Just kill the feat-gating on crafting stuff.

[QuidEst]

Computers Legend, and can't write an app. Why am I taking the Computers skill if not for that sort of thing?

Crafting already has snares, alchemical items, and magical gear locked behind feats. Does it really need more feats to stop people from crafting medicinal items? Why are hybrid items not even craftable, period?

We only get so many skill feats, and every one that has to go towards just unlocking something is one less feat doing something fun.

Let's say I'm making a roboticist. I need to advance Computers and Crafting already just for software and hardware. I need Programmer for a feat, and... okay, Tech Crafter isn't actually required.

Suggestion: Some categories of items require being Expert in crafting/computers/whatever. They have first level skill feats that let you craft them just using Trained, and if you become Expert non-temporarily, you can freely retrain to another first-level feat for the skill.

[ElementalofCuteness]

I kinda agree, there is not enough skill feats to justify this requirement. It feels rather odd they would do this but maybe it something for Mechanic in the future?

[BigHatMarisa]

Frankly, isn't the problem behind this the fact that ALL CRAFTING EVER is somehow governed by the same skill? The feats are there to effectively allow you to express what you specialize in, but it's only a problem because for some reason crafting magical staves is governed by the same skill as building apps for OS/2 Drift?

It kinda worked out when there was only really Alchemical Crafting, Magical Crafting, and Trap/Snarecrafting, but now that we're getting Pharmaceuticals and Programming and everything...

Why aren't we just allowing Crafting using the thing-to-be-crafted's relevant skill instead? It nixes the need for "specialization gating" and instead you could just take, like, a first-level skill feat that allows you to Craft these items with this relevant skill, like Computers for apps, Engineering Lore for robots and starship components, Medicine for Pharmaceuticals, etc.

[Gayel Nord]

It is more like the skills are ill ajusted for the setting of Starfinder.

[DMurnett]

Hybrid items are craftable. Basically everything Crafting in the books specifies that you just need Magical Crafting. If the hybrid item you're making is gated behind more than one feat you need both Magical Crafting and the other feat (such as Pharmaceutical Crafting.) I agree that it would probably be faaar too bloated at the moment though, unless Alchemical and Snarecrafting get dropped from SF altogether, but that does does seem to be the case. At the very very least it seems to me like Starfinder's feat gating won't be worse than Pathfinder's. For a mixed system game it will be downright horrid, but frankly you have much bigger problems if you're running mixed system.

[Driftbourne]

A lot of crafting in Starfinder should just come down to selecting a file and then hitting print on a 3D printer.

Crafting to me in Starfinder fits in when you want to handcraft a replica of an item from PF2e. Using crafting to fix a reactor core leak just doesn't sound right. Just as using engineering in PF2e to make leather armor doesn't sound right either.

[Dragonchess Player]

Driftbourne wrote:

A lot of crafting in Starfinder should just come down to selecting a file and then hitting print on a 3D printer.

Yes, the Fabricator feat. Which only requires Trained proficiency in Computers...

Of course, you still need to acquire the file (formula) containing the schematics, etc. to tell the "3D printer" (creator capsule) how to convert the UBPs into something usable.

Also note, being able to "3D print" equipment doesn't help if you want to repair it if it gets damaged.

[exequiel759]

BigHatMarisa wrote:

Frankly, isn't the problem behind this the fact that ALL CRAFTING EVER is somehow governed by the same skill? The feats are there to effectively allow you to express what you specialize in, but it's only a problem because for some reason crafting magical staves is governed by the same skill as building apps for OS/2 Drift?

In a sense yes, which is something I also think is a problem in SF2e too (I need a feat to craft a magical sword but I don't to create a vessel that runs on an engine when my character took Specialty Crafting into carpentry). I don't mean to separate crafting into multiple skills like it used to be (god, please no) but rather that I think all these feats could be easily removed and just be part of the regular Crafting skill. Sadly, we are little too late for that at this point, and I don't see why Paizo would still force people to take stuff like Alchemical Crafting or Magical Crafting in PF2e but not to create technological items in SF2e.

The only solution I could see is just give all the craft-related stuff to Crafting even if it doesn't make a ton of sense from a logical point of view (well, its not like a master in Arcana can craft scrolls without Crafting either).

[Driftbourne]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

A lot of crafting in Starfinder should just come down to selecting a file and then hitting print on a 3D printer.

Yes, the Fabricator feat. Which only requires Trained proficiency in Computers...

