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The prepared felling of druids and clerics are different from wizards and witches because druids and clerics already know all common spells of their lists.
This difference not only allows these casters to change to a spell that meet their needs without needing to running around seeking for new spells and scrolls to improve your spellbook but also give a psychological reward too. You don't have the same flexibility of a spontaneous caster that can choose the spell in time but you have access to almost your full tradition list instead to make changes as you need next day.
I think the main difference between clerics and druids and wizards and is the cleric has divine font and slightly better feats and class features ad the druid has way better class features. It is fricking cool to have an animal companion or shoot lightning or turn into all different kinds of forms that can do all types of things for no resource cost other than a feat and a focus point all day. The utility of Untamed Form is incredible. It gets talked about like it's some weak focus spells, when it probably the most powerful and versatile focus ability in the game with tremendous feat support.
That's why I chuckle when some claim spell slots are better than focus spells. I can turn into a dragon or elemental or plant all day long that can all types of things and do melee combat. Somehow that's a weak focus spell? I've pounded through walls of force with earth elemental form. Dragon form is incredible mobility. The reach on these creatures is amazing as well. It basically cost you nothing.
Then we could talk about cleric divine font and the power of the 2 action heal. As well as the quality of some of the focus spells.
Then bard cantrips and focus spells.
Wizard has absolutely nothing like this. They don't even really have more spell slots than the sorcerer because once they use a slot it's done. In battle, that is nowhere near as good as the sorcerer casting matrix.
The wizard shines during downtime if they have spell substitution and 10 minutes and a situation they can solve with a particular spell. That's their narrow moment of shining. You can literally take this shining moment by taking the wizard archetype feat on a arcane sorcerer and have more slots in total and change out with a day of downtime.
You think taking the monks flurry of blows is bad? How about taking the wizards ability to change spells on a daily basis on top of all your spontaneous casting with your huge repertoire.
OK lets put this into context.
Someone put up a build/spell selection for a level 5 sorcerer
someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.
Then we can post some encounters and analyze in context how well they each would do.
My thought is at least three different people post encounters for the day without really considering what the others posted to get some variety the two casters will end up against.
The rest of the party is could be a 2 handed fighter, a Cleric with a healing font, and a thief rogue.
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The prepared felling of druids and clerics are different from wizards and witches because druids and clerics already know all common spells of their lists.
Yeah this is a big one. The wizard (and witch) kind of get the short end of the stick on prepared casting because they also have an extra system for learning spells.
Out of the box the wizard only has a handful more spells than the sorcerer does, which creates another way in which they're reliant on the GM to provide them room to grow.
Honestly given how GM and campaign dependent they are, maybe Wizards should be uncommon. Makes more sense then the rarity tags on inventors, gunslingers, or exemplars, who are all much better thematically and mechanically at fitting in any campaign.
You can easily do simulations like this using the game Dawnsbury days, which uses the pre-remaster pf2e rules. What you find there is that on higher difficulties (where enemies often have the elite template), there is little reason to cast anything else than magic missile for blasting. Most slotted spells will miss / enemies will succeed, and AoE against mooks is inherently less valuable than focused damage against the higher level enemies. If there are no high-defense high-level targets to focus down, you are better off just casting buffs.OK lets put this into context.
Someone put up a build/spell selection for a level 5 sorcerer
someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.Then we can post some encounters and analyze in context how well they each would do.
My thought is at least three different people post encounters for the day without really considering what the others posted to get some variety the two casters will end up against.
The rest of the party is could be a 2 handed fighter, a Cleric with a healing font, and a thief rogue.
Actually I do have a battle test world set up in foundry for when I was testing the guardian.
I could test it there.I was just thinking people here have builds in mind specific to a good sorcerer and a well prepared wizard, also that way im not coming up with the encounter that these builds will go up against.
