Got my Sub pdf and reading through and one issue that carries forward from before unless I am missing something is that there is no in class way to get more than 2 familiar abilities without taking an archetype like familiar master or Sorcerer. This kinda feels really bad given they added the homunculus specific familiar which is clearly designed for the alchemist who has no in class way to get to the required 6 abilities.holy s#@# 6?
Even with the
bonusmandatory Construct, Enhanced Familiar would only get you to 5.That's wild that they actually picked 6, and makes the decision to force all alch familiars into being constructs completely alien and insane.
The construct is a bonus it doesn't count against your familiar abilities.
Yup 6 required in exchange you get;
Granted Abilities construct, darkvision, manual dexterity, poison reservoir and than your choice of either item delivery or valet
And a Unique ability to have a 1500 ft. Telepathic link with both sides having full access to eachothers knowledge (not sure how usefull this is without an extra ability free to give it speech so that it can relay information for you not only to you.). There are some other things too just don't if I am allowed to share the full text before release.
Yeah, a relatable damage calculator guy on the discord Rama bomber with sticky and the splash feat, he’s in line with a basic bow martial making two attacks vs one VV and one QV. plus your other tools.
For what it's worth, my own spreadsheet gives a (2-action, Lv1, single-target) damage comparison of
Longbow (no volley) = Quick Bomber vial bombs > Shortbow > non-QB vial bomb > Crossbow > Hand Crossbow.
At Lv5, you have Bomber/Calculated Splash online, and the Deadly trait hasn't scaled, so bows slip a bit and you have
QB Bomber >> QB other > Longbow > non-QB Bomber = Shortbow > non-QB other.
At Lv8, we say that the bows get a property rune adding 1d6. Now the ranking is
QB Bomber = Longbow > Shortbow > QB other > rest as before.
At Lv12, I'm going to assume the bow users picked up a second damage property rune. Deadly also gives another d10 on crit. However, Expanded Splash is also now available. This gives us
Expanded Splash QB Bomber > Expanded Splash QB other = Longbow > Shortbow > Expanded Splash non-QB Bomber = QB other without Expanded Splash.
I'm going to stop there. For some limitations: I've let the Longbow ignore volley. I've not included any Str bonus from composite bow options. I've not factored in the value of the crit effects of the runes, since most of them are non-damaging. I've not seen the new alchemist goggles myself, so I've left them out. I've not factored in the value of hitting additional targets with splash. I've given everything a 60% chance to hit on the 0 MAP attack. I've not compared at levels where the vial bombs lag behind on potency runes, where they have an innate -1 to hit.
I think this indicates decently enough that vial bombs can keep up against a runed ranged weapon.
There's another point to make on the cost of runes: an Alchemist is not a martial. Their weapon strikes are weaker, and weapon strikes are not their main activity. Plus, their skill actions can be as strong (statlines depending), so the opportunity cost is cheaper when an Alchemist passes up a strike in favour of a skill action when compared to a martial. All in all, the Alchemist is not going to be making as many strikes as a martial. However, they still need to pay the same amount for the runes, which gives them a worse cost:benefit ratio.
I wouldn't necessarily say the upkeep of bombs is free, though. If you're using Expanded Splash you should also be seriously considering buying a few backfire mantles for the party so that you're not doing more for the enemy's DPR than your own.
Basic bow means no Feat + Feature investment in those Strikes, which would take them above bombs. Even worse is the resource issue that VV bombs have, and a bow martial does not.
You still need a ancestry feat investiment to use bows with Alchemists.
It's absurd that the QVs are even being argued as a Strike replacement.
I would literally rather have a 1d4 ancestry ranged unarmed attack than the QVs, as at least I can interact with & enhance that.
Like the rest of this Alchemist Remaster, it was clearly written without actual regard for non-Bombers. It *mostly* seems to be working for Bombers, but the rest of the Alchs are just just screwed.
I made a comparison between the damages of an alchemist throwing 3 strikes bombs (a d8 bomb + 2 instant vial bombs) and a thrown d8 weapon (like tridents) and the efficiency is just improves as long your splash damage improves (able to do damage in a failure with a MAP is pretty strong).
This is not comparable to barbarians/rogues put a extra damage + all their weapons runes but it's certainly way better than a non-poison alchemist using a weapon. Yet bombers can shine a lot with splash damage against creatures that have weakness that vials can cover because you can easily trigger every time that you thrown a bomb/vial (if you are playing as a bomber).
Without Bomber's passive, you will deal more splash damage to your own team than to foes, so it is hard to consider that in the QV's favor. Also, there's Str to damage for thrown and melee Strikes.
Here is where the Diretional Bombs shines. It's enough to avoid friend fire in 99% of cases because you can now choose the cone direction.
And if you're a Chiurgeon staring down the barrel of this update, looking at the absurdly bad prospect of spending VVs on bombs with such a tight budget, still have lagging Strike accuracy... I might even roll my Chi as a STR Alch because Trip & Grapple are still absurd and evergreen. Likely will depend on the party is fine on damage or needs me more in that role.
No it isn't. Because the chirurgeon suffers from a similar problem that clerics had. You have a lot of in combat healing but in practice as long the party progress in levels you heal in combat less and less and it's hard to justify the usage of Quick Alchemy for elixirs when you can pre-made a lot of elixirs with Advanced Alchemy.
