Rogue Weapon Tricks and Ranged Weapons

[HydraKnight47]

It seems weird to me that the categories of weapons which qualify for sneak attack and the categories of weapons which qualify for weapon critical specialisation for the rogue (via weapon tricks) aren't the same. Rogues can use a ranged weapon to apply sneak attack damage, but can't (according to base rules) access the critical spec of bows, crossbows, or firearms. With the recent changes to crossbows in the remaster, it seems like the critical spec is a pretty core part of their expected damage output. This is made additionally weird by the fact that the arbalest looks like such a good match for a ranged mastermind racket rogue. It's made even more weird in my mind when considering how rogue's combat options just got increased in the remaster - sneak attack and weapon spec on all agile or finesse martial weapons or unarmed attacks.

Taking the archer dedication makes a lot of sense to fill out this particular character concept, since it grants access to crossbow terror and running reload. However, the archer dedication doesn't have a remaster yet. As such, the dedication only grants weapon specialisation to the bow group (RAW). Maybe the text will be changed if/when the combat style archetypes get remastered?

I'm curious to know what others think about this. Did I miss something in my understanding here? Otherwise, is withholding the crit spec of range weapons from rogues balanced?

[Finoan]

I'm guessing that it is intentional. At least mostly. If anything, the fact that you can Sneak Attack with an Arbalest would be what gets put on the chopping block in any errata (From the Ruffian Racket, it seems like Sneak Attack was intended to not work with any weapons with a damage die larger than d8).

For balance considerations I often understand "Agile or Finesse weapons" to mean 'weapons that have relatively lower damage than similar weapons'. Because the first one is explicit in the rules, objectively verifiable, and will be consistent across tables. The second one is very subjective and vague.

[Powers128]

Finoan wrote:

I'm guessing that it is intentional. At least mostly. If anything, the fact that you can Sneak Attack with an Arbalest would be what gets put on the chopping block in any errata (From the Ruffian Racket, it seems like Sneak Attack was intended to not work with any weapons with a damage die larger than d8).

For balance considerations I often understand "Agile or Finesse weapons" to mean 'weapons that have relatively lower damage than similar weapons'. Because the first one is explicit in the rules, objectively verifiable, and will be consistent across tables. The second one is very subjective and vague.

Sneak attacking with ranged weapons of higher than a d8 has always been a thing. Melee limitations on ruffian don't suggest limitations on ranged attacks in general.

[Finoan]

Powers128 wrote:

Sneak attacking with ranged weapons of higher than a d8 has always been a thing.

... Yes. By RAW.

What I am saying is that we shouldn't complain too much about not getting weapon specialization on them too. Or else the RAW may change, and not in the way that you are hoping for.

[Powers128]

Finoan wrote:

Powers128 wrote:

Sneak attacking with ranged weapons of higher than a d8 has always been a thing.

... Yes. By RAW.

What I am saying is that we shouldn't complain too much about not getting weapon specialization on them too. Or else the RAW may change, and not in the way that you are hoping for.

I'm skeptical of a change like that. There doesn't seem to be an implication that it aught to be that way.

[Finoan]

Powers128 wrote:

There doesn't seem to be an implication that it aught to be that way.

You can disagree with me on the implications and analysis. But don't try to convince me that I didn't post it.

[Powers128]

Finoan wrote:

Powers128 wrote:

There doesn't seem to be an implication that it aught to be that way.

You can disagree with me on the implications and analysis. But don't try to convince me that I didn't post it.

Not sure what you mean by that last bit. We can disagree, sure.

[Eaten by Chyzaedu]

I think it seems intentional to me, as someone in a campaign with a bow-using Mastermind Rogue, ranged weapon sneak attack seems to be the least supported of the rogue sneak attack options. It could be just an oversight, though, as there are plenty of those in the rules at large.

We can see what happens to the archetypes such as Mauler, Martial Artist, and Archer in the remaster, but I think if anything they may have their proficiency/critical specialization rules tightened rather than loosened.

If you plan on taking any other bleed damage effects for a rogue, the crossbow specialization may be a bit redundant anyway.

[HydraKnight47]

Finoan wrote:

I'm guessing that it is intentional. At least mostly. If anything, the fact that you can Sneak Attack with an Arbalest would be what gets put on the chopping block in any errata (From the Ruffian Racket, it seems like Sneak Attack was intended to not work with any weapons with a damage die larger than d8).

Sneak attack with a d10 arbalest doesn't feel busted to me in the same way that sneak attack with a d12 greatsword would because of the reload tax associated with crossbows. Maybe I'm wrong on that one.

Eaten by Chyzaedu wrote:

I think it seems intentional to me, as someone in a campaign with a bow-using Mastermind Rogue, ranged weapon sneak attack seems to be the least supported of the rogue sneak attack options. It could be just an oversight, though, as there are plenty of those in the rules at large.

We can see what happens to the archetypes such as Mauler, Martial Artist, and Archer in the remaster, but I think if anything they may have their proficiency/critical specialization rules tightened rather than loosened.

If you plan on taking any other bleed damage effects for a rogue, the crossbow specialization may be a bit redundant anyway.

I'll still be crossing my fingers for more ways to gain weapon crit spec if a PC is willing to invest the feats. I 100% agree with your point about redundancy with other bleed damage effects.

[Squiggit]

Finoan wrote:

Powers128 wrote:

Sneak attacking with ranged weapons of higher than a d8 has always been a thing.

... Yes. By RAW.

That makes it sound like there's something weird or unintended going on here.

[Finoan]

Rogues have been able to Sneak Attack with a d10 heavy crossbow for the exact same amount of time that they haven't been able to get critical weapon specialization effect with it. From the very beginning.

The OP is heavily implying that this is a problem now that crossbows got a different weapon critical specialization effect. One that adds to the damage potential of crossbows - because apparently Rogue needs to be able to do more damage than they currently can dish out.

But there is nothing to indicate that this is actually a problem or that there is going to be any rules change to give Rogue critical specialization with any weapon that they can Sneak Attack with.

So I point out that it could just as easily be errata'd the other way and take away the ability to Sneak Attack with the d10 ranged weapons.

Sure, there is very little justification for that - only the Ruffian Rogue's limit of d8 weapons or less. But at least I have that! And I posted that rationale when I made the statement. Even if its justification of that statement is arguably rather weak, it does exist, and I did post it.

What justification is there for giving Rogue crit spec on weapons that don't have agile or finesse - such as a crossbow?