You can easily do simulations like this using the game Dawnsbury days, which uses the pre-remaster pf2e rules. What you find there is that on higher difficulties (where enemies often have the elite template), there is little reason to cast anything else than magic missile for blasting. Most slotted spells will miss / enemies will succeed, and AoE against mooks is inherently less valuable than focused damage against the higher level enemies. If there are no high-defense high-level targets to focus down, you are better off just casting buffs.OK lets put this into context.
Someone put up a build/spell selection for a level 5 sorcerer
someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.Then we can post some encounters and analyze in context how well they each would do.
My thought is at least three different people post encounters for the day without really considering what the others posted to get some variety the two casters will end up against.
The rest of the party is could be a 2 handed fighter, a Cleric with a healing font, and a thief rogue.
Actually I do have a battle test world set up in foundry for when I was testing the guardian.
I could test it there.
I was just thinking people here have builds in mind specific to a good sorcerer and a well prepared wizard, also that way im not coming up with the encounter that these builds will go up against.
It seems like spell blending or staff nexus are the best option for thesis, by popular consensus. Part of me is tempted to say to do an obvious blaster to blaster comparison (battle magic wizard vs draconic sorc would be quite appropriate for that, I think?), since that's come up a lot in the thread.
OK lets put this into context.
Someone put up a build/spell selection for a level 5 sorcerer
someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.Then we can post some encounters and analyze in context how well they each would do.
My thought is at least three different people post encounters for the day without really considering what the others posted to get some variety the two casters will end up against.
The rest of the party is could be a 2 handed fighter, a Cleric with a healing font, and a thief rogue.
I do not care about level 5. 6 hit point casters at level 5 are weak. The druid, cleric, and bard all feel way better up to level 5.
Level 10 is better. But we could also do level 16 and see what each can do when the builds start to really pick up and both are master casters.
It seems like spell blending or staff nexus are the best option for thesis, by popular consensus. Part of me is tempted to say to do an obvious blaster to blaster comparison (battle magic wizard vs draconic sorc would be quite appropriate for that, I think?), since that's come up a lot in the thread.I have an illusions focused build I really want to do with Staff Nexus to just cast Illusory Object like it's a cantrip.
Not the best option for damage though Staff Nexus. Not until you get the really expensive break a staff for like 78d10 AoE force damage option.
Not sure which staff does d10, but that is an interesting use of staff nexus.
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someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.
What should have been my Wizard if he ever made it to level 5 (equipment is very simple as you didn't give any rule to what you should have).
Lightning Bolt is your bread and butter spell, cast it anytime you get 2 enemies lined up. Fireball for groups (at least 3 enemies), Force Barrage for bosses. You have a few Scrolls, don't hesitate to grab a couple of them when you expect an encounter the same way martials draw their weapons. Use them liberally.
You're supposed to cast 2 spells from your 2 top ranks per fight on average. Start preferably with the level 3 one.
I'm not sure the comparison with Vodalian's will bring anything as both builds have nothing in common.
If you are worried about survivability, cast mirror image to become an actual tank, turning 3 incoming successful attacks into misses, or crits to hits.MI doesn't work like this. It's "for 3 next incoming attacks have a chance to turn hits into misses, or crits to hits." Plus pay 2 actions and a slot for the priviledge.
TBF, even if you can't really cast it before combat anymore like 1E, it's still one of the best defenses in the game. Genuinely lifesaving. Forcing misses is also a form of action denial, so there's that.
It also has an exceptionally nice spell catalyst that adds the effect that your images inflict Frightened 1 when they are destroyed. Absolutely worth the additional action.
someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.What should have been my Wizard if he ever made it to level 5 (equipment is very simple as you didn't give any rule to what you should have).
Lightning Bolt is your bread and butter spell, cast it anytime you get 2 enemies lined up. Fireball for groups (at least 3 enemies), Force Barrage for bosses. You have a few Scrolls, don't hesitate to grab a couple of them when you expect an encounter the same way martials draw their weapons. Use them liberally.
