Antics with Mirror's Reflection

[Ravingdork]

It occurred to me today that mirror's reflection could be REALLY good on certain base classes. A non-thaumaturge can get it with Thaumaturge Dedication (2nd-level) and the Implement Initiate (6th-level) feats.

Take the Champion class for example, if you can be in two places at once, you are twice as likely to trigger your champion's reaction and protect your allies over a broader area. It also works well with the expected champion action economy. You could Stride, Strike, then activate mirror's reflection. If you don't need to Stride, then perhaps you could Raise Shield (which might even act as your mirror!) or take some other worthwhile action, like Demoralize or Glimpse Vulnerability. It might make you slightly more open to attack, but if that draws in more aggro, it just makes you that much more of an effective tank for your allies.

I'm sorely tempted to make a changeling with multiple personalities that manifest as the illusions, each looking slightly different from one another. Or perhaps a redeemed blackguard turned champion that projects his past self when wanton violence becomes necessary. Or perhaps someone tangled in time, with alternate realities constantly dumping time duplicates on him?

I was also considering how it might interact with the kineticit's auras and similar abilities. I was thinking it would be neat to have two overlapping auras 15 feet apart from one another, effectively getting a wider area. Perhaps an ice witch with temporary simulacrums of herself?

On closer inspection though, it looks like mirror's reflection says "any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act." Still, how does that work with kineticist auras, which are likely already on? Even if a GM rules that only one of the two kineticists projects an aura (the other being an illusory aura I suppose) once you do something like make an elemental blast from the inactive aura position, the one with the active aura vanishes. Does the aura's effect then suddenly "hop" to the new position?

Or perhaps it just works in both places because it's not really something you generated, but rather was already ongoing. If it's on when you use mirror's reflection, it just is.

What are your thoughts on some of the ideas above? Do you have any other cool mirror's reflection combos or ideas of your own to share?

[Megistone]

I don't think you can have two auras, but you can decide which of your copies the aura comes from each time you act - which means when you activate it, or when you activate the mirror. I'm dubious if you can change the aura's location when you act in some other way.

[Gortle]

any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act

The way I read this you need to decide the location when you do the action that generates the effect. You also only get one effect not two.

So using a Champion's Reaction from either location looks valid.

A Kineticists Aura could come from either location. But for you need to decide the location when you generate the effect.

A generous GM might let you count sustaining an effect to be the same as generating the effect, and let you bounce between locations. Though I'd only allow something like True Shapeshifter to do it as it is like recasting with a new effect.

[Easl]

Ravingdork wrote:

Even if a GM rules that only one of the two kineticists projects an aura (the other being an illusory aura I suppose) once you do something like make an elemental blast from the inactive aura position, the one with the active aura vanishes. Does the aura's effect then suddenly "hop" to the new position?

I'd say yes.

Kineticist 1st action: opens gate and uses free blast. Chooses "left" reflection to act from. Left becomes both source of blast and center of aura.

Kineticst 2nd action: decides to blast from the "right" reflection. So for action 2 and future events, the right reflection is now the center of the aura and left is not.

Etc.

In terms of story and visuals, this is just me but I'd probably describe both reflections as having a reflected aura (though it only has a mechanical effect for one at a time). That might be giving the mirror more AoE than it was originally written to have, but it seems like it's a good visual way to describe the mechanics as written.

[Megistone]

Yeah, I mean, it would be strange if you did something on one side, and the aura kept coming from the other.

[Castilliano]

If one doesn't have a good use for a spare free hand to hold the mirror and some Charisma, then yep, there's some utility there, much of it unique. Yet how many PCs have both and no better archetype?

[FreneticKineticAscetic]

Castilliano wrote:

If one doesn't have a good use for a spare free hand to hold the mirror and some Charisma, then yep, there's some utility there, much of it unique. Yet how many PCs have both and no better archetype?

“Better” is very subjective, and only matters if you’re min maxing, which is also subjective since you need to take party optimization into account. This falls more under the purview of “doesn’t this seem cool?” Which I would say it is!

