Hypothetical Speculation: Player Core 3 Ancestry Wishlist

[moosher12]

Thought it would be fun to see what sort of ancestries folk would want for a hypothetical Player Core 3. This thread is not about whether or not there should be a Player Core 3, more in regards to what sort of ancestries people would like to see brought into the Remaster if such a book was made. So I’ll start with my speculative list, assuming 8 ancestries and 3 versatile heritages.

Ancestries
- Anadi
- Bugbear – completes the goblinoid trio, and are somewhat common.
- Caligni
- Kitsune
- Poppet – A fun ancestry that shares a thematic space with Leshies by another flavor.
- Serpentfolk
- Sprite – Quite common, and gives another Tiny option alongside some awakened animals.
- Vanara – They're fun, I just like em.

Much of these are chosen for a sense of frequency to see around Golarion. Anadi and Kitsune have many reasons to travel from their homelands, and given their ability to blend into cultures, can crop up in unexpected places. Calignis and Serpentfolk being added would give some extra representation from the Darklands, especially if serpentfolk are expected to replace the drow.

Versatile Heritages:
- Beastkin – Self explanatory. It's a flexible heritage, it would also bundle well with Howl of the Wild existing.
- Fleshwarp – Switch from ancestry to versatile heritage.
- Geniekin – Nephilim in PC1, Dhampirs in PC2, this seems a logical step to me. Hopefully would run the gamut for all 6 subtypes.

I’m curious what ancestries you all would like to see in this situation!

[Nicolas Paradise]

I would like the Djinikin to get the Nephilim treatment and consolidate all their options into one place.

I would like to see any options like the Aasimar and Tiefling options that are still stuck in OGL books be put in an additional options section for Nephilim to clean up the needing to go to multiple sources for all the options for one ancestry.

Not likely to happen since they will likely be in SF2E but I would like to see Kasatha added in and have Androids moved forward into an ORC book.

Anandi getting a bit if a cleanup to be more inline with their bestiary stat block from level 1 would be nice.

Would be cool if the other Planetouched were given a place or added as additional options and heritages for Nephilim.

[pH unbalanced]

Are Kayal in PC2? If not, that's one of my favorite ancestries and I'd love to see them expanded.

Also Vishkanya.

I like Fleshwarp as its own Ancestry, because many (most?) Fleshwarps are not altered versions of other Ancestries, they are created from scratch. (I believe it depends on the source -- I think Drow Fleshwarps used existing people as raw materials, but the factories in Nex don't.)

[moosher12]

Nicolas Paradise wrote:

I would like the Djinikin to get the Nephilim treatment and consolidate all their options into one place.

Not likely to happen since they will likely be in SF2E but I would like to see Kasatha added in and have Androids moved forward into an ORC book.

Would be cool if the other Planetouched were given a place or added as additional options and heritages for Nephilim.

Kasathas and Androids would be amazing, but I'd imagine if Kasathas and Androids were brought to remastered second edition, I'd figure it'd probably be only through Starfinder, but in such a way they'd function as well as they would if they were in a Pathfinder book. On the bright side if Paizo chooses that route, if they ever do a Divine Mysteries-style Ancestry Guide remake, that would open up a slot for a new ancestry. Though I suppose that'd be at the caveat of needing to use the Starfinder 2E AoN or a Starfinder book to use an Android.

And agreed, would love to see the Aphorite and Ganzi get returned to the Nephilim. I didn't include them in my list, because I figured if Paizo was to ever add them, it'd likely be in the aforementioned Ancestry Guide remake. The Geniekin alike, would be interesting to see since they have an array of universal geniekin feats feats anyway. Generalizing some more of their feats and letting geniekin elemental subtypes be lineages seems an interesting avenue to explore and I'm all for it.

pH unbalanced wrote:

Are Kayal in PC2? If not, that's one of my favorite ancestries and I'd love to see them expanded.

I like Fleshwarp as its own Ancestry, because many (most?) Fleshwarps are not altered versions of other Ancestries, they are created from scratch. (I believe it depends on the source -- I think Drow Fleshwarps used existing people as raw materials, but the factories in Nex don't.)

