Elfteiroh |
How are any of the traits would require that?
Attack: This just means this contains an attack roll that use and add MAP.
Cantrip: It's a cantrip.
Concentrate: was previously included in "verbal" component. Now simply means you can't do it while raging.
Manipulate: Was previously included in the "somatic" component. Simply means that you need to be able to freely move. You hold it and direct it physically, or your hands need to be able to "direct" it with precises arm movements or hand signs. (You don't need free hands, but they need to not be tied.)
Plant: You are conjuring plant stuff. So yeah. Making this a plant effect.
Wood: You are conjuring plant stuff from the elemental plane of wood. Making this a "Wood" elemental effect.
Nothing in the traits would tell you you need a vine to exist upfront.
ketrava |
How are any of the traits would require that?
Attack: This just means this contains an attack roll that use and add MAP.
Cantrip: It's a cantrip.
Concentrate: was previously included in "verbal" component. Now simply means you can't do it while raging.
Manipulate: Was previously included in the "somatic" component. Simply means that you need to be able to freely move. You hold it and direct it physically, or your hands need to be able to "direct" it with precises arm movements or hand signs. (You don't need free hands, but they need to not be tied.)
Plant: You are conjuring plant stuff. So yeah. Making this a plant effect.
Wood: You are conjuring plant stuff from the elemental plane of wood. Making this a "Wood" elemental effect.Nothing in the traits would tell you you need a vine to exist upfront.
When I opened it on path builder plant wood and manipulate all indicate that they may apply to a material that is required to be present.
ketrava |
Traits I'm looking at
Plant
Vegetable creatures have the plant trait. They are distinct from normal plants. Magical effects with this trait manipulate or conjure plants or plant matter in some way. Effects that manipulate plants have no effect in an area with no plants.
Wood
Effects with the wood trait conjure or manipulate wood. Those that manipulate wood have no effect in an area without wood. Creatures with this trait consist primarily of wood or have a connection to magical wood.
Manipulate
You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait. Manipulate actions often trigger reactions.
Each has a portion that either states I'm manipulating something or if the material doesn't exist the spell fails
Themetricsystem |
It's the gestures of the spellcasting that relate to the Manipulate Trait, basically, you're waving your body around to cast the spell.
You don't need any vine to "enchant" at all, the description even states that the vine in question appears out of thin air, you don't need to be in a jungle or forest to use it at all, underwater, in jail, outer space, doesn't matter it just works.
HammerJack |
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Traits I'm looking at
Plant
Vegetable creatures have the plant trait. They are distinct from normal plants. Magical effects with this trait manipulate or conjure plants or plant matter in some way. Effects that manipulate plants have no effect in an area with no plants.Wood
Effects with the wood trait conjure or manipulate wood. Those that manipulate wood have no effect in an area without wood. Creatures with this trait consist primarily of wood or have a connection to magical wood.Manipulate
You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait. Manipulate actions often trigger reactions.
Each has a portion that either states I'm manipulating something or if the material doesn't exist the spell fails
All of those traits state that they are only sometimes manipulating something that is there, and other times are not. Note the bold sections.
Finoan |
Yeah, some traits have mechanics written inside them. Other traits are general purpose and used only as tags or identifiers.
My favorite example of the second type is the Gnome trait. It is not saying that a Gnome Hooked Hammer is a member of the Gnome ancestry.
Gortle |
The basic description of the spell says
The basic description is relevant. That is what Paizo says - so stop trying to say otherwise.
effects with this trait manipulate or conjure plants
Two traits can conjure material if it doesn't exist. So no existing wood is not required.
Finoan |
Some other examples and ammunition to use against such GMs:
The Core Rulebook has an entry in spell stat blocks for Material components. Those are needed for casting the spell. If the spell doesn't list any specific Material components, then the spell does not require you to have any particular materials available in order for the spell to be cast and take effect - just a generic Material Components pouch.
Player Core doesn't even have material components any more. Only Loci. And again the spell itself would need to list a Loci component in order for it to be mechanically enforced.
Even spells like Goodberry got changed to Cornucopia and lost the need to have a particular item on hand in order for the spell to be used.
For an example of a spell with a similar trait to Tangle Vine that does 'manipulate' that element instead of 'conjure' it, see Control Water. That one I would rule that it has no effect if cast in an area that has no water. Create Water I would still rule like Tangle Vine - that it is conjuring the water and you can use it to keep the party alive in a desert.