Of course, you still need to acquire the file (formula) containing the schematics, etc. to tell the "3D printer" (creator capsule) how to convert the UBPs into something usable.

Also note, being able to "3D print" equipment doesn't help if you want to repair it if it gets damaged.

The other place crafting comes into play in a sci-fi setting is being stranded on a planet and having to make or fix things without the right tools or a 3D printer.

[Milo v3]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Yes, the Fabricator feat. Which only requires Trained proficiency in Computers...

Of course, you still need to acquire the file (formula) containing the schematics, etc. to tell the "3D printer" (creator capsule) how to convert the UBPs into something usable.

Also note, being able to "3D print" equipment doesn't help if you want to repair it if it gets damaged.

Pressing print shouldn't eat up a feat.

[Dragonchess Player]

Milo v3 wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Yes, the Fabricator feat. Which only requires Trained proficiency in Computers...

Of course, you still need to acquire the file (formula) containing the schematics, etc. to tell the "3D printer" (creator capsule) how to convert the UBPs into something usable.

Also note, being able to "3D print" equipment doesn't help if you want to repair it if it gets damaged.

Pressing print shouldn't eat up a feat.

It doesn't.

"Pressing print" without the feat just means you pay full cost at a public/store "printer" (stores will probably not have large stocks of items and instead rely on UBPs and creator capsules to manufacture the item on the spot), because you are using the default settings and paying the service fees. Read the Fabricator feat again (emphasis mine):

Starfinder Second Edition Playtest Rulebook wrote:

You know how to configure and print items out of UBPs in creator capsules. You use technology to more efficiently and quickly produce technological items...

[Driftbourne]

We haven't seen the 2e starship rules yet, but SF1e had a tech workshop expansion bay option. This is important because a lot of your downtime in Starfinder will be during traveling on your starship.

[Milo v3]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

It doesn't.

"Pressing print" without the feat just means you pay full cost at a public/store "printer" (stores will probably not have large stocks of items and instead rely on UBPs and creator capsules to manufacture the item on the spot), because you are using the default settings and paying the service fees. Read the Fabricator feat again (emphasis mine):

Starfinder Second Edition Playtest Rulebook wrote:

You know how to configure and print items out of UBPs in creator capsules. You use technology to more efficiently and quickly produce technological items...

Without the fabricator feat, you can't use the creator capsules at all according to both what you just quoted and the creator capsule section. The more efficiently refers to how it goes from 4 days to 1 hour when using these means. If you want to press print, you need the feat.

Also buying items that other people are printing, isn't the same as pressing print, any more than buying swords someone else forged isn't the same as making the sword yourself.

If you have a printer on your ship or house with the formulas already built in, there's no reason why it should take a feat to press print.

[Laclale♪]

If these feat-gating were omitted due to gain free, by more tech-oriented class. I mean, Technomancer or Mechanic or an class archetype of Inventor.

[moosher12]

I mean, to be fair. Even 3D printing requires a bit of skill. That's why folks would consider going to a print shop to buy something at a market price, rather than learning to 3D print on their own, which in its own right, is a skill even if you're not designing the CAD files.

[Milo v3]

moosher12 wrote:

I mean, to be fair. Even 3D printing requires a bit of skill. That's why folks would consider going to a print shop to buy something at a market price, rather than learning to 3D print on their own, which in its own right, is a skill even if you're not designing the CAD files.

In starfinder's setting there are commonly public machines where you just select what you want to print with like a small set of level 0 and 1 items, and all you need to do is select the one you want to print then pour in the UPBs and wait.

[Gobhaggo]

Yeah I always homebrew it so that crafting any kind of item doesn't need a feat. And anyone can get like 2-4 formulas

but I'm also someone that doesn't like the idea of Crafting's normal niche to be 'walking shop'.

if I had the time and will I'd prefer if Crafting was more of a in-combat built stuff and in-exploration macguyvering and reshaping. Like maybe you can spend 1a to gain resistance to a specific phys damage type until you're hit by that damage, make cover anywhere, change a weapon's damage type to another phys damage type, etc, etc.

[moosher12]

Milo v3 wrote:

moosher12 wrote:

I mean, to be fair. Even 3D printing requires a bit of skill. That's why folks would consider going to a print shop to buy something at a market price, rather than learning to 3D print on their own, which in its own right, is a skill even if you're not designing the CAD files.

In starfinder's setting there are commonly public machines where you just select what you want to print with like a small set of level 0 and 1 items, and all you need to do is select the one you want to print then pour in the UPBs and wait.