You're supposed to cast 2 spells from your 2 top ranks per fight on average. Start preferably with the level 3 one.
I'm not sure the comparison with Vodalian's will bring anything as both builds have nothing in common.
Thanks the build was instantly transferred thanks to pathmuncher
Try this for sorceror:
https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=813500
Skeleton sorceror with champion archetype:
- heavy armor
- bulwark
- circumstance intimidate and coerce bonus from 'intimidating prowess', and status bonus from bullhorn cantrip (coerce only)
- high athletics for trip from 15-feet away using skeleton's 'well-armed' and a whip
- champion's reaction for mitigating allied damage and allowing the fighter a free step away from the enemy (fighter should have a reach weapon so they get a free AOO)
- skeleton's 'collapse' for preventing a critical hit
- quick coercion, group coercion and lasting coercion for scaring off mooks before combat starts. I know this is controversial, but according to the coerce rules, a critical success will cause the enemy to follow your directives (as long as they will not lead to harm), and they are too scared to retaliate. This is perfect for getting 2 mooks to run away before the fight begins as long as you can talk to them for one round.And all of this is before spells even come to play.
For spells, at level 1, cast magic weapon on the fighter. Spam electric arc and trip/intimidate as 3rd action. If against a high-defense boss, cast 3-action magic missile.
At level 3, cast heightened illusory object on the enemy. Choose an opaque box. The enemy will need to succeed in a disbelieve check or be effectively immobilized and blinded. Each attempt to touch/seek to disbelieve will cost the enemy an action.
If you are worried about survivability, cast mirror image to become an actual tank, turning 3 incoming successful attacks into misses, or crits to hits.
Thank you Vodalian. If I drop the level to 5 does this have the abilities you would have wanted at 5?
I figured that other people would construct wizards and sorcerers before I did, so I made two non-player characters that I could use in my Strength of Thousands campaign. Esi Djana is from Kindled Magic and i'boko is from Hurricane's Howl. They are built around their role in the campaign, optimized to be functional but not min-maxed.
I mentioned Esi Djana in comment #255 as an example of why wizards need more skills. Kindled Magic describes her as an ace student at the Magaambya Academy, active in sports and social events. She knows the impeccable flow spell, but did not prepare it today. Esi corrected her shortage of trained skills with the Skilled human heritage and the Natural Skill human ancestry feat. Stealth would have been more optimal than Performance, but Performance helps more in her classwork. Her Arcane School should be Magaambya, but that curriculum doesn't exist in the wizard rules yet. Ordinarily, Magaambya wizard students would take Druid Multiclass Dedication at 2nd level, but I did not want to muddle the build with multiclassing. Cantrip Expansion stands in the place of the multiclass dedication. Because she is an athletic wizard, she has reasonable strength for staff attacks, so I gave her Sure Strike on her staff and Bespell Strikes to supplement the weapon damage.
Her Magical Shorthand feat represents that she has learned almost every common spell of appropriate rank from the libraries at the Magaambya Academy. Her current spell selection is for traveling through trade routes in the Mwangi jungle while protecting fellow travelers.