So in practice I agree when comparing chirurgeons with bombers, bombers are better. But not because the chirurgeons are worse but because when their abilities begins to really shine (when they reach level 11) they are no more needed (unless your party members are completely reckless).
I mean, having 2 teammates getting slammed for 100+ damage from a rune giant in fists every round in addition to his AoE kinda blurs the argument of "high level needs less healing" imo.
In general this is the exception not the rule (unless your GM makes every encounter as extreme).
Anyway it's not usual that a creature that deals 3d12+17 (+3d6 if is under effect of Rune of Flames) dealing 100+ damage every round without a high critical rate (what's usually means that the party level is pretty low to a rune giant critic with a high frequency). In my gameplay experience most level 15+ encounters rarely requires in combat healing.
You have a lot of in combat healing but in practice as long the party progress in levels you heal in combat less and less and it's hard to justify the usage of Quick Alchemy for elixirs when you can pre-made a lot of elixirs with Advanced Alchemy.
The main asset of the Chirurgeon is condition removal and this one gets more and more important as you level.
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Yes but this isn't chirurgeon exclusive. Feats like Invigorating Elixir, Fortified Elixirs, Improved Invigorating Elixir and Supreme Invigorating Elixir aren't subclass locked.
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Paizo stop overvaluing/players stop undervaluing class flexibility challenge: impossible.
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Bomber meme attack at 18: Take all the debilitating bomb feats, throw a lightning flask with the clumsy 2 debilitation. If it hits, they're off guard and need a crit save to avoid the clumsy, for an effective -4 to their AC. Go ahead and riskanother VV on your MAP -5 strike (dazzled or sticky, I guess, on your choice of bomb), then do a QV for a third attack. Alchemist Goggles for bonus splash on a miss.
It is correct to say that the frequency / need for combat healing goes down as levels go up; it's not really disputable that HP pools scale faster than damage, leaving more room to take damage and still be out of 1-shot territory.
However, this puts MORE pressure on classes like the Chiurgeon to contribute offense, lol.
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YuriP, even if your conclusion is different, your comparative breakdown is honest and very useful. I still see that info and say, "Wow, that really makes me want to invest in a weapon."
The moment that I start needing Feats or burning VVs to make bombs at all keep up, I'd rather bite the bullet and keep the build flexibility of weapons, even when unmade bombs have in-the-moment flexibility.
To reiterate, I found the happenstance acquisition of a Fulminating Spear to be enlightening. Even before property damage runes, being able to hold and throw a d6 weapon that could be poisoned, bear a spellheart, got Str to dmg, etc, was by itself *very* competitive with the L3 bombs. When I dug into that a bit more, slapped on a Siphon, it really did make bomb-throwing look like a bad investment for Chiurgeons (/non-Bombers).
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Weapon strikes are absolutely a primary activity of alchemists. Bombers seek to throw as many as they can due to splash, and all PCs are incentivized to use 1 attack action per turn due to the MAP system. The "blind logic" reason for attacks being default 1A (even when reloading is needed!) while other damage actions like spells are 2A is explicitly to make it as easy as possible to perform Strikes every turn.
My Chiurgeons have felt like they contribute explicitly when I'm able to maintain that "1 attack per turn (min)" ethos, without sacrificing my supporting.
By limiting Alchemist to Quick Bomber, the game system is essentially dictating they accept the Feat tax to gain a crappy d6 ranged attack that is the worst of all worlds; they are thrown without Str to damage, splash hurts allies, and are incompatible with the entire method of weapon damage scaling, runes.
The alternative presented to Alchemists is to leave that power budget on the table and ignore bombs, and invest their PC into a weapon.
Previously, this was a real choice.
It could hurt, but one of my PCs literally does not have Quick Bomber. I have an item-relay familiar that sometimes hands one off, but I decided to see if that was viable, and it's honestly been going better than my others.
The other important nail that Paizo has driven into the Alchemist is that the new Quick Bomber + Double Brew combo literally does nothing to Bombers.
Because they can always make + throw a bomb for 1A, and there's no restriction on that, Bombers are the only ones who could hold a Shield and still use their specialty items no problem. In the Remaster, the need to use VVs means that the only in-Alchemist way to use elixirs for 1A is for me to use Quick Bomber + Double Brew.
It's absurdly bad for that to be the new norm. Because yes, between a spellcasting dedication and a throwable spear, I was already using bombs as a sometimes thing.
The ability to realize that bombs are a bad investment for a non-bomber, and to spend those Feats elsewhere is now complicated / held hostage to the 1A use of non-bombs behind Quick Bomber and keeping 2 hands open.
To downgrade / hurt and restrain 3/4 of the existing Alchemist types is a really, really bad outcome for a Remaster.
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I almost don't want to mention the Regurgitate Feat before errata is done, because yeah, the notion that it could at all compete with the QVs as a DPS tool is downright bat-s+%@-bad degrees of design outcome.
It should be a red flag to Paizo that something is wrong with the QVs (because there is, they need to get property rune effects via Handwraps or something), but knowing Paizo they will just nerf Regurgitate.