Fair nuff, I've only read the Core Rulebook, so I was not aware of that lore tidbit.

[schnoodle]

I like to specialize in crafting from a flavor standpoint, but mechanically it just feels like investment for no real gain, even in PF2e. If I don't gain anything from it, make it built into the system via Activities or some such available to all.

I also agree with the sentiment posted in here that Crafting as a skill on its own doesn't fit Starfinder (and frankly, it never fit pf2e either. too many types of things can be crafted, all covered by one skill?).

Crafting/Engineering should, at the very least, be treated like they treat Lore now to some extent: allowing specialization, adding some sort of benefit that isn't negligible.

Like, what if I wanna make a character be a gunsmith specifically, with access to unique mods or cool abilities? That can't even really be accomplished by *Inventor* right now, let alone Crafting. Crafting is incredibly hollow and boring.

[moosher12]

Somewhat agreed. Like, in practicality, I actually let my players use relevant Lore skills to Craft instead of Crafting. I'd actually let my player if they asked, take a Lore: Weaponsmith instead of crafting, to get an easier DC over just having a Crafting skill, in exchange for having a narrower range of craft. I'd willingly let an Alchemist instead take a Lore: Alchemy skill for the same reason, as I think the focus is a fair tradeoff for a slightly easier DC.

But conversely, I like that Crafting works standalone, the same way I'm happy that they made Piloting a core skill. I think general Crafting is fine. And I like the idea of allowing the Piloting skill in a Pathfinder game, but I think that, for the same reason as Crafting above, I'd still want to allow Driving, Air Piloting, Space Piloting, and Sailing Lores to be focused Lore skill options, that let you Pilot a narrower range of vehicles easier.

[Gobhaggo]

schnoodle wrote:

I like to specialize in crafting from a flavor standpoint, but mechanically it just feels like investment for no real gain, even in PF2e. If I don't gain anything from it, make it built into the system via Activities or some such available to all.

I also agree with the sentiment posted in here that Crafting as a skill on its own doesn't fit Starfinder (and frankly, it never fit pf2e either. too many types of things can be crafted, all covered by one skill?).

Crafting/Engineering should, at the very least, be treated like they treat Lore now to some extent: allowing specialization, adding some sort of benefit that isn't negligible.

Like, what if I wanna make a character be a gunsmith specifically, with access to unique mods or cool abilities? That can't even really be accomplished by *Inventor* right now, let alone Crafting. Crafting is incredibly hollow and boring.

Wrestlers aren't great climber, and swimming isn't a prerequisite for deadlifting.

Just like performance meaning you can sing and dance and act and make a great speech I'd prefer if Crafting just does away with any specialization--yes you're blacksmith /can/ knit and brew alchemical elixers and cut magical gems without any skill feats.

[exequiel759]

I do agree Crafting would be much better as something you are able to do without investing into into feats, but that if you want to specialize you can take stuff like Specialty Crafting. However, the idea of going back to have like a thousand skills for each small category of thing you craft is IMO a step on the wrong direction. Each skill encompasses multiple actions that don't really need anything to do with each other besides sharing a common umbrella "theme". Like Gobhaggo said, someone that knows how to swim or climb doesn't necesarily know how to do the other, or at least not equally as good, or how someone with Nature is also equally as good as commanding animals as remembering very specific details about animals, beasts, fey, and plants or even every single primal spell. The system would be needlessly bloaty if there was enough granularity to represent how you are good at X but not as good as X under the same skill.

[moosher12]

Yeah, why I think Crafting should stay, and why I think Piloting as its own skill is a move in the right direction. Generalized Crafting is important, and if a player wants to focus one, they can reasonably focus one or two on top of crafting, especially via the Additional Lore skill or the Specialized Crafting feat. But making Crafting exclusive to Lore skills would, to support what Exequiel said, create the Pathfinder 1E problem of Crafting switching from a Feat tax to a Multiple Skill tax, which I would not necessarily consider better.

[Trashloot]

BigHatMarisa wrote:

Frankly, isn't the problem behind this the fact that ALL CRAFTING EVER is somehow governed by the same skill? The feats are there to effectively allow you to express what you specialize in, but it's only a problem because for some reason crafting magical staves is governed by the same skill as building apps for OS/2 Drift?

It kinda worked out when there was only really Alchemical Crafting, Magical Crafting, and Trap/Snarecrafting, but now that we're getting Pharmaceuticals and Programming and everything...