Esi Djana Wizard 5
Unique, Medium, Human, Humanoid
Female human wizard
Heritage Skilled (expert Athletics)
Background Sponsored by Family
Arcane School Battle Magic
Arcane Thesis Staff Nexus
Branch Tempest-Sun Mages (expert Tempest-Sun Mage Lore)
Perception +8;
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Mwangi
Skills Acrobatics +9, Arcana(e) +13, Athletics(e) +11, Crafting +11, Diplomacy +9, Magaambya Lore +11, Medicine +9, Nature(e) +11, Occultism +11, Performance +9, Religion +9, Society +11, Tempest-Sun Mage Lore(e) +13
Str +2, Dex +2, Con +0, Int +4.5, Wis +2, Cha +2
Items +1 quilted armor. +1 striking lesser atmospheric staff, dagger, 2 spears, spellbook, healer's tools, various metals for needle darts, adventurer's pack, holy water, minor healing potion, lesser antidote
Ancestry Feats Natural Ambition (Reach Spell), Natural Skill (Crafting, Performance)
Skill Feats Battle Medicine, Hobnobber, Magical Shorthand
General Feat Armor Proficiency
Class features Arcane Bond (staff), Reach Spell feat 1, Cantrip Expansion feat 2, Bespell Strikes feat 4
AC 22; Fort +7, Ref +11, Will +11
HP 38
Speed 25 feet
Melee [One Action] +1 striking staff +10 (two-Hand 2d8) Damage 2d4+2 bludgeoning
Ranged [One Action] spear +9 (thrown 20 ft) Damage 1d6+2 piercing
Arcane Prepared Spells DC 21, attack +11 (* denotes curriculum slot)
3rd cozy cabin, haste, fireball*
2nd dispel magic, false vitality, illusionary creature, mist*
1st breathe fire*, charm, mending, phantasmal minion
Cantrips (3rd) daze, detect magic, electric arc, message, needle darts, prestidigitation, shield*. spout
School focus spell (3rd) (1 focus point) force bolt
Custom Lesser Atmosphere Staff +1 weapon potency and striking runes, 3 charges
Cantrips (3rd) light, gale blast
1st air bubble, gravitational pull, sure strike
I'boko is a Mbe’ke dwarf from Kiutu Village in the Terwa Uplands and attends the Magaambya Academy. The Terwa region has cloud dragons that have granted sorcery to local humanoids, so she can be a sorcerer with draconic bloodline. A dwarf is not the best ancestry for a Charisma attribute--she had only Cha +3 at first--but that is the ancestry of that NPC. Hurricane's Howl describes I'boko as a NG female dwarf rain caller who is a brilliant student who excels at nearly every subject, so she is an ace student like Esi. It also mentions that she cast an illusion. She went to the Magaambya Academy to train to help her village, so her spells need practical utility. But some of that practical utility includes fighting off bandits, so she will have combat spells. I'boko and Esi have a lot of spells in common for easier comparison.
I'boko Sorcerer 5
Unique, Medium, Dwarf, Humanoid
Female dwarf sorcerer
Heritage Elemental Heart (cold Energy Emanation)
Background Sponsored by a Village
Bloodline Draconic (Cloud)
Branch] Rain Scribes (expert Rain Scribe Lore)
[b]Perception +8; darkvision
Languages Common, Dwarven, Draconic, Garundi, Mwangi, Orcish
Skills Arcana(e) +13, Crafting +11, Diplomacy +11, Dwarven Lore(e) +13, Intimidation +11, Medicine +9, Mountain Lore +11, Nature(e) +11, Occultism +11, Performance +11, Rain Scribe Lore(e) +13, Religion +9, Society +11, Survival +9
Str +0, Dex +2, Con +1, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +4
Items +1 studded leather armor, +1 striking clan dagger, +1 striking handwraps of might blows, dagger, healer's tools, various metals for needle darts, adventurer's pack, holy water, minor healing potion, lesser antidote
Ancestry Feats Dwarven Lore, Fire Savvy
Skill Feats Forager, Intimidating Glare, Magical Crafting
General Feat Armor Proficiency
Class features Signature Spells, Reach Spell feat 1,[/url] Cantrip Expansion feat 2
AC 21; Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +12
HP 45
Speed 20 feet
Melee [One Action] +1 striking clan dagger +8 (agile, dwarf, parry, versatile B) Damage 2d4 piercing
Melee [One Action] +1 striking dragon claws +9 (finesse, unarmed, from a spell) Damage 2d4 slashing plus 1d6 electricity
Arcane Spontaneous Spells DC 21, attack +11 (^ denotes signature spell, * denotes granted spell from bloodline)
3rd (3/day) aqueous orb, cloud dragon's cloak, fireball, haste*
2nd (4/day) dispel magic, illusionary creature, mist, resist energy*, translate^
1st (4/day) charm, mending, sure strike*, tailwind^, weave wood
Cantrips (3rd) daze, detect magic, electric arc, message, needle darts, prestidigitation, shield*. spout
Bloodline focus spell (3rd) (1 focus point) dragon claws
Energy Emanation [Two Actions]
Evocation, Primal
Source Character Guide pg. 19 2.0
Frequency once per day
Energy bursts forth from your body. You deal 3d6 cold damage to all adjacent creatures (DC 21 basic Reflex save).