At L6, Regurgitate is doing 3d6 for 1+1 A, as a reflex save instead of AC attack. Once you hit L8 and it's doing 4d6, 2x the damage of the vials for 2x the Actions... it's literally an upgrade. And yes, there's some room to hem and haw about being an "upgrade" due to non-comprables if you want, but I'd rather take the save-or-sick spit any day. I'm already used to chugging things for 1A, and if I can't chug at-level healing elixirs anymore, it might as well be 3gp mutagens.
(this tactic is hyperbole, hopefully. I think a runed weapon will still be a better idea than repeated spitting.)
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You definitely want handwraps to go with your bestial mutagens. The mutagen won't always be up, you want striking runes to make your deadly dice go up if you get the enhancement feat that adds deadly d10 (as written, you only get the initial die, not the later increases because the mutagen gives you the effect of the runes but not the runes themselves; ask your GM), and you want property runes on your bestial strikes.
I've seen talos suggested as a good versatile heritage for the metal strikes feats and backup fist d6. There's also that new claws graft in Howl of the Wild that's a nice backup if your bestial mutagen is down or unavailabe because you went with a different one. At level 7 or 8 it's a rapier that's slashing instead of piercing and trades disarm for agile.
Yes, Bombers can still Double Brew into 2 open hands, but Bombers have literally no reason to do that anymore.
Old Alchemist Bombers wanted to comply with the cost of 2 open hands for Double Brew because of Additives and Perpetuals adding value above prep bombs on the belt. Now, Q-Vials are blocked from Additives, and Perpetuals do not exist.
Old Quick Bomber was a limited version of Quick Draw, you could only use it with prepared bombs, and still needed to spend 1A on Q-Alch to make bombs on the spot.
Now that Quick Bomber enables you to perform a 1A Quick Alchemy and a 1A Strike with the bomb you just made in the same single action, Bombers have no reason to keep both hands free. They can perform 3 Q-Alch bomb strikes per turn, which would cost 6A without the Feat.
Bombers now gain literally nothing from Double Brew, which once upon a time was made explicitly for them to 1A brew + Strike + Strike.
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Because that 2nd Strike can be swapped for any 1A Activation, any Alchemist that wants to use Quick Alchemy and then use the item either:
-- No Quick Bomber. They must spend 1A to perform Q-Alch, then 1A to use item.
-- Quick Bomber + Dbl Brw. They can both make and throw a QV for 1A. With Dbl Brw making 2 items in that first A, they can spend that 2nd A to use any alch item.
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The comparison is between a completely dead action or tossing a crappy free bomb for free. The imbalance between these is insane.
It's like your class having a signature cantrip, and a L1 feat lets them throw the Mini-Bolt for 1A instead of 2A.
And at L9, they get a feature where they can double-cast another cantrip, but only if they also throw out a Mini-Bolt for 1A first. Meaning, all non-blaster subclasses must use the Mini-Bolt in its worst form, or they can keep using a dead action to cast those other cantrips for 2A raw.
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I do not think I can overstate just how much this Bomber-first design has hurt the Alchemist as a whole and resulted in a complete Frankenstein patchwork monster.
The "must buff Bomber" edits have happened so many times that the Bomber's old privilege of Double Brew being favorable for them specifically is now literally useless to them. Even more damning is that all other Alchs need to eat Bomber's now-abandoned scraps via that back-assward 4 Feat+Feature Double Brew combo to throw an insta-bomb for literally 0 Action & 0 resource cost, or else they must perform a dead action to do their alchemy in combat.
I really do not think Paizo have spent any significant time so much as doing a thought exercise on the play experience of non-Bombers, as this level of reality disconnect is astounding.
Yes but this isn't chirurgeon exclusive. Feats like Invigorating Elixir, Fortified Elixirs, Improved Invigorating Elixir and Supreme Invigorating Elixir aren't subclass locked.
Not much is really exclusive to Research Fields. Soothing Vials alone is a good reason to go Chirurgeon.
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Toxicologist should maybe check out the Viperous Elixir (Howl of the Wild), which gives a bite attack with a scaling item bonus to attack/damage, and as a morph stacks with any mutagen you have up. The later ones that last for 2-3 successful bites are better than the first.
Howl also had a frogskin elixir that poisons anything that bites you or swallows you. If they swallow they get autoexposed with a save penalty every round. The damage isn't much but the debuffs are after stage 1.
I am super hopeful for Tox, they have a great chance to get out of this with a fun and viable gameplan.
But here's their actual Feature list freshly scanned out of a video, no damage-on-save in sight:
Toxicologist
You specialize in toxins and venoms of all types. Formulas Two common 1st-level alchemical poisons.
Field Benefit | You can apply an injury poison you’re holding to a weapon or piece of ammunition you're wielding as a single action, rather than as a 2-action activity. In addition, you flexibly mix acidic and poisonous alchemical compounds. Your infused poisons can affect creatures immune to poison. A creature takes acid damage instead of poison damage from your infused poisons if either the creature is immune to poison or that would be more detrimental to the creature (as determined by the GM). Typically, this benefit applies when the creature has an immunity, resistance, or weakness to one of the damage types.
