Doubts about the Swashbuckler archetype after remastering

[Xellos03]

I find the new Swashbuckler quite interesting. Getting panache is now easier and makes it more resourceful, but has the archetype been revised as well?
I see that it is identical, only names and description have been changed, but the basic class has changed so much that, in my point of view, now this multiclass does not make sense.
Let me explain. Before when you got Panache, the multiclass gave you the +5 bonus to movement and the +1 to actions that Panache could give you, so it made this "buff" interesting. Entering Panache and looking for actions that would give it to you was interesting, plus it gave that personality to the character.
Now it gives absolutely nothing. When you take this "subclass" you gain a skill (like bon mot, that you can get as a skill feat) and trained in a skill, that is to say, the same that any other subclass could give you, the skill and the trained but, unlike other classes in this case it doesn't give you anything "special" of the class itself. Because Panache gives you absolutely nothing and doing any action to get it is useless.
You need to open the multiclass and later take the finisher feat so you can do +1 damage or +1d6 in finisher, considering the level and the infinite better options this is the worst.
Then at level 8, just like before the remaster, you can take a increment mov feat, suddenly being swashbuckler gives you +5 mov and +10 in panache. This also made more sense when Panache gave you +5, and it was a coherent progress, now it's just that. Take +10 in panache just for the sake of it. But until you reach that level you have a character that supposedly his quality is the panache, but does absolutely nothing.
Anything I missed? Because I really feel that panache is narrative for the subclass and for that you don't need to spend feats.
Sorry for my English, it is not my first language and I used a translator.

[Captain Morgan]

Many of the multiclass archetypes got worse in Player Core 2. They were definitely prioritizing the classes themselves and archetypes were mostly an after thought. I'm pretty sure champion reactions off the archetype don't technically work because they now work based off your champion's aura which you can't get from the archetype.

Alchemist and maaaaaybe Oracle are the big exceptions.

[moosher12]

Yeah, I ended up homeruling the swashbuckler archetype to revert back to its old functionality.

[BigHatMarisa]

It definitely feels like an oopsie more than intentional. After all, they went and purposefully gave Rage its old -1 to AC for the archetype, so I don't see why they couldn't have made panache for the archetype like old main-class panache instead of doing, uh
literally nothing.

Even really underwhelming multiclass archetypes give SOMETHING mechanically besides their skill and class DC proficiencies. Swashbuckler's pretty much is a nothing feat now.

[PossibleCabbage]

"Panache does literally nothing except enabling finishers" is also a problem with the Swashbuckler itself. Since it does you no good if you can gain panache faster than you can spend it and have no reason to keep it.

So this might end up being an errata for the class itself.

[Ascalaphus]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

"Panache does literally nothing except enabling finishers" is also a problem with the Swashbuckler itself. Since it does you no good if you can gain panache faster than you can spend it and have no reason to keep it.

So this might end up being an errata for the class itself.

For the main class, panache has some effect on your speed. But I think it's working as intended that there's not much need to hold on to your panache. They made it easier to gain and less useful to hold on to, because they want people to do more "shenanigan to gain panache => finisher => repeat".

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

Xellos03 wrote:

When you take this "subclass" you gain a skill (like bon mot, that you can get as a skill feat) and trained in a skill

You don't get bon mot etc, only trained in a skill (acrobatics or the one from your style).

The issue is that the bonus part of Panache got moved to Stylish Combatant, and the archetype does not get that.

Xellos03 wrote:

Then at level 8, just like before the remaster, you can take a increment mov feat, suddenly being swashbuckler gives you +5 mov and +10 in panache.

This makes me think that the change could be intentional.

Feels bad though. I hope for errata.

[Xellos03]

Thanks for your answers, it seems that this is not just my perception.

Does paizo usually make changes to this kind of thing or is it something that rarely happens?

It's a little sad that with the work behind it, such ugly details remain.

[moosher12]

Xellos03 wrote:

Thanks for your answers, it seems that this is not just my perception.

Does paizo usually make changes to this kind of thing or is it something that rarely happens?

It's a little sad that with the work behind it, such ugly details remain.

This is a special case, because the remaster project is upending some things, and a lot of people are confused, and I doubt every writer has full mastery of every aspect of the game. (Look at how the Starfinder 2E playtest gave the crossbolter the bow weapon type when then crossbow weapon type now exists). Additionally, while many errata are buffs, there are occasional nerfs, so it is not unheard of.