Blood Magic Draconic scales grow briefly on you or one target, granting a +1 status bonus to AC for 1 round.
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Only tangentially related to the topic of the thread, but as a Wizard player I’m extremely confused by why every other caster got so many buffs in the Remaster while the base Wizard chassis actually ate a minor nerf in PC1.
In PC1 Druids were left untouched (slight buff via cantrip changes and focus spell changes), Bards received a pretty big “indirect” buff thanks to focus points changes with Warrior getting huge buffs, Clerics received the buff to Font, and Witches had all of their familiar abilities and Hex cantrips buffed.
Now for PC2 we have confirmation that Oracles have become a 4-slot caster with tons of bespoke Cursebound Feats, and Sorcerers get Dangerous Sorcery as a class feature and stronger Blood Magic Feats.
Between all these QoL improvements for all casters as well as the several buffs, I wonder why they felt that Wizards needed a restriction added? I don’t think Wizards were weak before all these changes, and likely they still aren’t, but did Paizo think they were overtuned in some regard?
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Perhaps having less choices each level for school spells makes the class easier to digest for new players and more distinctly defines the class curriculum by those more narrow options.
And again with how wizards interact with staves especially with staff nexus or spell blending those slots have other uses than the school spell.
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My guess is less that Paizo thought wizards "needed a restriction," and more that it was difficult to figure out a system that was a broad as the spell schools, which are an OGL-ism and had to go, that could be planned and implemented in the time that was allotted.Only tangentially related to the topic of the thread, but as a Wizard player I’m extremely confused by why every other caster got so many buffs in the Remaster while the base Wizard chassis actually ate a minor nerf in PC1.
In PC1 Druids were left untouched (slight buff via cantrip changes and focus spell changes), Bards received a pretty big “indirect” buff thanks to focus points changes with Warrior getting huge buffs, Clerics received the buff to Font, and Witches had all of their familiar abilities and Hex cantrips buffed.
Now for PC2 we have confirmation that Oracles have become a 4-slot caster with tons of bespoke Cursebound Feats, and Sorcerers get Dangerous Sorcery as a class feature and stronger Blood Magic Feats.
Between all these QoL improvements for all casters as well as the several buffs, I wonder why they felt that Wizards needed a restriction added? I don’t think Wizards were weak before all these changes, and likely they still aren’t, but did Paizo think they were overtuned in some regard?
Perhaps, but why was just lifting the restrictions not an option? In the case of the other casters, it feels they lifted restrictions (Clerics no longer need Charisma, Oracles lose a lot of the fiddly bits from Premaster), so why leave a restriction in place at all? Why not just let all Wizards have all 4 of their per-rank slots, and make school choice just affect focus spell choices alongside some flavourful Feat (aka the way the Druid is treated)?
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My guess is less that Paizo thought wizards "needed a restriction," and more that it was difficult to figure out a system that was a broad as the spell schools, which are an OGL-ism and had to go, that could be planned and implemented in the time that was allotted.Only tangentially related to the topic of the thread, but as a Wizard player I’m extremely confused by why every other caster got so many buffs in the Remaster while the base Wizard chassis actually ate a minor nerf in PC1.
