Got my Sub pdf and reading through and one issue that carries forward from before unless I am missing something is that there is no in class way to get more than 2 familiar abilities without taking an archetype like familiar master or Sorcerer. This kinda feels really bad given they added the homunculus specific familiar which is clearly designed for the alchemist who has no in class way to get to the required 6 abilities.holy shit 6?
Even with the
bonusmandatory Construct, Enhanced Familiar would only get you to 5.That's wild that they actually picked 6, and makes the decision to force all alch familiars into being constructs completely alien and insane.
The construct is a bonus it doesn't count against your familiar abilities.
Yup 6 required in exchange you get;
Granted Abilities construct, darkvision, manual dexterity, poison reservoir and than your choice of either item delivery or valet
And a Unique ability to have a 1500 ft. Telepathic link with both sides having full access to eachothers knowledge (not sure how usefull this is without an extra ability free to give it speech so that it can relay information for you not only to you.). There are some other things too just don't if I am allowed to share the full text before release.
Yeah, a relatable damage calculator guy on the discord Rama bomber with sticky and the splash feat, he’s in line with a basic bow martial making two attacks vs one VV and one QV. plus your other tools.
For what it's worth, my own spreadsheet gives a (2-action, Lv1, single-target) damage comparison of
Longbow (no volley) = Quick Bomber vial bombs > Shortbow > non-QB vial bomb > Crossbow > Hand Crossbow.
At Lv5, you have Bomber/Calculated Splash online, and the Deadly trait hasn't scaled, so bows slip a bit and you have
QB Bomber >> QB other > Longbow > non-QB Bomber = Shortbow > non-QB other.
At Lv8, we say that the bows get a property rune adding 1d6. Now the ranking is
QB Bomber = Longbow > Shortbow > QB other > rest as before.
At Lv12, I'm going to assume the bow users picked up a second damage property rune. Deadly also gives another d10 on crit. However, Expanded Splash is also now available. This gives us
Expanded Splash QB Bomber > Expanded Splash QB other = Longbow > Shortbow > Expanded Splash non-QB Bomber = QB other without Expanded Splash.
I'm going to stop there. For some limitations: I've let the Longbow ignore volley. I've not included any Str bonus from composite bow options. I've not factored in the value of the crit effects of the runes, since most of them are non-damaging. I've not seen the new alchemist goggles myself, so I've left them out. I've not factored in the value of hitting additional targets with splash. I've given everything a 60% chance to hit on the 0 MAP attack. I've not compared at levels where the vial bombs lag behind on potency runes, where they have an innate -1 to hit.
I think this indicates decently enough that vial bombs can keep up against a runed ranged weapon.
There's another point to make on the cost of runes: an Alchemist is not a martial. Their weapon strikes are weaker, and weapon strikes are not their main activity. Plus, their skill actions can be as strong (statlines depending), so the opportunity cost is cheaper when an Alchemist passes up a strike in favour of a skill action when compared to a martial. All in all, the Alchemist is not going to be making as many strikes as a martial. However, they still need to pay the same amount for the runes, which gives them a worse cost:benefit ratio.
I wouldn't necessarily say the upkeep of bombs is free, though. If you're using Expanded Splash you should also be seriously considering buying a few backfire mantles for the party so that you're not doing more for the enemy's DPR than your own.
Basic bow means no Feat + Feature investment in those Strikes, which would take them above bombs. Even worse is the resource issue that VV bombs have, and a bow martial does not.
You still need a ancestry feat investiment to use bows with Alchemists.
It's absurd that the QVs are even being argued as a Strike replacement.
I would literally rather have a 1d4 ancestry ranged unarmed attack than the QVs, as at least I can interact with & enhance that.
Like the rest of this Alchemist Remaster, it was clearly written without actual regard for non-Bombers. It *mostly* seems to be working for Bombers, but the rest of the Alchs are just just screwed.
I made a comparison between the damages of an alchemist throwing 3 strikes bombs (a d8 bomb + 2 instant vial bombs) and a thrown d8 weapon (like tridents) and the efficiency is just improves as long your splash damage improves (able to do damage in a failure with a MAP is pretty strong).
This is not comparable to barbarians/rogues put a extra damage + all their weapons runes but it's certainly way better than a non-poison alchemist using a weapon. Yet bombers can shine a lot with splash damage against creatures that have weakness that vials can cover because you can easily trigger every time that you thrown a bomb/vial (if you are playing as a bomber).
Without Bomber's passive, you will deal more splash damage to your own team than to foes, so it is hard to consider that in the QV's favor. Also, there's Str to damage for thrown and melee Strikes.
Here is where the Diretional Bombs shines. It's enough to avoid friend fire in 99% of cases because you can now choose the cone direction.
And if you're a Chiurgeon staring down the barrel of this update, looking at the absurdly bad prospect of spending VVs on bombs with such a tight budget, still have lagging Strike accuracy... I might even roll my Chi as a STR Alch because Trip & Grapple are still absurd and evergreen. Likely will depend on the party is fine on damage or needs me more in that role.