Why aren't we just allowing Crafting using the thing-to-be-crafted's relevant skill instead? It nixes the need for "specialization gating" and instead you could just take, like, a first-level skill feat that allows you to Craft these items with this relevant skill, like Computers for apps, Engineering Lore for robots and starship components, Medicine for Pharmaceuticals, etc.

Items should be categorized in to groups. Maybe we keep them broad like Armor, Consumables, Weapons.

Or we seperate them thematically: Talismans, Wands, Melee Weapons, Healing Items, ...

Then there should be Lore Skill for every category which locks the crafting of that category. Something like Armor Crarfter. Not sure how to deal with Untrained Improv. Additional Lore would work as normal.

Crafting should also use the victory point system. Lets say you need 5 VPs to finish the item. Crit Success gives you 2 VPs. Crit Fails take 1 VP away.
The DC is determined by the items level. Every Crafting attempt costs money and time. The Interval / Time you need to spend per crafting check is determined by the category of the item. Consumeables and amunition should only take an hour or a few per check while Armors and Weapons should take maybe 12-24 hours per check.

This system would get rid of crafting as a skill and it would make creating lower level items faster and cheaper while it would be a long and costly process to create something you are not ready for.

[moosher12]

I would not recommend requiring Crafting Lores, coming from Pathfinder 1E.

1E used a system where you had to invest individually in Craft: Alchemy, Craft: Weapons, Craft: Armor, etc, etc. It was a huge feat tax that added up, on top of already needing feats to enable specific craftings, like Craft Rings, Craft Scrolls, Craft Magic Items, etc.

A single craft training in Pathfinder 2E is also very expensive, in comparison to one in 1E, which felt draining with a free point allocation system.

In 2E, you only get one training every 2 levels. In 1E, you'd get easily several points to allocate per level.

That's why I'm in favor of letting Crafting be a blanket term, and having alternate Crafting Lores as an option, but not a requirement. (Though, letting a Crafting Lore work around a feat is a potential avenue, but I don't have enough information to know the actual feasibility of it).

No comment on alternate Crafting Systems, as those are frankly table's choice. I use a custom Crafting system in my games, for example.

[Trashloot]

moosher12 wrote:

I would not recommend requiring Crafting Lores, coming from Pathfinder 1E.

1E used a system where you had to invest individually in Craft: Alchemy, Craft: Weapons, Craft: Armor, etc, etc. It was a huge feat tax that added up, on top of already needing feats to enable specific craftings, like Craft Rings, Craft Scrolls, Craft Magic Items, etc.

A single craft training in Pathfinder 2E is also very expensive, in comparison to one in 1E, which felt draining with a free point allocation system.

In 2E, you only get one training every 2 levels. In 1E, you'd get easily several points to allocate per level.

That's why I'm in favor of letting Crafting be a blanket term, and having alternate Crafting Lores as an option, but not a requirement. (Though, letting a Crafting Lore work around a feat is a potential avenue, but I don't have enough information to know the actual feasibility of it).

No comment on alternate Crafting Systems, as those are frankly table's choice. I use a custom Crafting system in my games, for example.

Im not sure if Pathfinder2e improved on PF2e. Wanna craft Magic Items? Invest 1 of your 3 Legendary skills in to crafting and spend 1 of your 10 Skill feats on crafting. Oh and you really don't get any benefits compared to just buying the item. Except for the rare case where you have way to much downtime. But then you could maybe just earn income and buy the item anyways.

Wanna craft Consumables? You could spend way to much downtime on that. Or you pick up the Alchemist / Herbalist Dedication for 1 of your 10 Class Feats in order to quickly craft somthing.
Oh and when you want to craft alchemicals without spending a class feat on it you need to spend 1 of your 10 Skill feats as well.

There is another problem thoug. Level based DCs assume that you get item bonues so you kinda want to buy crafting items which help you craft better in order to get no bonus compared to buying something.

Crafting feels weird in Pathfinder 2e. You can make it cool if you really try. But it feels like it was designed for Society games where downtime is a resource you can spend between missions.

[Gobhaggo]

If performance can be both poetry and dance, then Crafting can be both blacksmithing and knitting.

I simply think that Crafting, really any skill, being designed around downtime is a mistake. Crafting should be more exloration and encounter based; spend 10 minutes once per day and you get a batch of consumables, grant a shield an extra X hardness, change a melee weapon or physical ammunition damage type's, Straight up upgrade cover or make one