In PC1 Druids were left untouched (slight buff via cantrip changes and focus spell changes), Bards received a pretty big “indirect” buff thanks to focus points changes with Warrior getting huge buffs, Clerics received the buff to Font, and Witches had all of their familiar abilities and Hex cantrips buffed.
Now for PC2 we have confirmation that Oracles have become a 4-slot caster with tons of bespoke Cursebound Feats, and Sorcerers get Dangerous Sorcery as a class feature and stronger Blood Magic Feats.
Between all these QoL improvements for all casters as well as the several buffs, I wonder why they felt that Wizards needed a restriction added? I don’t think Wizards were weak before all these changes, and likely they still aren’t, but did Paizo think they were overtuned in some regard?
Perhaps, but why was just lifting the restrictions not an option? In the case of the other casters, it feels they lifted restrictions (Clerics no longer need Charisma, Oracles lose a lot of the fiddly bits from Premaster), so why leave a restriction in place at all? Why not just let all Wizards have all 4 of their per-rank slots, and make school choice just affect focus spell choices alongside some flavourful Feat (aka the way the Druid is treated)?
I would guess its because when we think of wizards we think of them as being tied to the spells they cast. Spells are their theme, sorcerers theme on blood, druids theme on an aspect of nature generally speaking, clerics on dieties. So even if that looks restrictive its certainly on point in terms of how wizards are distinguished from other wizards.
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Because the defining feature of the fantasy RPG wizard is “casts spells from a spellbook.”
Now you can be a hedge wizard, and fall into the universal school, and as long as you plan on casting one spell at least 2 times a day from each significant slot rank, you have 4 anything slots per rank. Also, it is really easy to fill the one school slot from these 6 schools. At very high levels rank 1 and maybe 2 get slotted with an incredibly situational spell, but the whole scroll thing makes that such a non-issue that there is nothing functional to your character to worry about
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Because the defining feature of the fantasy RPG wizard is “casts spells from a spellbook.”
Really? The PF wizard doesn't do that. The spellbook is just something you reference each morning, you never cast from it.
That aside, I'm not really seeing a connection between "casts spells from a spellbook" and "one of your slots is super limited" those are kind of unrelated thoughts (if anything, it decentralizes the spellbook slightly because that slot benefits less from having a bigger book).
IDK. I think it's just okay to acknowledge that the Player Core schools are kind of a flop. We went from "spell schools are being completely redone" to "actually the same thing as premaster but with a smaller spell list"
... You don't even get to poach spells like other full casters do with their bonus lists. It's just kind of shoddy all around.
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That aside, I'm not really seeing a connection between "casts spells from a spellbook" and "one of your slots is super limited" those are kind of unrelated thoughts (if anything, it decentralizes the spellbook slightly because that slot benefits less from having a bigger book).
Pretty much. All the other comments are explaining the thematics of Wizards but I already get the thematics! I even love the thematics - Wizard was, and still remains, my favourite class.
What I don’t understand is why they needed to have such a limit inflicted on them at all. Does it break gameplay? Not at all, actually, I think pretty much any Wizard that’s not Boundary can still make good use of all their spell slots. It just feels bad watching every single other caster, including two different 4-slot casters get back to back buffs, and then wonder if Paizo just has a much higher estimation of the Wizard’s power budget.
I’d be interested to see if designers have ever commented (or will ever comment) about Wizards over performing in internal testing and feeling like this restriction brings them in line. It would explain a lot.
Not that you need the spellbook in hand to cast them, but in that “wizards carry spell books which hold the spells they cast and are pretty much their most important possession.”
The PF2 wizard school is essentially about what starter book your character will be getting, with some specific pages later on reserved for a couple of possible spells that the wizards you learned from particularly value. The school is much more focused on the spell book than on anything inherent about magic now, and I still think that was a good move.