Field Vials | Your versatile vials have the poison trait and deal poison damage instead of having the acid trait and dealing acid damage (though your field benefit still applies). You can apply the contents of a versatile vial to a weapon or piece of ammunition as an injury poison. Add the versatile vial’s initial damage to the first successful Strike with that weapon or ammunition. The substance becomes inert at the end of your current turn.
Field Discovery (5th) You have handled enough poisons to become inured to their effects. You gain poison resistance equal to half your level.
Advanced Vials (11th) When you damage a creature with a versatile vial you've used as an injury poison, that creature takes persistent poison damage equal to the vial's splash damage in addition to the initial damage.
Greater Field Discovery (13th) When a creature fails its initial saving throw against an infused injury poison you created, the wound sprays poison onto another creature adjacent to it. The attacker who caused the injury chooses which creature, if there's more than one, and can choose to forgo this effect. That creature is exposed to the poison. The second creature doesn't spread the poison further.
Tox's FVials are even worse then Chiurgeons, and they loose their L11 Feature slot to a tiny bonus that only happens if they use the horrid FVs.
Tox lost a lot in the remaster due to being unable to prep-poison with their huge daily item count. But they also gained a lot due to the immunity bypassing.
I predict that Tox will be able to find some Action-viable use of their VVs via inhaled poisons, and that category could really shine in their hands post-remaster.
As the least dependent on their Strike damage, Tox are the best suited to "calling the Dbl Brw bluff" and forgoing the QV throws entirely. Thanks to the Throwers Bandolier, shurikens are a genuinely great base-line / performance floor for thrown injury poisons that does not even require Quick Draw.
I'm hopeful the trades the Tox has been subjected to will end up favorable to them.
IMO the "f*%# it, Tox now bypasses poison immunity outright" design choice contributes toward my worries that the subclasses were a design afterthought.
Ignoring poison immunity was perhaps the single largest bone Paizo could have thrown to the Tox, but it also takes the minimum level of consideration to do.
The actual new mechanic, the Field Vials, are a joke and neigh-impossible for a Tox to use in the way Paizo seems to expect.
The fact they have an entire Feature dedicated just to enhancing the use of a QV specifically when slathered as an i.poison indicates they actually expect Tox to do that.
When in reality, the 3A activity of make + apply + strike may be one of the worst attack routines in the system, lol. Especially if the Tox is building pure Alchemist and not enhancing their use of weapons via Dedications.
You definitely want handwraps to go with your bestial mutagens. The mutagen won't always be up, you want striking runes to make your deadly dice go up if you get the enhancement feat that adds deadly d10 (as written, you only get the initial die, not the later increases because the mutagen gives you the effect of the runes but not the runes themselves; ask your GM), and you want property runes on your bestial strikes.
I've seen talos suggested as a good versatile heritage for the metal strikes feats and backup fist d6. There's also that new claws graft in Howl of the Wild that's a nice backup if your bestial mutagen is down or unavailabe because you went with a different one. At level 7 or 8 it's a rapier that's slashing instead of piercing and trades disarm for agile.
Duskwalker makes weapon/unarmed attack Strikes vs incorporeal creatures magical and if they already magical, ghost touch. Then you can get additional void damage vs living creature/vitality damage vs undead that scales with potency runes.
And on top of that, any bomb you throw will be magical. ;)
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I've been looking at the numbers and a bomber at level 10 with expanded splash and quick bomber + new bomber goggles the splash damage is 11 (int mod*2 + 1). If you just throw 3 bombs (3 Quickbombed Quick Vails) in a turn, regardless if you hit or not, you'd deal as much damage as a martial on a single target (on level moderate AC) on splash damage alone. The damage of the splash becomes lower than martial damage as you move levels in both directions (level 10 expanded splash becomes online and you increase in int mod) to as low as around 75% of martial damage but if you also lower the enemy AC it goes to around 50%.
I didn't dig deeper than that cause classes tend to do more than damage (CCs, debuffs, movement etc.) in a turn and they also don't (have to) fully commit all their actions to dealing damage. This also doesn't take into account the QV damage die on hits and crits, being able to exploit weaknesses, multiple enemies affected by splash. But even if its a 'white room' assessment, the guaranteed damage alone seems to be enough to push you into a good place damage-wise even if you don't commit your turn to full damage.
So it does work, and by work I mean, there is a line of feats you can take that makes alchemist more than good even if it does pigeon hole the class into using bombs. And there might be a way to make it work with other feats/subclasses, but the point is other classes don't have to rack their brains and bend over backwards to make the classes work.
I keep thinking about thaumaturge and how the class just gets it. Need to draw an item to make your class work? Sure! free action to swap/draw implements. Need a something to bump your damage to be on par with other martials? Sure! Implement empowerment and exploit vulnerability are class features that just scales with level. A thaumaturge PC with 0 feats is still a good PC, can't say the same with alchemist.
I'm "pigeonholing" myself by being as narrow as possible, talking about the issue of the 4 different Research Fields in comparison to each other and how they shake out in the Remaster's new context.
Meaning, I can only point to those specific R-Fld Features and genuinely exclusive Feats.
If a Bomber can take Feats and be 95% as effective as the Muta or Chi or Tox in those jobs, while also gaining Bomber benefits, that's a design fail. That outcome removes reason to select those R-Flds outside of roleplaying.