As for two kineticist auras, I’d agree that only one can have the “real” aura. Expanding the kineticists aura size is a 10th level feat that’s unskippable for many builds, granting a similar effect at 2nd level and allowing it to stack with the level 10 version would be a bit too pushed. However, I think the text from the implement answers the question neatly:

Quote:

Your mirror self mimics your actions exactly, but any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act.

Your kineticist aura is an effect, so it can come from only one position. Whenever you act, you pick the position it emanates from. Barring a clarification from another rules source, I’d make the same ruling for any ongoing effect emanating from your position, such as bless, courageous anthem, or other aura-type effects - pick its origin each time you act. If it turns out to be too strong, then nerf it, but as it stands mirror implement is a very strong option regardless- though kineticists aren’t generally great at utilizing charisma, so that’s a consideration.

[Castilliano]

Yes, "better" is subjective, which is also why it's an adjective everybody can appreciate, not only min-maxers. And note that the OP begins by saying how "REALLY good" this could be for certain base classes. Hence my question re: how many PCs have the free hand, the Charisma, and lack of a better archetype (for OP's statement to be true)?

I'd imagine few heroic fantasy concepts* would be edified by having them hold a mirror, so I'm skeptical about the premise. IMO most every PC would benefit from having the trickiness of a Thaumaturgist's mirror as an option, but enough to invest in it? Which is to say I'm skeptical about the mirror's value being so broad for so many PCs, whether in terms of power, concept, or even coolness. And part of that is there's so many competing cool options.

*With the exception of Japanese anime which often have a narcissistic character who indulges in flipping their hair and being gorgeous as lovely icons sprinkle out in an aura.

[Ravingdork]

"Each time you act" is pretty vague.

As a free action I speak, even though it is not my turn. I have acted, therefore the aura bounces.

[Gortle]

Megistone wrote:

Yeah, I mean, it would be strange if you did something on one side, and the aura kept coming from the other.

That seems to be the point of the power. I mean you can flank with yourself, so the power seems to do just that.

[Gortle]

Ravingdork wrote:

"Each time you act" is pretty vague.

As a free action I speak, even though it is not my turn. I have acted, therefore the aura bounces.

I agree it is vague, but no don't read it like that. You need more of the phrase

any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act

It is only actions that generate an effect that allow you to decide where that effect comes from.
That is once each time you generate an effect, for each effect. There is nothing explicit about moving effects you have already generated. So even though the language does allow that interpretation, the language doesn't require that interpretation. So as a GM I choose the interpretation that makes most sense: no bouncing auras.

[Ravingdork]

Is speaking not generating the effect of sound?

;)

[Farien]

Is being visible not generating the effect of redirecting light?

Or just by having an image there, it produces the effect of providing flanking.

[RPG-Geek]

I could see a Swashbuckler that's already boosting Charisma having fun with this idea.

[Red Griffyn]

If you have a kind GM... what is defined as a 'mirror' can be a little more open ended. Mirror like finish can be on a weapon (e.g., the cooperative blade) or a shield (reflecting shield or turnabout shield). Then what we're talking about is a fighter with a falcata echo knighting about for flanking and being hyper mobile. Maybe a falcata + dogslicer so you can teleport into flank and double slice.

[Easl]

Ravingdork wrote:

As a free action I speak, even though it is not my turn. I have acted, therefore the aura bounces.

A free action with no trigger follows the same rules as a single action (except the action cost). It must be used on your turn and can’t be used during another action. A free action with a trigger follows the same rules as a reaction (except the reaction cost). It can be used any time its trigger is met.

"Free action" in game terms /= "speaking out of my turn" or other role-playing, scene-setting but nonmechanical things a PC might do. It's a specific type of action with rules about when you can use it and under what circumstance.

So yes, absolutely, if the thaumaturge PC has a free action whose trigger is met, then I would let them use it to change which reflection is the one creating effects during someone else's turn. But this does not give the PC free license to switch reflections any time the player says "I raise one eyebrow" or whatever.

[Squiggit]

Gortle wrote:

It is only actions that generate an effect that allow you to decide where that effect comes from.
That is once each time you generate an effect, for each effect. There is nothing explicit about moving effects you have already generated. So even though the language does allow that interpretation, the language doesn't require that interpretation. So as a GM I choose the interpretation that makes most sense: no bouncing auras.

