The PC2 Dragonblood Heritage allows cloth casters and monks to hit the +5 AC cap at level 1

[Tsubutai]

The new Dragonblood heritage has a level 1 feat called Scaly Hide that gives the character a +2 item bonus to AC with a dex cap of +3 when unarmored, with the item bonus being cumulative with armor potency runes, mystic armor, and bands of force. With this feat, any monk or cloth caster with at least +3 dex can hit the +5 AC cap at level 1, when previously they'd have had to wait until level 10 (for a dex monk starting with +4 dex) or level 15 (for a cloth caster or Strength monk not using Mountain Stance) to do so. Since the effect is cumulative with mystic armor, a cloth caster willing to spend a level 1 slot on that spell can even reach the cap when starting with just +2 dex.

This has two interesting consequences - first, Monk becomes hands down the tankiest class at low levels due to the combination of Expert unarmored proficiency from Level 1 and the +1 or +2 AC granted by this feat. Second, all cloth casters become just as good as regular martials at avoiding hits.

[Riddlyn]

It looks like most of the dragon disciple feats got moved to the heritage. That used to be a 4th level feat, that generally called for you to have some connection to dragons (dragon instinct, draconic bloodline, be a kobold).

[Captain Morgan]

Riddlyn wrote:

It looks like most of the dragon disciple feats got moved to the heritage. That used to be a 4th level feat, that generally called for you to have some connection to dragons (dragon instinct, draconic bloodline, be a kobold).

Not as a prerequisite, though, just access. All being one of those things did was let you ignore the regular uncommon requirement to ask your GM. And IIRC dragon blooded is an uncommon heritage with no access entry.

[SuperBidi]

Tsubutai wrote:

Second, all cloth casters become just as good as regular martials at avoiding hits.

Armor Proficiency gives the same bonus to all casters right at level 3 (or 1 for Humans). It's only a change for Monks.

[Eoran]

I had +4 Dex and Mage Armor - now named Mystic Armor - at level 1. Yes, I am reasonably effective at avoiding being hit. Especially after I gained Alchemist archetype and learned to make Drakeheart Mutagen.

Having an equivalent AC to a martial doesn't make me a tank though. Or even make me a martial.

[Teridax]

I get the feeling this feat is going to get errata'd for a few reasons:

When you look at every other "natural armor" kind of feat you can get at level 1, e.g. the Titan Nagaji's scales, the Kashrishi's Tough Skin, or the Coral Athamaru's plates, all of those feats follow the same structure, setting that natural armor as medium armor with a Strength requirement and a check and Speed penalty. By contrast, Scaly Hide just straight-up buffs your unarmored defense with no Strength requirement or check penalty.

As mentioned in the OP, this lets every cloth caster match martial AC at level 1. Not only do I not think this is intended, the fact that this is by far the cheapest and most reliable means of achieving this highly desirable stat value means this risks warping character-building choices significantly. Until the errata hits, we are likely to end up seeing a lot of Dragonblood Cloistered Clerics, Psychics, Sorcerers, Witches, and Wizards.

As also mentioned in the OP, this lets Monks max out on AC at level 1, but it actually goes beyond that: normally, Strength Monks find themselves at an AC deficit compared to Dex Monks, but with this ancestry feat they can actually exceed the AC a Dex Monk would get unaided by Scaly Hide, all while being able to deal far more damage through things like Dragon Stance and making much stronger Athletics checks. There would be effectively no reason to play a Dex Monk compared to a Strength Monk with this feat, outside of a few ranged builds.

So until this feat changes to be brought in line with other natural armor feats, we'd best get ready to see a lot of Dragonblood PCs all of a sudden, particularly with a handful of the same classes.

[Riddlyn]

I doubt it will get erratad, it's mostly a copy and paste feat. The main difference is they removed the resistance and dropped the level. This fest has already been around for years

[Tsubutai]

SuperBidi wrote:

Tsubutai wrote:

Second, all cloth casters become just as good as regular martials at avoiding hits.

Armor Proficiency gives the same bonus to all casters right at level 3 (or 1 for Humans). It's only a change for Monks.

Aside from coming on line later, the big difference is that casters using armor proficiency have to invest in strength to avoid penalties since they'll need at least studded leather to hit the cap whereas the dragonblood feat lets them dump it and focus on other more useful stats.

[Teridax]

Riddlyn wrote:

I doubt it will get erratad, it's mostly a copy and paste feat. The main difference is they removed the resistance and dropped the level. This fest has already been around for years

... as a 4th-level archetype feat. I cannot stress enough how important this distinction is, because it makes all the difference when building your character:

If Scales of the Dragon is how you're trying to increase your cloth caster's AC, you're going to have to wait until much later, and spend your first 3 levels with poor AC, so this wouldn't solve your problem.

Because level 5 is when you get your ability boosts, which wouldn't change your AC with Scales of the Dragon, the comparative benefit you'd get is much smaller.