AFAIK, they are not (PC2 would have the Amurrun, Hobgoblin, Iruxi, Kholo, Kobold, Tengu, Tripkee, and Ysoki ancestries, plus the Dhampir, Dragonblood, and Dustwalker versatile heritages) Would love to see them make a return. Though after having a few players asking to play a Kayal version of other ancestries, I'd love to see the Kayal as a versatile heritage for other ancestries that might have gotten swept up into the Netherworld. (If anything, I feel they can be a justified as a Nephilim Lineage, perhaps alongside a First World equivalent, though I'm very sure if they entered Remaster, they'd be their own thing). Was gonna add them to my list, but werecreature barely won out for my personal list. Either way, Kayals remain strong contenders and I'd still be very happy to see them instead.

As for fleshwarps, that's a good point. I am glad the Custom Mixed Heritage rule exists nonetheless. Lot of interesting possibilities to being a fleshwarped human numerian barbarian, a fleshwarped goblin lamashtu worshipper, or a fleshwarped kholo mana waste walker, for example.

[Theaitetos]

Any lacking general versatile heritages. If Nephilim cover the outer planes, Geniekin the elemental planes, Awakened Animals all animals, Dragonblooded the dragon trait, ... then the Beastkin should cover beasts instead of just animals (e.g. Paaridar, Gargoyles, Lamia, Phoenix).

There should be general versatile heritages for Fey-born (not just Sprites), for Aberration-influenced (not just Fleshwarp) like Noppera-Bo & those touched by the Outer Realms, for negative-affinity creatures (not just Dhampirs) like Mortics & Revenants & Siabrae & Thatchlings, and for missing planes like the Astral Plane (Ennosites) or positive/negative (creation/void). Maybe there can even be Oozes, like a Mezlan versatile heritage.

Some heritages need fleshing out, like the Nephilim getting monitors as well besides just fiends & celestials, and Reflections getting more feats. But ancestries are missing a lot of feats as well, e.g. Anadi and Vishkanya getting something besides poison.

As for new ancestries, we're still missing Giants (which includes cyclopes, oni, trolls), since Howl introduced large ancestries already, and Monstrous Humanoids like Medusas/Sthenos. Or maybe a general ancestry for Plant-Life (not just Leshy & Ghorans), for Spirits like Kami & Rakshasa & Spirit Guides, and for Animated Objects (not just Poppets) like Living Armors & Terra-Cottas & Shabti.

Though I can imagine Starfinder 2e giving us more options as well, with so many more ancestries from distant worlds or verstatile heritages like Half-Constructs (Clockwork Cyborgs in PF!). Those shouldn't be in a potential PC3.

[YuriP]

Wishlist for PC3:

Ancestries and Heritages: All published before the RoE.
Classes: All published before the RoE.

It may look too big but usually each ancestry occupy around 5 pages and versatile heritages around 3 pages. So with 150 pages is possible to put the rest of all published ancestries in a single book. Also each class occupy something around 15-20 pages. So is possible to put the remaining classes in around 120 pages.

GM core have 336 pages, PC1 have 464 pages!

So IMO it's possible to put all remaining ancestries, heritages, classes, spells in a single book. So I don't see too much reason to select what ancestries and classes to put into a single book finishing the remaster collection. Maybe with an additional book with the remaining items with a GM Core 2 to put firearms and some more alternative rules and GM content.

[BotBrain]

Definitely a reprint of the Ganzi and Aphorite options. I know we can just use them as-is either under Nephilim or as discrete races but it'd be nice to have a proper remaster version for 'em.

[Gaulin]

While I would love the geniekin consolidated into one versatile heritage, talos and ardande being published in RoE makes that a little wonky since RoE is ORC ready already. Otherwise I would love a single heritage for them all.

Personally I would like to eventually have most major types of creatures depicted with an ancestry and a versatile heritage.

Animal - Awakened animal for ancestry, beastkin for heritage.

Plant - leshy, conrasu, ghoran for ancestry, maybe an argument could be make for ardande for heritage but I think it could use its own.

Undead - Skele (and a bunch of options from book of the dead but not sure where to put those) for ancestry and dhampir for heritage.