No it isn't. Because the chirurgeon suffers from a similar problem that clerics had. You have a lot of in combat healing but in practice as long the party progress in levels you heal in combat less and less and it's hard to justify the usage of Quick Alchemy for elixirs when you can pre-made a lot of elixirs with Advanced Alchemy.
So in practice I agree when comparing chirurgeons with bombers, bombers are better. But not because the chirurgeons are worse but because when their abilities begins to really shine (when they reach level 11) they are no more needed (unless your party members are completely reckless).
I mean, having 2 teammates getting slammed for 100+ damage from a rune giant in fists every round in addition to his AoE kinda blurs the argument of "high level needs less healing" imo.
In general this is the exception not the rule (unless your GM makes every encounter as extreme).
Anyway it's not usual that a creature that deals 3d12+17 (+3d6 if is under effect of Rune of Flames) dealing 100+ damage every round without a high critical rate (what's usually means that the party level is pretty low to a rune giant critic with a high frequency). In my gameplay experience most level 15+ encounters rarely requires in combat healing.
You have a lot of in combat healing but in practice as long the party progress in levels you heal in combat less and less and it's hard to justify the usage of Quick Alchemy for elixirs when you can pre-made a lot of elixirs with Advanced Alchemy.
The main asset of the Chirurgeon is condition removal and this one gets more and more important as you level.
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Yes but this isn't chirurgeon exclusive. Feats like Invigorating Elixir, Fortified Elixirs, Improved Invigorating Elixir and Supreme Invigorating Elixir aren't subclass locked.
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Paizo stop overvaluing/players stop undervaluing class flexibility challenge: impossible.
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Bomber meme attack at 18: Take all the debilitating bomb feats, throw a lightning flask with the clumsy 2 debilitation. If it hits, they're off guard and need a crit save to avoid the clumsy, for an effective -4 to their AC. Go ahead and riskanother VV on your MAP -5 strike (dazzled or sticky, I guess, on your choice of bomb), then do a QV for a third attack. Alchemist Goggles for bonus splash on a miss.
It is correct to say that the frequency / need for combat healing goes down as levels go up; it's not really disputable that HP pools scale faster than damage, leaving more room to take damage and still be out of 1-shot territory.
However, this puts MORE pressure on classes like the Chiurgeon to contribute offense, lol.
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YuriP, even if your conclusion is different, your comparative breakdown is honest and very useful. I still see that info and say, "Wow, that really makes me want to invest in a weapon."
The moment that I start needing Feats or burning VVs to make bombs at all keep up, I'd rather bite the bullet and keep the build flexibility of weapons, even when unmade bombs have in-the-moment flexibility.
To reiterate, I found the happenstance acquisition of a Fulminating Spear to be enlightening. Even before property damage runes, being able to hold and throw a d6 weapon that could be poisoned, bear a spellheart, got Str to dmg, etc, was by itself *very* competitive with the L3 bombs. When I dug into that a bit more, slapped on a Siphon, it really did make bomb-throwing look like a bad investment for Chiurgeons (/non-Bombers).
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Weapon strikes are absolutely a primary activity of alchemists. Bombers seek to throw as many as they can due to splash, and all PCs are incentivized to use 1 attack action per turn due to the MAP system. The "blind logic" reason for attacks being default 1A (even when reloading is needed!) while other damage actions like spells are 2A is explicitly to make it as easy as possible to perform Strikes every turn.
My Chiurgeons have felt like they contribute explicitly when I'm able to maintain that "1 attack per turn (min)" ethos, without sacrificing my supporting.
By limiting Alchemist to Quick Bomber, the game system is essentially dictating they accept the Feat tax to gain a crappy d6 ranged attack that is the worst of all worlds; they are thrown without Str to damage, splash hurts allies, and are incompatible with the entire method of weapon damage scaling, runes.
The alternative presented to Alchemists is to leave that power budget on the table and ignore bombs, and invest their PC into a weapon.
Previously, this was a real choice.
It could hurt, but one of my PCs literally does not have Quick Bomber. I have an item-relay familiar that sometimes hands one off, but I decided to see if that was viable, and it's honestly been going better than my others.
The other important nail that Paizo has driven into the Alchemist is that the new Quick Bomber + Double Brew combo literally does nothing to Bombers.
Because they can always make + throw a bomb for 1A, and there's no restriction on that, Bombers are the only ones who could hold a Shield and still use their specialty items no problem. In the Remaster, the need to use VVs means that the only in-Alchemist way to use elixirs for 1A is for me to use Quick Bomber + Double Brew.
It's absurdly bad for that to be the new norm. Because yes, between a spellcasting dedication and a throwable spear, I was already using bombs as a sometimes thing.
The ability to realize that bombs are a bad investment for a non-bomber, and to spend those Feats elsewhere is now complicated / held hostage to the 1A use of non-bombs behind Quick Bomber and keeping 2 hands open.