Getting into the causes and whys is a much more nuanced and tricky prospect than simply trying to demonstrate there is an imbalance/issue in the first place. But some is simple enough to explain.
One cause/why is that weak inherent Features and strong Class Feats can make those few exclusive Features irrelevant. And Alchemist certainly suffers from this one, which is why I've locked in on the abysmal FVial mechanics.
So many of the few RF-Exclusive Feats are locked into those F-Vial uses, like the Chi's mental save reroll.
The better the FV is to genuinely use, the better that FV-enhancing Feat, the better the Chi itself compares.
When that FVial has a 10min CD on its abysmal heal, that Chi-exclusive Feat measures against the other exclusive Feats + Features to tally up to a total in which the Chiurgeon does not compare favorably.
The counteract formula items that all alchs can make for near-0 cost thanks to VVs even got buffed in the Remaster. If all Alchemists can get both the counteract Additive Feats (that cannot work with Chi's FV) and those counteract item formulas, does spending a Feat to add a counteract to your 2d6 healing vial really help? How much does that give one a reason to pick Chiurgeon?
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Paizo seems genuinely unwilling to actually give the Chi a meaningful exclusive tool that combos with the Alchemist as a whole.
That Soothing Feat is the perfect example to demonstrate this. Right now, the Chi-exclusive Feat is locked to only enhancing the Chi's Field Vial. If that Feat instead gave its effect to every elixir, or even just to every healing elixir, that would be genuinely effect the Chi as a whole and be a real consideration for the Feat slot.
And while Bombers sure get to genuinely boost Bombs, and Tox now has they immunity bypass, Paizo gave Chi +Int tHP on their healing elixirs. Yeah, that's something, and it's something that we can compare to get a sense that it does not stack up favorably.
It's still worth mentioning the copied L13 Feature to max-roll Q-Alch elixirs of life, as that's genuinely a plus to picking Chiurgeon. But we need to keep the context of the Remaster in mind. Now Chi can't Perpetual them. It does not interact with the FVials, and that VV budget is looking real damn tight. And it's L13, meaning most Chi players will literally never see it.
It would have been incredibly simple to add a few words to enable the L13 Feature also max out the FVial heal, but nope. And such missed opportunities is why I keep coming back to the conclusion that Chi's Remaster was an afterthought.
Again, the Chi's FVial not only is a big nerf due to the change in context toward VVials as a mechanic, but the numbers and compatibility/interactions is a straight nerf compared to Perpetual items. That L13 feature was originally designed with the notion of Perpetual Elixirs of Life in mind, yet Paizo neglected to make the Feature compatible with the new replacement for the Perpetual mechanic.
This can only demonstrate that Paizo were either unaware of that (rather simple) interaction, or that they deliberately denied (nerfed) the Chiurgeon the same mechanic they used to have.
It's hilarious and impressive the degree of botched this remaster is for the Chiurgeon.
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Double Brew seems still very good on a bomber to me. First action double brew with quick bomber to both throw a VV bomb and craft a VV mutagen or other elixir, second action drink elixir/mutagen, third action throw a QV. Same action economy as a Combine Elixir plus QV with quick bomb, you're substituting one created/drunk elixir for one created/thrown bomb.
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Double Brew seems still very good on a bomber to me. First action double brew with quick bomber to both throw a VV bomb and craft a VV mutagen or other elixir, second action drink elixir/mutagen, third action throw a QV. Same action economy as a Combine Elixir plus QV with quick bomb, you're substituting one created/drunk elixir for one created/thrown bomb.
Very true.
It would have been better for me to say that Bomber has no bomb-throwing reason to use Double Brew, instead of speaking in complete absolutes as I did.
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I'm not sure the mutagenist research field is worth it even if you have a mutagen focus. Until level 13 all the advantages are defensive. The field vial ability seems fairly useless. The initial field ability looks good at first, but you since you may be refreshing your mutagens out of combat once per 10 minutes having temp hp only last a minute is rough. So pretty likely to cost you an action unless you have enough warning to pre buff. A collar of the shifting spider can help, but you can't use it with quick alchemy so you're spending your advanced alchemy on it.
Feels like you'd gain more utility from bomber or chrirugeon even those paths aren't your focus. But there's no shortage of good mutagen feats, at least.
Which is why I said that mutagenist is the sub least buffed.
I concur to that.
But the overall buff to his AC, plus the free Striking runes are a big boost regardless.
That said, since he's also the one that needs the least VVs in combat he's also one that can focus on Combine Elixir to absolutely buff himself in combat round 1 and go to town.
I'd probably still prefer Collar on him as well rather than mutagen via VV for combat in order to capitalize on his temp hp.
There's no Muta-only lock to the buff to the Bestial item, nor to Combine Elixirs.
You keep ignoring the core of what's trying to be explained to you. A buff to an item does not give reason to pick the Mutagenist's set of Features over another. This feeling is a problem resultant from the remaster's design:
Feels like you'd gain more utility from bomber or chrirugeon even those paths aren't your focus. But there's no shortage of good mutagen feats, at least.
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As I have mentioned before, my PCs would be significantly improved if I made them Bombers "under the hood" while I kept the Doctor / healer theming the exact same, and performed the same combat routines.