Elemental - I would love a straight up elemental ancestry, and we have all the geniekin for heritages.

Dragon - A dragon ancestry would be cool (an official, 1st party), and we have dragon blood heritage on the way.

Divine - I'm not super sure if we have a pure divine ancestry really? Maybe something upcoming, not sure. But we have nephilim for heritage, as well as ghanzi, aphorite, and duskwalker.

Giant - Now that large ancestries are a thing, yeah it would be cool to have both an ancestry and heritage for this category.

Aberration - Fleshwarps for ancestry, and count me in for wanting a heritage for Fleshwarp as well.

Construct - Android, automaton, and poppet for ancestries. I kind of feel like android would have been better as a heritage but oh well, yeah we need a heritage here.

Fey - Gnomes and sprites for ancestry, no real heritages.

Shadow - we have kayal, but would be cool to have a shadow heritage.

I feel like that's most of them, though arguments could be made for other creature types. But those are my main hopes.

[JohannVonUlm]

I would love to see Shoony get some attention outside of their one adventure path appearance.

[moosher12]

YuriP wrote:

Wishlist for PC3:

Ancestries and Heritages: All published before the RoE.
Classes: All published before the RoE.

It may look too big but usually each ancestry occupy around 5 pages and versatile heritages around 3 pages. So with 150 pages is possible to put the rest of all published ancestries in a single book. Also each class occupy something around 15-20 pages. So is possible to put the remaining classes in around 120 pages.

GM core have 336 pages, PC1 have 464 pages!

So IMO it's possible to put all remaining ancestries, heritages, classes, spells in a single book. So I don't see too much reason to select what ancestries and classes to put into a single book finishing the remaster collection. Maybe with an additional book with the remaining items with a GM Core 2 to put firearms and some more alternative rules and GM content.

While I certainly would not complain if that was the case, the page count would unfortunately enforce a limiter. PC2 is only advertised to have around 320 pages, and I'd expect a similar page count for a PC3. There likely would not be room for much more then the normal rate of ancestries and heritages while leaving room for 6-7 classes, an array of class archetypes and select ported and new archetypes, backgrounds, spells, equipment, and feats, to give such a book a well-rounded scope.

But nonetheless, I would love to see any remaining ancestries not covered via a PC3 in a separate book: perhaps an Ancestry Guide remake as with Divine Mysteries.

Rambling Stats Enclosed:

Though, 150 pages feels limited for this goal if such a book was formatted like the Ancestry Guide was.

Only about half of the Ancestry Guide is devoted to new ancestries and heritages. A more realistic expectation for page length is 6 pages for an ancestry, and 4 pages for a heritage.

There are 20 ancestries and 11 heritages remaining, reduced to 9 if you bundle the aphorite and ganzi into nephilim, and reduced to 3 if you bundle all the geniekin into one ancestry. Subtract 8 ancestries and 3 heritages from PC3, and you're looking at a range from 72-116 pages, depending on how the aphorite and ganzi, and the geniekin heritages would be handled. The ancestry guide devoted approximately 60 pages to enriching existing ancestries and heritages.

Expanding to a 200 or even 300 page book would probably be required for a full port of the legacy ancestry material. 200 pages seems like enough to get a functional port, and 300 might give room to introduce new wanted ancestries to add value to such a book for customers that are looking for completely new content, or even giving us some other features such as ancestry and heritage creation guidelines similar to the old Advanced Race Guide.

[The Raven Black]

I think many Ancestries would fit better in LO regional books.

[YuriP]

Maybe but they put many of the Ancestries that was in the LO books into PC1 and PC2 in remaster. As the ideia of the "PC3" would be a compiled book and as we already have LO books explaining better the Ancestries in each Golarion's region I don't think that would be a problem to have 1 or 2 books just compiling all the player's content in a single remastered collection. If you are an GM and/or just want to know more about Golarion content it will still better to just buy the currently LO books instead.

[Tridus]

The Raven Black wrote:

I think many Ancestries would fit better in LO regional books.

They could, except those books are probably never getting updated and ancestries are very much a "players really like lots of variety here" option.