That first sentence definitely doesn't come from the rules, and it somewhat doesn't even make sense given that you have to re-activate your mirror at least every turn.

[Ravingdork]

Easl wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

As a free action I speak, even though it is not my turn. I have acted, therefore the aura bounces.

A free action with no trigger follows the same rules as a single action (except the action cost). It must be used on your turn and can’t be used during another action. A free action with a trigger follows the same rules as a reaction (except the reaction cost). It can be used any time its trigger is met.

"Free action" in game terms /= "speaking out of my turn" or other role-playing, scene-setting but nonmechanical things a PC might do. It's a specific type of action with rules about when you can use it and under what circumstance.

So yes, absolutely, if the thaumaturge PC has a free action whose trigger is met, then I would let them use it to change which reflection is the one creating effects during someone else's turn. But this does not give the PC free license to switch reflections any time the player says "I raise one eyebrow" or whatever.

Speaking isn't a free action. It appears I was mistaken.

Actions
Speaking (page 419) normally doesn't take an action.

Player Core, Page 419
As long as you can act, you can also speak. You don’t need to spend any type of action to speak, but because a round represents 6 seconds of time, you can usually speak at most a single sentence or so per round. Special uses of speech, such as attempting a Deception skill check to Lie, require spending actions and follow their own rules. All speech has the auditory trait. If you communicate in some way other than speech, other rules might apply. For instance, using sign language is visual instead of auditory.

[Easl]

Ravingdork wrote:

Speaking isn't a free action. It appears I was mistaken.

Yeah, it's easy enough to slip into thinking that the term 'free action' means 'any trivial thing I can think of which isn't covered by the rules.' But it isn't that. Those sorts of things are probably better thought of as nonactions, as they don't use the formal rules for official game actions at all. Or if they do, they do so by GM ruling instead of rulebook text.

[The Raven Black]

Castilliano wrote:

If one doesn't have a good use for a spare free hand to hold the mirror and some Charisma, then yep, there's some utility there, much of it unique. Yet how many PCs have both and no better archetype?

Kineticist sounds like it would fit. Though much better in a free archetype game.

[Gortle]

Squiggit wrote:

Gortle wrote:

That first sentence definitely doesn't come from the rules, and it somewhat doesn't even make sense given that you have to re-activate your mirror at least every turn.

I was paraphrasing the line directly above it. Which I quoted in italics. It was an interpretation. I don't see that was unclear in any way.

any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act

So what is each time you act?

1) every action you take
2) every action you do that generates an effect
3) whenever you activate the mirror

I am suggesting that only 2) is reasonable.

[Squiggit]

How would you even adjudicate "only 2 is reasonable" if you have an effect that's already active when you use your mirror (like an aura) in a way that's consistent with both the spirit and text of the ability? You'd have to also use interpretation 3 at the same time.

[Easl]

Gortle wrote:

any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act

So what is each time you act?

1) every action you take
2) every action you do that generates an effect
3) whenever you activate the mirror

I am suggesting that only 2) is reasonable.

I think you might be splitting hairs. Given that the player core p426 says Anything you do in the game has an effect, 1 and 2 are the same.

[Gortle]

Easl wrote:

Gortle wrote:

any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act

So what is each time you act?

1) every action you take
2) every action you do that generates an effect
3) whenever you activate the mirror

I am suggesting that only 2) is reasonable.

I think you might be splitting hairs. Given that the player core p426 says Anything you do in the game has an effect, 1 and 2 are the same.

You are misreading me. I am asserting for 2) that you decide for each effect exactly once when you generate that effect. Whereas 1) is whenever you do any action you can change the position of all your existing effects.

[Easl]

Some effects specify a location or a separate thing as a target. They wouldn't change position. You are "left" image, you cast light attached to a creature, use next action to be the "right" image...absolutely, the light stays on the creature. No problemo. But when the thaumaturge is the target or the center of an effect, then IMO when the thaumaturge shifts from left to right image, the effect goes with them. I think that's the RAI - that there's only ever one thaumaturge, it's just a question of where. So for a thaumaturge/kineticist who generates an aura, the aura would go with them. IMO. For the aura and the gate to stay in one place while the blasts come from another would effectively put the t/k in both places at once. Which is the specific situation I think the "only one" text is intended to prevent.