If I would change or add anything to the PF2 wizard it would be to make the school focus spells actually be something you could also switch out daily, and have 2 per school instead of just one, to double down on tying the wizards spells to this inherent memorization element of the class. This is still something that could be added on to the class in a later book as well.
People wanting more skills with the wizard feel like they’re pulling the class in the wrong direction to me. Wizards really focus their intellect into getting more powerful at casting spells, not solving problems with skills. More arcane quality of life rituals that require arcana to cast will cover anything wizards should get to do with skilks.
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The PF2 wizard school is essentially about what starter book your character will be getting, with some specific pages later on reserved for a couple of possible spells that the wizards you learned from particularly value.
The school is much more focused on the spell book than on anything inherent about magic now, and I still think that was a good move.
The only reference the Arcane School feature makes to your spellbook is to state you add your curriculum spells to it. Even the flavour text doesn’t mention it.
Only tangentially related to the topic of the thread, but as a Wizard player I’m extremely confused by why every other caster got so many buffs in the Remaster while the base Wizard chassis actually ate a minor nerf in PC1.
In PC1 Druids were left untouched (slight buff via cantrip changes and focus spell changes), Bards received a pretty big “indirect” buff thanks to focus points changes with Warrior getting huge buffs, Clerics received the buff to Font, and Witches had all of their familiar abilities and Hex cantrips buffed.
Now for PC2 we have confirmation that Oracles have become a 4-slot caster with tons of bespoke Cursebound Feats, and Sorcerers get Dangerous Sorcery as a class feature and stronger Blood Magic Feats.
Between all these QoL improvements for all casters as well as the several buffs, I wonder why they felt that Wizards needed a restriction added? I don’t think Wizards were weak before all these changes, and likely they still aren’t, but did Paizo think they were overtuned in some regard?
Are you serious? 4 slot oracle now? I can't wait to see this. I may have to switch my cleric to an oracle. I really enjoyed oracles in 1E. That was a fun class.
Not sure which staff does d10, but that is an interesting use of staff nexus.It seems like spell blending or staff nexus are the best option for thesis, by popular consensus. Part of me is tempted to say to do an obvious blaster to blaster comparison (battle magic wizard vs draconic sorc would be quite appropriate for that, I think?), since that's come up a lot in the thread.I have an illusions focused build I really want to do with Staff Nexus to just cast Illusory Object like it's a cantrip.
Not the best option for damage though Staff Nexus. Not until you get the really expensive break a staff for like 78d10 AoE force damage option.
Staff of the Magi does 2d10 per charge.
It costs 90,000g though so this is a terrible plan for anything other than a final oh s+%# button.
Probably want to pop off an Indestructiblity first too since you auto crit fail.
I see.
It's good to have a goal.
Are you serious? 4 slot oracle now? I can't wait to see this. I may have to switch my cleric to an oracle. I really enjoyed oracles in 1E. That was a fun class.Only tangentially related to the topic of the thread, but as a Wizard player I’m extremely confused by why every other caster got so many buffs in the Remaster while the base Wizard chassis actually ate a minor nerf in PC1.
In PC1 Druids were left untouched (slight buff via cantrip changes and focus spell changes), Bards received a pretty big “indirect” buff thanks to focus points changes with Warrior getting huge buffs, Clerics received the buff to Font, and Witches had all of their familiar abilities and Hex cantrips buffed.
Now for PC2 we have confirmation that Oracles have become a 4-slot caster with tons of bespoke Cursebound Feats, and Sorcerers get Dangerous Sorcery as a class feature and stronger Blood Magic Feats.
Between all these QoL improvements for all casters as well as the several buffs, I wonder why they felt that Wizards needed a restriction added? I don’t think Wizards were weak before all these changes, and likely they still aren’t, but did Paizo think they were overtuned in some regard?
Yeah, seen a few different people with the early release confirm the 4-slot Oracle thing.
