meant to be the baseline you would have gotten more than 4. I seriously doubt that you were meant to go Nova every round. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I'm detecting a shifting of the goalposts here. Your point thus far was that the designers didn't want the Magus to Spellstrike with spell slots, which was proven false quite comprehensively. Now, your new point is that the Magus isn't meant to "go nova every round" with spell slots, which is obvious given their limited spell slots, but presumes that quantity of spell slots is relevant here when it isn't really in practice. Just because the Magus has limited spell slots does not mean players won't try to use those spell slots to go nova, and it certainly doesn't mean the developers didn't enable this with a bunch of mechanics that specifically require you to Spellstrike with a spell slot (including one that doubles the number of times you can go nova). You are correct, just because you can doesn't mean you should, but because you can, people will, and it's disproportionately effective at low levels.