It's actually really frustrating that Paizo puts some ancestries (and classes for that matter) in core books that get lots of support/new options/etc, while other ones are in books that just don't get that same level of support and are basically "done" as soon as they're released.

IMO Shoony is the worst example: putting in an AP book was a mistake because people that know about it really like it (dogs are really popular and the art sells it), but its discoverability is relatively poor and it's never going to get updated/added to.

Taking all that kind of content and putting it in a PC3 is a big "here's tons of stuff you can use in your game without needing to find it in 17 different books, all updated and ready to go... oh and now AP authors can create extra stuff for it if they want instead of that just being limited to the 'core' stuff."

Ancestry options in general are a thing that get a lot of attention because its an area where players love variety. That stuff would sell.

[moosher12]

As a loose tangent: I wonder what a good name for such an ancestry collection would be. Ancestry Core does not sound right to me, as I think it would give an expectation that PC1, PC2, and potential PC3 ancestries would be included in their base forms, not just expanded on. Perhaps Ancestries Expanded, or Advanced Ancestries, but I'm not sure either has quite the ideal ring to it.

Though either way, referring back to Tridus' comment:

Tridus wrote:

It's actually really frustrating that Paizo puts some ancestries (and classes for that matter) in core books that get lots of support/new options/etc, while other ones are in books that just don't get that same level of support and are basically "done" as soon as they're released.

I wonder how viable it would be to have an ancestry expansion series, where the first book ports the remaining Legacy ancestries and heritages, and expands upon the existing PC1, PC2, and potential PC3 ancestries and heritages, perhaps with some new ancestries and heritages to boot.

Then, a second book can expand on the existing ancestries, before adding a host of new ancestries, carrying on the trend into as many sequal books as Paizo wants.

Basically like a Bestiary/Monster Core-style series, but for ancestries and heritages.

I do somewhat agree that a series like this could be placed as a Lost Omens series rather than a Core series. If this was the case. some page space could probably even be a cultural travelogue about living among the different ancestries to talk more about their cultural distinctions, like with the Zoetrope crew. The only problem is it would sacrifice room for new ancestries and heritages.

[Perpdepog]

UriP wrote:

Maybe but they put many of the Ancestries that was in the LO books into PC1 and PC2 in remaster.

I'm not sure I'd call five "many," myself, not compared to how many have shown up overall.

I think those ancestries are also along the lines of what I'd like to see in a hypothetical Ancestry Core or what have you; I'd like to see ancestries who were affected by the swap from OGL to ORC, like the gnoll/kholo and grippli/tripkee be most.
Offhand the only ancestry I can think of who fits that bill is the sprite, because one of their heritages is grig, and IIRC grigs are OGL, but I'm sure there are others. There's probably some OGL overlap with the elemental versatile heritages, as well, and there are a few name changes it'd be nice to see codified in new books. (And if we're talking about stuff we'd just like to see, I wouldn't mind if some of those heritages had their darkvision removed and exchanged for something else.)

[keftiu]

I do hope an old decision can be overturned and that we see Couatl Nephilim at some point - or perhaps their own Versatile Heritage, otherwise.

[Gorgo Primus]

We have Catfolk, so I’d like to see Shoony remastered and made broader to cover all dog-people in a PC3. But yeah, I think if they did PC3 they should just put every ancestry premaster who isn’t in PC1+2 and remaster those. Could even throw in Bugbear as a new thing!

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

keftiu wrote:

I do hope an old decision can be overturned and that we see Couatl Nephilim at some point - or perhaps their own Versatile Heritage, otherwise.

I suppose if oni can be split into their own non-nephilim heritage as the hungerseed... perhaps a rainbow featherscale is not wholly out of the question =3

[Karmagator]

In regards to more Starfinder core ancestries making it into a PF2 book in the forseeable future, I wouldn't place any hope on that. Not with the SF2 playtest starting in August.

Both Kasatha and SF2 Androids will have playable versions then. The only problem might be limited feat or heritage choices, as many of those will probably interact with things (e.g. computers) that are not present in a normal PF2 game. So it's a good news / bad news kind of situation.