This is the issue that's trying to be conveyed.
Play-changing Features like Tox bypassing immunity, the Bomber's ally-safe splash, or even Chi's Craft-Medicine do not exist for the Mutagenist.
The few pros of the Muta must be greater than the pros offered by the other choices even in the context of a PC "doing Muta things."
Mutagenist seems good at 17th when the quickend VV comes on line and it can have two mutagens up and for one action supress the drawbacks of one and get half level physical resistance.
That, uh, seems a long time to wait.
There is a massive opportunity cost.
You won't be picking Bestial on a Tox because you can't apply poisons to your claws.
You won't be picking Bestial on a Bomber because you won't be attacking with your claws.The thing you gain from a Bomber, early on is comparable to what you gain from a Chirurgeon: +3 damage on bombs vs +4 Temp hp for every elixir.
You forget that on one sub you are incentivised to spend most of your VVs and actions for Elixirs, which will also maximise the effect of you giving basically free "health" to everyone and on the other sub you're using the same actions on blasting.
There's no reason for you to build a healer or a mutagenist "bomber" overall.
You compare a tiny tiny difference in overall class differences and magnify it to such ridiculous degree like this tiny speck makes one very bad and the other very good.
In reality, the difference doesn't matter because different subs will not only be picking different feats, but also spent their AA differently, and more importantly, their actions differently.
For each playstyle, the vast majority of the time you will be better keeping it "in sub".
This is exactly why I am so harsh about all non-Bombers having their Q-Alchemy economy held hostage behind throwing a bomb.
Dude, come on. I had that whole thing about using a throwing spear, and how now I'm stuck throwing a crappy d6 QV bomb as a Chiurgeon.
This is what I meant by saying the Bomber-first design causes problems.
Without a "Quick Item" or "Quicker Alchemy" Feat to offer alternatives to Quick Bomber, ALL Alchemists are pushed to throwing bombs. And the Double Brew combo makes this even worse.
That multiples the balance disparity between the RFs.
Why?
You're the only one pigeonholing yourself to throw Field Vials instead of a returning spear.
The damage a returning weapon will do for a non bomber is higher than the Field bomb.
There is no "bomber first" mentality except in your head.
If anything, again, the sub that got the most significant buffs is Tox, not Bomber.
As I have already explained more than once:
Before the remaster, I (Chiurgeons) could use prep elixirs all day for 1A (if combat hit 5 turns, that becomes a 1A item every 2nd turn thereafter).
That previous norm has been made impossible with the move to VVs.
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In the VV paradigm, if I use a Returning Spear, it will take 2A to use a VV item. Any use of Double Brew is outright incompatible.
If I leave the spear and use the new Quick Bomber + Double Brew combo, I literally throw a QV with 0 additional action cost in that 2A item use. It's not truly using a VV item/elixir for 1A, but it's as close as it gets.
Again, even the purest "Chi only" use of VVs still dramatically pushes this combo.
This new bomb-throwing + item 2A routine incentivizes yet more investment into improving those neigh-obligatory bomb throws, and heavily penalizes investments into other Strikes.
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Yes, I have the option to hold that spear and instead spend 2A every time I want to Q-Alch + use.
This "well you don't have to" doubling of my action cost shows that my already barely par Chiurgeon has been nerfed very, very hard.
And if I adapt to the new mechanical context of throwing a QV bomb before every VV item, I loose all pretense of picking Chiurgeon over Bomber being a good idea.
I'd argue that lvl 13, with being able to run both bestial and energy is the shifting point.
Bestial and Energy aren't the most optimal fit together. For whatever reason, Energy only gives damage to melee weapon Strikes. A Mutagenist on Bestial would still benefit from the Energy Resistance of course, and the explosion ability. Only issue with the explosion under the current rules is that the force of the explosion is time related, and all Quick Alchemy'd Elixirs are limited to a ten minute duration.
I'm strongly looking at Sanguine for my guy's second Mutagen. It eliminates the Reflex Save penalty at levels 13 & 17-19, cutting it to -1 for all other levels. Plus the bonus to Fortitude Saves is quite nice, and the Bleeding can be controlled with Blood Boosters.
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I'd argue that lvl 13, with being able to run both bestial and energy is the shifting point..
Unfortunely, and against the flavor text, energy mutagens only "add [X] damage on a hit with a melee weapon." Doesn't work with bestial.
Dude, come on. I had that whole thing about using a throwing spear, and how now I'm stuck throwing a crappy d6 QV bomb as a Chiurgeon.
You don't have to go this way. You can use some of your dailies on poisoning weapons and only rely on bombs when those aren't the best tool, you can use a bestial or warblood (if you can get access) mutagen (and take the vomit mutagen feat for some ranged damage/debuff at the right moment) since you may want to be adjacent in combat to feed elixirs to a buddy anyway. It's quite possible to ignore the QVs and not spend the feat on quick bomber, although I agree that spending the feat and mixing all of these strategies as appropriate is the best option for all specializations. Even bombers may want to invest in a thrower's bandolier and some poisoned javelins mid game for when the VVs run low.