To downgrade / hurt and restrain 3/4 of the existing Alchemist types is a really, really bad outcome for a Remaster.
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I almost don't want to mention the Regurgitate Feat before errata is done, because yeah, the notion that it could at all compete with the QVs as a DPS tool is downright bat-shit-bad degrees of design outcome.
It should be a red flag to Paizo that something is wrong with the QVs (because there is, they need to get property rune effects via Handwraps or something), but knowing Paizo they will just nerf Regurgitate.
At L6, Regurgitate is doing 3d6 for 1+1 A, as a reflex save instead of AC attack. Once you hit L8 and it's doing 4d6, 2x the damage of the vials for 2x the Actions... it's literally an upgrade. And yes, there's some room to hem and haw about being an "upgrade" due to non-comprables if you want, but I'd rather take the save-or-sick spit any day. I'm already used to chugging things for 1A, and if I can't chug at-level healing elixirs anymore, it might as well be 3gp mutagens.
(this tactic is hyperbole, hopefully. I think a runed weapon will still be a better idea than repeated spitting.)
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You definitely want handwraps to go with your bestial mutagens. The mutagen won't always be up, you want striking runes to make your deadly dice go up if you get the enhancement feat that adds deadly d10 (as written, you only get the initial die, not the later increases because the mutagen gives you the effect of the runes but not the runes themselves; ask your GM), and you want property runes on your bestial strikes.
I've seen talos suggested as a good versatile heritage for the metal strikes feats and backup fist d6. There's also that new claws graft in Howl of the Wild that's a nice backup if your bestial mutagen is down or unavailabe because you went with a different one. At level 7 or 8 it's a rapier that's slashing instead of piercing and trades disarm for agile.
Yes, Bombers can still Double Brew into 2 open hands, but Bombers literally no longer have any reason to do that.
Old Alchemist Bombers wanted to comply with the cost of 2 open hands for Double Brew because of Additives and Perpetuals adding value above prep bombs on the belt. Now, Q-Vials are blocked from Additives, and Perpetuals do not exist.
Old Quick Bomber was a limited version of Quick Draw, you could only use it with prepared bombs, and still needed to spend 1A on Q-Alch to make bombs on the spot.
Now that Quick Bomber enables you to perform a 1A Quick Alchemy and a 1A Strike with the bomb you just made in the same single action, Bombers have no reason to keep both hands free. They can perform 3 Q-Alch bomb strikes per turn, which would cost 6A without the Feat.
Bombers now gain literally nothing from Double Brew, which once upon a time was made explicitly for them to 1A brew + Strike + Strike.
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Because that 2nd Strike can be swapped for any 1A Activation, any Alchemist that wants to use Quick Alchemy and then use the item either:
-- No Quick Bomber. They must spend 1A to perform Q-Alch, then 1A to use item.
-- Quick Bomber + Dbl Brw. They can both make and throw a QV for 1A. With Dbl Brw making 2 items in that first A, they can spend that 2nd A to use any alch item.
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The comparison is between a completely dead action or tossing a crappy free bomb for free. The imbalance between these is insane.
It's like your class having a signature cantrip, and a L1 feat lets them throw the Mini-Bolt for 1A instead of 2A.
And at L9, they get a feature where they can double-cast another cantrip, but only if they also throw out a Mini-Bolt for 1A first. Meaning, all non-blaster subclasses must use the Mini-Bolt in its worst form, or they can keep using a dead action to cast those other cantrips for 2A raw.
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I do not think I can overstate just how much this Bomber-first design has hurt the Alchemist as a whole and resulted in a complete Frankenstein patchwork monster.
The "must buff Bomber" edits have happened so many times that the Bomber's old privilege of Double Brew being favorable for them specifically is now literally useless to them. Even more damning is that all other Alchs need to eat Bomber's now-abandoned scraps via that back-assward 4 Feat+Feature Double Brew combo to throw an insta-bomb for literally 0 Action & 0 resource cost, or else they must perform a dead action to do their alchemy in combat.
I really do not think Paizo have spent any significant time so much as doing a thought exercise on the play experience of non-Bombers, as this level of reality disconnect is astounding.
Yes but this isn't chirurgeon exclusive. Feats like Invigorating Elixir, Fortified Elixirs, Improved Invigorating Elixir and Supreme Invigorating Elixir aren't subclass locked.
Not much is really exclusive to Research Fields. Soothing Vials alone is a good reason to go Chirurgeon.
Toxicologist should maybe check out the Viperous Elixir (Howl of the Wild), which gives a bite attack with a scaling item bonus to attack/damage, and as a morph stacks with any mutagen you have up. The later ones that last for 2-3 successful bites are better than the first.
Howl also had a frogskin elixir that poisons anything that bites you or swallows you. If they swallow they get autoexposed with a save penalty every round. The damage isn't much but the debuffs are after stage 1.