In my honest opinion, if I was to make a prediction, I think a different person worked on the swashbuckler archetype than the people who worked on the swashbuckler class. Whatever happened, I don't think the writer responsible for touching up the archetype took into account that they would be granting an inert panache functionality until Level 4.

Paizo has shown they were willing to nerf instead of granting full access, or outright denying. The barbarian got a -1 penalty to ac, and the monk's flurry of blows was nerfed to having a 1d4 round recharge time. They probably looked at the swashbuckler dedication, and forgot about the change to the class. The class designers probably planned for the archetype designers to have given a partial boost, such as either the speed boost or the skill boost, but not both. But the archetype writer might not have noticed the change to implement it.

[Ascalaphus]

I think this one might actually get errata at some point (maybe when we get the first batch of errata, maybe in the next printing..) because a completely dud feature is something they usually do end up fixing.

[PossibleCabbage]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I think this one might actually get errata at some point (maybe when we get the first batch of errata, maybe in the next printing..) because a completely dud feature is something they usually do end up fixing.

Well, the Fighter dedication has given training in martial weapons and training in a single skill since the original CRB, despite the fact something like fully half of the classes already have martial weapon proficiency.

They even made this worse in PC1 since the general feat "weapon proficiency" gives auto-scaling and the fighter dedication does not (it costs a class feat for that, and comes a level later.)

[Tridus]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Many of the multiclass archetypes got worse in Player Core 2. They were definitely prioritizing the classes themselves and archetypes were mostly an after thought. I'm pretty sure champion reactions off the archetype don't technically work because they now work based off your champion's aura which you can't get from the archetype.

Alchemist and maaaaaybe Oracle are the big exceptions.

I'm pretty sure the Champion thing is an error rather than deliberate, because even printing the Champion's Reaction feat doesn't make sense if it can't work due to missing the Champions Aura. Both it and Oracle Archetype not being able to lower Cursebound are in the PFS rulings, which is the closest thing to errata we have.

But yes, a lot of the multiclass archetypes got nerfed. Oracle is one of the better ones now as its ability to use Cursebound abilities is exactly the same as a full Oracle until level 11, and some of those level 1 Cursebound feats could easily be worth picking up (Nudge the Scales is a really solid third action twice a combat).

moosher12 wrote:

Paizo has shown they were willing to nerf instead of granting full access, or outright denying. The barbarian got a -1 penalty to ac, and the monk's flurry of blows was nerfed to having a 1d4 round recharge time.

Strictly speaking, the Barbarian Archetype didn't gain a -1 penalty to AC. Barbarian Archetype had that in legacy. Full Barbarian no longer has it in Remaster.

Swashbuckler in this case ended up worse in this regard while Barbarian didn't change, so its not quite the same. Monk definitely got nerfed.

[batimpact]

Tridus wrote:

But yes, a lot of the multiclass archetypes got nerfed. Oracle is one of the better ones now as its ability to use Cursebound abilities is exactly the same as a full Oracle until level 11, and some of those level 1 Cursebound feats could easily be worth picking up (Nudge the Scales is a really solid third action twice a combat).

Oracle multiclass coming from one of the worst to what it is now is so wild. I don’t know if it’s on the level of Psychic just yet, but just surface level, it looks really good. Like that cursebound until level 11 observation I didn’t even realize. What’s an important feature are not even really able to poach? The domains, I think? That’s not like missing out on Unleash Psyche or Sorcerous Potency.

[Riddlyn]

You still get access to domains. Whisper of weakness is a good 1st action, learn any weaknesses they have plus their lowest save modifier and a +2 to attack roll or skill action with the attack trait

[Tridus]

batimpact wrote:

Tridus wrote:

But yes, a lot of the multiclass archetypes got nerfed. Oracle is one of the better ones now as its ability to use Cursebound abilities is exactly the same as a full Oracle until level 11, and some of those level 1 Cursebound feats could easily be worth picking up (Nudge the Scales is a really solid third action twice a combat).

Oracle multiclass coming from one of the worst to what it is now is so wild. I don’t know if it’s on the level of Psychic just yet, but just surface level, it looks really good. Like that cursebound until level 11 observation I didn’t even realize. What’s an important feature are not even really able to poach? The domains, I think? That’s not like missing out on Unleash Psyche or Sorcerous Potency.