[FreneticKineticAscetic]

Quote:

For the aura and the gate to stay in one place while the blasts come from another would effectively put the t/k in both places at once. Which is the specific situation I think the "only one" text is intended to prevent.

I’m surprisingly torn on this. I think that running it the way you’re suggesting - do an action originating from one position, that becomes the “real” you and becomes the origin of all your ongoing effects until you take another action - is very reasonable. At the same time, it seems like the whole point of the mirror is to gain some of the benefits of being in two places at once.

Since both copies are treated as you for the purposes of being attacked, there’s no trickery involved in making enemies pick your position, so being able to discretely pick the origins of effects as you go seems like a major upside of using the mirror rather than just moving. The other is being able to flank with yourself, but giving up ~10 feet of movement, a defining class ability, and being in two places for the purposes of enemy attacks/aoes seems kind of weak on paper versus just using a stride and having allies. Then again, that’s the primary benefit for non-aura effect thaumaturges, so it can’t be that bad.

Leaving an aura effect in one spot while attacking/blasting/using an impulse from the other seems like it would open up more tactical usage of the implement, and I’m not sure it would break balance or even goes against the spirit of the implement. If you’re in positions A and B, you can certainly make an attack from position B during your turn, then choose position A at the beginning of your next turn as the copy that remains. Since you’re not acting when this happens, your “real” position isn’t tied to the position of your last action - I’m not sure you even have a “real” position. That also means that “bouncing auras” is always an allowed effect, unless choosing A over B deactivates all of your ongoing effects, which is unlikely.

Still, the best thing to do would be to run it and see what feels best. Of course that’s usually the answer, but so it goes. If I was GM ing for a mirror thaumaturge with ongoing “aura” type effects, I’d probably start with allowing effects to bounce each time you take an action, then tune that down if it felt overly pushed or unfair.

[Easl]

FreneticKineticAscetic wrote:

Since both copies are treated as you for the purposes of being attacked,

They aren't entirely (treated as both for purposes of being attacked), though. Consider the situation of both reflections getting hit with the same fireball. The rules are very specific about this: you only take damage once. You occupy both spaces...sort of. But not in terms of both places exuding your aura. Or taking heat and fire damage from an explosion that covers both places. For those sorts of things, there is only one you. Pick which one, each time you act.

Quote:

Leaving an aura effect in one spot while attacking/blasting/using an impulse from the other seems like it would open up more tactical usage of the implement, and I’m not sure it would break balance or even goes against the spirit of the implement.

It sure would open up some new player opportunities. And I also agree it probably wouldn't be tgtbt. Seems like a fine homerule for tables that want to explore the coolness of mirror implement. I just don't think it's RAI.

[Dubious Scholar]

Auras are kind of a grey area. I think the clause was written more with the intent of things like cones and lines and just active things in general.

I'd argue that auras should count both locations though because both copies of you already count for other passive things like flanking. Well, especially flanking. If you can count as threatening creatures next to both versions of you at once, surely they should also both be within any other passive effect that cares about their distance from you, right?

[FreneticKineticAscetic]

Easl wrote:

FreneticKineticAscetic wrote:

Since both copies are treated as you for the purposes of being attacked,

They aren't entirely (treated as both for purposes of being attacked), though. Consider the situation of both reflections getting hit with the same fireball. The rules are very specific about this: you only take damage once. You occupy both spaces...sort of. But not in terms of both places exuding your aura. Or taking heat and fire damage from an explosion that covers both places. For those sorts of things, there is only one you. Pick which one, each time you act.

Quote:

Leaving an aura effect in one spot while attacking/blasting/using an impulse from the other seems like it would open up more tactical usage of the implement, and I’m not sure it would break balance or even goes against the spirit of the implement.

It sure would open up some new player opportunities. And I also agree it probably wouldn't be tgtbt. Seems like a fine homerule for tables that want to explore the coolness of mirror implement. I just don't think it's RAI.