Sacrificing two class feats to get this AC is much, much costlier than one 1st-level ancestry feat.

All of which is to say that Scales of the Dragon is far more expensive and less accessible than Scaly Hide, and provides a much less impactful benefit due to being a higher-level feat, which is why the feat is relatively unproblematic in its current state. Making that benefit accessible at level 1 and at the cost of just an ancestry feat, rather than two class feats, makes a massive difference, and puts it significantly out of line with other ancestry feats and heritages that achieve the same purpose.

[Eoran]

Teridax wrote:

All of which is to say that Scales of the Dragon is far more expensive and less accessible than Scaly Hide, and provides a much less impactful benefit due to being a higher-level feat, which is why the feat is relatively unproblematic in its current state. Making that benefit accessible at level 1 and at the cost of just an ancestry feat, rather than two class feats, makes a massive difference,

I question the accuracy of this cost analysis.

The difference between level 1 and level 4 is not very large. And is during a time in the game where characters often do not have all of the components of their build completed. And is during a time in the game where enemies are not doing a lot of damage at once when they do hit.

Also, saying 'just an ancestry feat' is misleading. It also costs the heritage option. Which is a much more limited resource of build choice than class feats.

[Teridax]

Eoran wrote:

The difference between level 1 and level 4 is not very large. And is during a time in the game where characters often do not have all of the components of their build completed. And is during a time in the game where enemies are not doing a lot of damage at once when they do hit.

Also, saying 'just an ancestry feat' is misleading. It also costs the heritage option. Which is a much more limited resource of build choice than class feats.

Every single element of the above response is either misleading or outright false:

The difference between levels 1 and 4 is massive, and represents the difference between starting right out the gate with a +2 to your AC, and waiting for multiple sessions at poor AC until you finally get the thing that helps you not die. If that was the thing you really needed for your character to survive, it may be already too late.

This is Pathfinder 2e, not D&D. Characters are designed to be feature-complete right out the box, and while not literally all elements of their build are set (this may not even be the case at level 20), no character is intended to be dysfunctional until a later level.

Early levels are when enemies do the most damage compared to your HP. Level 1 in particular is the level range where even a pitiful level -1 Goblin Warrior, the lowest level of creature you can possibly encounter, can down your Wizard from full HP with a shortbow crit. If you're particularly unlucky and built your character with low Consitution, you may even die on the spot to massive damage.

Heritages, while technically more limited than class feats, are far less powerful and valuable, which is why it is generally not considered a major sacrifice to pick one heritage over another. Similarly, ancestry feats are expressly less powerful than class feats, which is why they provide smaller benefits that you can find on class feats at lower levels.

So no, a 1st-level ancestry feat should not be anywhere near as powerful as a 4th-level archetype feat, and the former benefit is much cheaper and more accessible than the latter.

[Eoran]

You seem to be very emotionally invested in your opinions.

I will leave you to them.

[SuperBidi]

Tsubutai wrote:

Aside from coming on line later, the big difference is that casters using armor proficiency have to invest in strength to avoid penalties since they'll need at least studded leather to hit the cap whereas the dragonblood feat lets them dump it and focus on other more useful stats.

There's no need to invest in Strength as the penalty is only an issue if you invest in Athletics or Dex-based skills. I have a few characters with Medium Armor and 10 Strength, one will certainly end up with heavy armor.

[shroudb]

Tsubutai wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Tsubutai wrote:

Second, all cloth casters become just as good as regular martials at avoiding hits.

Armor Proficiency gives the same bonus to all casters right at level 3 (or 1 for Humans). It's only a change for Monks.

Aside from coming on line later, the big difference is that casters using armor proficiency have to invest in strength to avoid penalties since they'll need at least studded leather to hit the cap whereas the dragonblood feat lets them dump it and focus on other more useful stats.

Meh, a chain shirt is just a -1 to stealth and you hit the cap at level 1 as a human with no str investment.

[Ryuhi]

Even before the remaster, the general feat to become proficient in light armor was great up to level 13, when you where only two levels away from potentially having dex 20 / +5 anyway.
This was accessible from level 1 for humans.

The remaster made it more convenient since it now scales and you can leave your dex at +3.

Casters likely will not care for the penalty to str and dex based skill actions, so since there is no speed penalty for light armor and the highest str requirement was only +1 anyway, this part never mattered much.

I think what we see here is just that the developers realized that the AC issue was already easily solved and thus did not need to be this penalizing.

Also, for the comparison with the medium armor ancestry feats:
Not only does medium armor come with benefits for strength builds which this does not offer, it also, I would say, make the effective comfort trait more valuable.

So, really, the only point where this really does make a significant difference is monks.
Dex monks get an effective +1, strength monks a +2.

I do not think either makes or breaks the class balance, but that is the one point where it actually differs from what characters could already do since the original core rulebook.

For me, I just wished there were some more ways to achieve this sort of natural armor, rather than seeing this as a problem needing to be fixed.