Also heard a few people theorize it’s a typesetting error and I really hope it’s not lol. I’m actually on board with the Oracle being 4-slot the more I think about it, basically all of them except Battle work with the thematics of it. And mechanically, all the Cursebound stuff makes for enough downsides that I justify it.
It could be 4 slots but have restrictions from feats with the cursebound trait. Tradeoffs for slots or something
Or the oracle lost other things like the mystery special abilities. If they lost things like the DR and the mystery abilities, they definitely need 4 slots or something to make up for it.
By the way any encounter suggestions?
and how you would run them?
I was thinking of a 3 encounter day.
Ill start at level 5 but can do it again at level 10 later
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This is a thread largely about the Wizard’s internal quality within PF2 and its place within the scope of the other classes and gameplay therein.
While people occasionally reference PF1 or other D&D-likes as a point of reference, that is not what this thread is about.
The topic of discussion is if the Wizard is a weak class within the confines of PF2.
If I had to sum it up, the way it feels is the wizard stayed mostly in PF1 without the advantages of the base system they exploited so well while everyone else moved to PF2 getting PF2 design and upgrades.
I hope the above folks realize a level 5 wizard versus a level 5 sorcerer means next to nothing as neither class shines much at level 5. You'd be better off showing how much a wizard is behind the full casting bard, cleric, and druid at level 5.
The sorcerer starts coming online as its better feats start coming online and keep getting better. You need a stuff like Crossblooded, Evolution, their second focus spell, Greater Bloodline, Greater Mental Evolution which does compete with Effortless Concentration and such to see how they start outpacing the wizard in interesting play and builds.
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By the way any encounter suggestions?
and how you would run them?I was thinking of a 3 encounter day.
Ill start at level 5 but can do it again at level 10 later
Do as you want. 3 encounters is a good "average" day of adventuring. But it's really up to you as you are doing the test. I also think it'll convince you more than the other players here so really do what you want.
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Yep. Bidi is right. It won't change my mind the wizard is an interesting class to build because you cast a few spells. Everyone already knows the wizard can cast some damaging spells and do some useful thinks with spells like every other legendary caster.
Still won't make it better than a bard casting spells while doing a bard song. Or a cleric casting spells while using font. Or druid casting spells with an AC or changing forms.
Every single legendary caster can blast something, have it crit fail, and do a bunch of damage. The very first time I saw the power of a spell crit fail was on a bard using phantasmal calamity. That was an encounter ending insane spell against mooks.
Problem with the wizard isn't being able to blow off some spells and see some crit fails. It's in their boring class abilities and unnecessarily restrictive curriculums. How exactly do you show that in play?
I cast a force bolt and did some spell blending to cast another spell?
That's why the sorc and wizard should be higher level. When the sorc is cherry picking a great spell off another list and using better focus spells is when they get more interesting. Not casting some spell with the same expert casting as the wizard or the cleric or the witch or the druid and getting some nice failed saves.
It's the abilities like when I use my Untamed Form to fly the party over some walls or across a boiling tar pit or smash down or fly into position to flank with no reaction activated that things get fun. Finding different ways to make Untamed Form shine for no resource cost but a focus point or scouting in form for an hour or all day.
Or using a cool focus spell like Rewrite Possibility fight after fight after fight.
Or having tons of healing so you can fill your slots with battle spells as a cleric.
Stuff like that.
Looks like Dangerous Sorcery was moved from a class feat to a class feature. So RIP archetyping for it.
Is it accessible through archetyping?
Anyway, I agree that with the release of PC2 and both the Sorcerer and the Oracle being buffed, the Wizard seems weaker than it has ever been.
These are areas I can think of that it seems casters care about to work. The biggest things being the first 2.
1. Spell Access what list and extent to which they can poach from other lists to use for slotted spells
2. Spells per day, quantity at each level
3. Quality of focus spells and class specific cantrips
4. Feats that augment or improve spell casting
5. What they can do with a third action (beyond things any class can do)
6. Magic items that work with their class abilities and spells