I agree the aura can only be in one spot at the same time, I just think it doesn’t necessarily have to move to the same place you’re acting from. You don’t have to (or get to) pick a spot you’re in for the purposes of the fireball - if it hits both, you only get hit once because there’s only one you, but if it hits A or B it doesn’t matter which one you've acted from last, or which one you’re emanating auras from - they’re in a superposition as the “real” you, and you take the full effect. The first line of the ability seems to agree: “ You reflect an illusory image of yourself into another unoccupied space within 15 feet that you can see. You are treated as being in both spaces until the start of your next turn.” Effect origins and aoe interactions seem to be more a balancing issue than an intention to me.

To be honest, I’m not sure there are RAI for these sorts of edge cases with the mirror. There are too many possibilities - physical effects like grapples, mental effects like incapacitation spells, edge cases like persistent damage - that could go one way or another to define them all, or even think of them. I think they left it vague enough for interpretation, with the hard limiters of having effects originate from only one position, and having aoes and other multi-target effects only hit you once. I’d run it one way, but I do think yours is equally reasonable.

[Squiggit]

FreneticKineticAscetic wrote:

I agree the aura can only be in one spot at the same time, I just think it doesn’t necessarily have to move to the same place you’re acting from.

I tentatively disagree. The ability says "you pick each time you act" but it doesn't say you pick separately for different effects. So if you take an action and choose Mirror A as the source of your effects, then that means any effect on you is centered around A until you swap again.

[Ravingdork]

*Munches popcorn*

*Reading intensifies*

[The Raven Black]

Squiggit wrote:

FreneticKineticAscetic wrote:

I agree the aura can only be in one spot at the same time, I just think it doesn’t necessarily have to move to the same place you’re acting from.

I tentatively disagree. The ability says "you pick each time you act" but it doesn't say you pick separately for different effects. So if you take an action and choose Mirror A as the source of your effects, then that means any effect on you is centered around A until you swap again.

I think this is the easiest way to adjudicate the whole thing. Lest we end up with some effects centered on A and other effects centered on B.

[shroudb]

In my minds eye mirror always was a Schroedinger's effect.*

You exist at both and neither, until you act (any act) in which case you basically "open the box" and you know the state.

Based on that, any sort of "act" is enough for all effects to now act according to the current state, until you close the box and open it again that is.

*Or to modify the original theorem, instead of one box and the question "alive or dead" you have two linked boxes where the cat can freely move from one to another. Until you open one of them, you don't know if the cat is in the left or in the right (but you know that it's always in one or the other).

[Easl]

shroudb wrote:

In my minds eye mirror always was a Schroedinger's effect.*

You exist at both and neither, until you act (any act) in which case you basically "open the box" and you know the state.

A pox on you Copenhagenists and your wavefunction collapses! The many worlds view requires no handwavey collapse/uncollapse mechanisms, you just don't like the implications! ;)

Kidding aside, I very much like Squiggit's and Raven Black's summary position, and that's the way I'd run it too.

RD, are you actually encountering this situation in a game? If so, which way did you (as GM) or your GM decide to rule on it, and how has that choice played out? Pros, cons? Lessons learned? Any takeaways you have from the at-table experience of playing it one way or the other? ...Or was your original question just a speculative hypothetical on a combo that has never come up in your games?

[Ravingdork]

Easl wrote:

RD, are you actually encountering this situation in a game?

Not as yet. None of my players have played a thaumaturge yet, and my only thaumaturge, in PFS, doesn't use a mirror implement.

Easl wrote:

If so, which way did you (as GM) or your GM decide to rule on it, and how has that choice played out? Pros, cons? Lessons learned? Any takeaways you have from the at-table experience of playing it one way or the other?

N/A

Easl wrote:

...Or was your original question just a speculative hypothetical on a combo that has never come up in your games?

This came up because I had a random lightbulb moment, thought it would make for an awesome character (or characters), and wanted to confirm people's general thoughts on the matter before committing to the time and effort of making such a character (and risking having it get rejected or ruled against). That might happen anyways, but I figured if people were generally of like mind, then I could at least make a go of it with more confidence.

I was also hoping people would present some of their own awesome ideas.

[Ravingdork]

ADDENDUM: My champion/sorcerer in Agents of Edgewatch just reached level 19 this morning. So I took some downtime to retrain out my useless animal companion feats for Thaumaturge Dedication and Implement Initiate to get mirror's reflection.

I'll let you know how it goes after next week's game session.