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Toxicologist should maybe check out the Viperous Elixir (Howl of the Wild), which gives a bite attack with a scaling item bonus to attack/damage, and as a morph stacks with any mutagen you have up. The later ones that last for 2-3 successful bites are better than the first.
Howl also had a frogskin elixir that poisons anything that bites you or swallows you. If they swallow they get autoexposed with a save penalty every round. The damage isn't much but the debuffs are after stage 1.
Forgot about that one. Pretty good pick for bestial mutagen users too even if just for the bonus damage. Kinda makes up for the delayed weapon specialization.
Not sure if toxicologists ability to ignore poison immunity would apply to the poisons inflicted from the viperous elixir though
You don't have to go this way. You can use some of your dailies on poisoning weapons and only rely on bombs when those aren't the best tool, you can use a bestial or warblood (if you can get access) mutagen (and take the vomit mutagen feat for some ranged damage/debuff at the right moment) since you may want to be adjacent in combat to feed elixirs to a buddy anyway. It's quite possible to ignore the QVs and not spend the feat on quick bomber, although I agree that spending the feat and mixing all of these strategies as appropriate is the best option for all specializations. Even bombers may want to invest in a thrower's bandolier and some poisoned javelins mid game for when the VVs run low.
The cost of doing so is far, far worse than it was pre-remaster.
The closest thing to a 1A elixir use with VVs depends on that Quick Bomber + Double Brew combo.
In theory, a Tox can prep out their VVs into 10min poisons before combat.
Chiurgeons can't do that. In order to still "be a Chiurgeon" we have to use Quick Alchemy in combat to milk those recharging VVs else we *will* run dry of prep items.
I'm certainly going to daily prep an elixir or 2 for an emergency, but I'll need to exhaust the VVs first to have any day-long staying power.
I'm not sure the mutagenist research field is worth it even if you have a mutagen focus. Until level 13 all the advantages are defensive. The field vial ability seems fairly useless. The initial field ability looks good at first, but you since you may be refreshing your mutagens out of combat once per 10 minutes having temp hp only last a minute is rough. So pretty likely to cost you an action unless you have enough warning to pre buff. A collar of the shifting spider can help, but you can't use it with quick alchemy so you're spending your advanced alchemy on it.
Feels like you'd gain more utility from bomber or chrirugeon even those paths aren't your focus. But there's no shortage of good mutagen feats, at least.
Which is why I said that mutagenist is the sub least buffed.
I concur to that.
But the overall buff to his AC, plus the free Striking runes are a big boost regardless.
That said, since he's also the one that needs the least VVs in combat he's also one that can focus on Combine Elixir to absolutely buff himself in combat round 1 and go to town.
I'd probably still prefer Collar on him as well rather than mutagen via VV for combat in order to capitalize on his temp hp.
I agree with you that mutagen builds are sitting pretty, just not using their designated research field. The spider collar helps, once you can afford it, but it burns a non-renewing advanced item. Seems better once you hit level 11 and your advanced mutagens can last a full hour.
I'm also curious how using the mutagen healing feat + field temp ho would compare to just using two actions on guzzling an elixir of life.
I have a tenth level Mutagenist in PFS. I'm currently working out how I'm going to switch him to the Remaster.
It's likely that I'm going to keep using AA Bestial with his Collar of the Shifting Spider. I'm currently trying to figure out if I can squeeze Combine Elixirs into the build somewhere. Maybe the 10th level feat instead of Grievous Blow (although I do like Grievous Blow for dealing with damage resistant foes.)
I figure Bestial on Initiative followed up by a Combine Elixirs Numbing and Soothing tonic from Versatile Vials will be a pretty good way to go on Round One. It will definitely beat my current practice of having Jeeves (my familiar) hand me two potions to down.
I really like the fact that removed the Resource Surcharge from Combine Elixirs. It's worth a lot more now.
I'm also curious how using the mutagen healing feat + field temp ho would compare to just using two actions on guzzling an elixir of life.
Revivifying Mutagen tops out at 8d6 of healing with Major Mutagens at L17 (9d6 if you use Fury Cocktails at L18.) With the same Versatile Vial you can make True Elixir of Life for 10d6+27. No brainer, really.
Revivifying still has nice utility though. Being able to end any Mutagen at will has always been a must-take for my Alchemists.
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Bomber is definitely the strongest again. I really appreciate its abilities. You can more easily designate your resources to a variety of uses without fear of running out of bombs. The basic bombs from versatile vials aren't great but you can throw them all day from level one. And with the buffs to quick bomber, it's a really attractive and viable niche without needing to think too much about your resources or formulas. Love it
Revivifying still has nice utility though. Being able to end any Mutagen at will has always been a must-take for my Alchemists.
Well, the rough part is that the new Regurgitate Feat lacks the antiquated design of keying off item level, ends the mutagen, and lobs a save or sick acid splot toward your foe of choice.
Revivifying in theory has out-of-combat healing use... but by keying off the same 10-min VVs as any healing elixir, it's kinda a dead Feat now.
I suppose it could help with sustain for multi-fight maps without water breaks, but ending fights sooner via Regurgitate would invariably prevent that damage in the first place.
Combine Elixirs is genuinely great now. It's main "cost" aside from the Feat is the new 1 Additive per turn limit. It's a great balancing lever/idea to have the opportunity cost of each Additive be the main consideration, and allows for potent Additives to exist without breaking the balance.