Oracle doesn't get anything from domains itself anymore without spending a feat, so not that. With Divine Access pushed off to level 11, the answer in anything that goes from 1-10 is really just "advanced revelation focus spells" since the archetype can't get those until 12, and Debilitating Dichotomy (archetype 16, but unless you're on a class with very good Will you probably don't want it anyway).

Honestly level 1 Oracle feats have several really good options and there's no limitations around that at all (as compared to something like Bard or Druid where the feats are locked to Muse/Order), so the archetype is just open season. That makes it a very good archetype and also highlights just how little the Mysteries are doing now vs old Oracle. (In general I'm not a fan of these changes, but for archetype purposes it's clearly great.)

Looking at it vs Psychic, Oracle's advantage there is that if you already have good focus spells, Cursebound abilities are not competing for focus points the way Psychic is. If you don't have good focus spells... they're both pretty great.

[MrRetsej]

I honestly hope the Player Core 2 gets heavily erattad, especially regarding the Swashbucker archetype. As it stands, it's literally nothing but a feat tax in a system that tried to sell itself as doing away with feat taxes.

[PossibleCabbage]

MrRetsej wrote:

I honestly hope the Player Core 2 gets heavily erattad, especially regarding the Swashbucker archetype. As it stands, it's literally nothing but a feat tax in a system that tried to sell itself as doing away with feat taxes.

You would think that, but the fighter archetype has been a feat tax for roughly half the classes since the CRB was printed (well, you get training in a skill.)

[Ryangwy]

MrRetsej wrote:

I honestly hope the Player Core 2 gets heavily erattad, especially regarding the Swashbucker archetype. As it stands, it's literally nothing but a feat tax in a system that tried to sell itself as doing away with feat taxes.

Archetype feats, especially multiclass archetype feats, have always been 'feat taxes' and nobody really cares because of the sheer amount of feats they grant you access to. This only really works in the PF2e paradigm, where the majority of the good feats are class locked for balance and mechanical reasons, and as such giving access to them is in and of itself a powerful choice. That's distinct from the older systems where feats were by default 'free' aside from prerequisites, and as such you really had to ask why this set of feats needed to be locked behind a useless feat when that one wasn't. That's the feat tax that was eliminated.

Now, Swashbuckler Archetype not giving the full benefits of panche it did before is probably a mistake, but that's very distinct from the feat tax argument.

[Squiggit]

Ryangwy wrote:

Archetype feats, especially multiclass archetype feats, have always been 'feat taxes' and nobody really cares because of the sheer amount of feats they grant you access to.

Since when? People have complained since PF2 was new about feat taxes, especially egregiously bad ones like fighter dedication.

Feat taxes suck.

[PossibleCabbage]

I feel like "archetype feats are low in the hierarchy of most powerful class feats" is a large part of why "Free Archetype" is so popular.

Like it matters less that the Swashbuckler dedication has a dead feature for at least 2 levels, and the fighter dedication is worse than a general feat, when you're getting a normal level 2 class feat and a dedication feat.

[Ascalaphus]

Champion (armor, sanctification), Rogue (light armor for casters), and all of the caster dedications (cantrips, and using wands/scrolls/staves) all give you something substantial to use for their dedication feat.

But yeah, there are some things left unfixed. Rogue's light armor proficiency doesn't scale, which is odd compared to other remaster stuff. Fighter ded is likewise disappointing. But swashbuckler really looks the worst.

[ElementalofCuteness]

The entire Multiclass Archetypes need a Errata for multiple reasons or at least heavy homebrewing because there are something that just don't work well or at all. It is like a half-made system because they don't expect you to actually want archetypes (I swear). Like Barbarian MC rage giving -1 AC, why, it's not powerful enough to justify it now (It never was.). Fighters never getting anything good but Reactive Strike, Swashbuckler as a feat tax, Monk and Champion both got NERFED for no good reason. Sentinel makes the nerf to Champion feel worse since it was a good class regardless before Player Core 2.

Archetypes are a mess end of story, Starlit Sentinel is great, Wandering Chef is terrible if you're not a +2 INT then sure but Alchemist is Wandering Chef just you need +2 Int. Both from Tian Xia Character Guide.

Sorcerer should give Sorcerous Potency at level 6 or 10 like many classes and their class gimmick.