I'm going to stick with Revivifying Mutagen. The main value is being able to end whatever Mutagen I'm using out of combat immediately when combat kicks in.
Regurgitating is kind of neat, but not sure about the Action cost to reapply a Mutagen after you use it. Plus, there are other options for a fourth level Feat. I think Efficient Alchemy is going to be tempting for any Alchemist with a L4 slot to spare.
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Bomber is definitely the strongest again. I really appreciate its abilities. You can more easily designate your resources to a variety of uses without fear of running out of bombs. The basic bombs from versatile vials aren't great but you can throw them all day from level one. And with the buffs to quick bomber, it's a really attractive and viable niche without needing to think too much about your resources or formulas. Love it
As with spellcasters, I can't think of the alchemist as a class dedicated to a single research field.
So for me, a Mutagenist who only uses mutagens, a Bomber who only uses bombs, a Chirurgeon who only uses elixirs and even a Toxicologist who only uses poisons makes as much sense as an elemental sorcerer who refuses to learn heal, haste and slow because he is an "expert" in elemental damage.
That's why for me, especially in this remaster version, where there is no longer a difference between creating an item infused with your Research Field or not (you now only create a single item per resource, regardless of whether it is your specialty or not), the What makes a difference is the effect you get when using it. I can't see any reason why a bomber wouldn't use elixirs and mutagens in parallel to his specialization, or a chirurgeon wouldn't throw bombs, or use mutagens to make a fuss, or a toxicologist or mutagenist wouldn't do the same using all the alchemical items he has. your disposition in your favor just because it's not your specialty, this is underutilizing the capabilities of your class and will certainly lead to under-efficiency and likely difficulties and dissatisfaction during gameplay.
That's why it's difficult for me to judge whether a specific Research Field is good or bad, at least not until I play it in practice and push the alchemist's versatility and usefulness to the limit.
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Versatile vials call for reexamining all the published alchemical consumables. So many niche items are now worth adding to your formula book because their relative cost to your item pool shrunk. Especially out of combat stuff.
Advanced alchemy feels best suited to longer duration effects like eagle eye elixirs. I was looking for alchemical foods worth using but wasn't spotting anything great.
I'm really liking the idea of using Serene Mutagen as a constant buff in exploration mode. It's a scaling initiative bonus, search bonus, and will save bonus. Will saves are almost always mental so you usually get an effective +3 adjustment. Will saves are common openers for encounters with things like Frightening Presence, haunts, and lots of nasty spells. And at level 11 you get the success to crit success boost. You can then Regurgitate to end it and guzzle whatever mutagen you walked around holding. (Decent case for Mutagenist here.) Or don't. Alchemist has lots of non-spell, non attack options, like buffs or inhaled poisons. A chirugeon might appreciate the continuous defense boost more.
There's no way to guarantee a new mutagen successfully counteracts an old one, right? At least without having a level disparity.
Does the extra versatile vial granted by the familiar ability replenish for an alchemist, effectively giving them 3+Int vials? Might be too good to be true, but I don't see anything preventing it except maybe the max number clause on versatile vials.
At this point, Kholos make the best mutaginist and hobgoblins the best bombers, right? Only competition I see are goblins with burn it, but you can Adopted Ancestry that and it becomes superfluous past level 10 anyway. And runt sage lets you not even waste a general feat on it. Smoke bombs seem like a solid choice for a hob, especially if you delay to go just before the enemy.
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Bomber is definitely the strongest again. I really appreciate its abilities. You can more easily designate your resources to a variety of uses without fear of running out of bombs. The basic bombs from versatile vials aren't great but you can throw them all day from level one. And with the buffs to quick bomber, it's a really attractive and viable niche without needing to think too much about your resources or formulas. Love itAs with spellcasters, I can't think of the alchemist as a class dedicated to a single research field.
So for me, a Mutagenist who only uses mutagens, a Bomber who only uses bombs, a Chirurgeon who only uses elixirs and even a Toxicologist who only uses poisons makes as much sense as an elemental sorcerer who refuses to learn heal, haste and slow because he is an "expert" in elemental damage.
That's why for me, especially in this remaster version, where there is no longer a difference between creating an item infused with your Research Field or not (you now only create a single item per resource, regardless of whether it is your specialty or not), the What makes a difference is the effect you get when using it. I can't see any reason why a bomber wouldn't use elixirs and mutagens in parallel to his specialization, or a chirurgeon wouldn't throw bombs, or use mutagens to make a fuss, or a toxicologist or mutagenist wouldn't do the same using all the alchemical items he has. your disposition in your favor just because it's not your specialty, this is underutilizing the capabilities of your class and will certainly lead to under-efficiency and likely difficulties and dissatisfaction during gameplay.
That's why it's difficult for me to judge whether a specific Research Field is good or bad, at least not until I play it in practice and push the alchemist's versatility and usefulness to the limit.
Yeah, that's basically my sentiment when I said bombers can use their resources more flexibly since they can't run out of versatile bombs so there's less pressure to commit so much to regular bombs.
But yes, new alchemists are gonna be looking for the best items to use in exploration mode which will have more niche items get used by every alchemist.