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Could someone help an old RANGER??? I'm looking to build a sorcerer for an upcoming campaign. I'm thinking human, along the lines of undead/dragon bloodline and chaotic Neutral. It's something I have played as a character. ANY help/direction would be greatly appreciated. This would from the PF 1E.
Thanks...
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I do apologize for the vagueness of the content - Like I said, I've never played a magic user before!! LOL
The intent was to go with either some kind of Undead or Dragon themed MU. I think you just came up with my next character! LOL
I really have no idea other than it was a human MU. I thought it would be different being something I've NEVER played b4, a Chaotic Neutral MU that would use poison, call the undead and just be some kind of EVIL. On the other hand a CN MU with a dragon bloodline that spits(throws) something vile at opponents would also be kind of interesting. I've been at this most of the day on pcgen, but I don't think it's coming out correctly??? Anyway - THANKS A TON FOR THE HELP!! Anything else you can think of to add will be AWESOME!!!
While Crossblooded looks cool, I would strongly recommend against it. It looks great when you just look at the bloodline class features, but when you get to making your spell list it's going to cripple you. That -1 spell known per level is way harsher than it sounds, since it's felt most strongly at your highest spell levels where you only have 1 or 2 spells known in the first place. In practice, you won't actually be able to take all the thematic spells you're going to want to fulfill both the dragon and undead sides of your concept.
Crossblooded really only works well on metamagic builds that primarily are just using their higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells. It's a really min-maxy archetype that is about tricking out a couple of really powerful spells at the cost of having very few options. Definitely not what I'd recommend for someone's first foray into Sorcerer.
If you want to go for the Draconic/Undead theme, you don't actually need the Undead bloodline since nothing stops you from just taking those necromancy spells on a Draconic bloodline Sorcerer. For instance, here's a spell list for an 11th level Sorcerer with Draconic Bloodline that includes some creepy necromancy options:
5th - Undead Anatomy II, Spell Resistance, Waves of Fatigue
4th - Animate Dead, Fear, Shadow Conjuration, Beast Shape II, Dimension Door, Black Tentancles
3rd - Fireball, Fly, Undead Anatomy I, Haste, Heroism, Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud
2nd - Scorching Ray, Resist Energy, Command Undead, Mirror Image, False Life, Invisibility, See Invisibility
1st - Grease, Enlarge Person, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Shield, Stone Shield, Protection from Evil, Silent Image
We utilize the human sorcerer favored class bonus to get 2 additional spells known at 1st-4th level. This build will utilize polymorph effects, so invest a decent amount into strength. It has some good defensive spells to stay alive even in melee, but has a mix of offensive, support, and utility spells to round it out. However, it also has control over the dead and a lot of creepier spells mixed in there. If you'd rather stay out of melee, you can easily drop the polymorph spells for other options.
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Thanks for all the advice! Now I have to look over and digest all the information received. Really wasn't thinking bout doing a Cross blooded MU, seems kind of difficult. It was either some kind of undead MU like Sauron or a dragon themed MU. I honestly don't have much of a clue here. Most MU's that I have accompanied with have all been pretty much vanilla flavored. But I can say that I have my work cut out for me now and definitely some directions to look into, AWESOME!!.
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If you are a playing a sorcerer there are a couple things to keep in mind. One your character is going horrible at physical combat. Your BAB is the worst in the game and will probably not have a very good STR. As a sorcerer you want to maximize your CHA. CHA sets the DC for your spells and many bloodline abilities are based off it. It also gives you extra spells per day. After CHA you are going to want a decent DEX and CON. You have the worst HP in the game and cannot wear any armor, and have poor Fort and Reflex saves. Those stats boost your weak saves, give you extra HP and boost your weak saves. That does not leave a lot of room for other stats.
When choosing a bloodline, look at the bloodline abilities and bloodline spells. Make sure that the majority of these are useful. A bloodline that sounds cool but does not give useful spells or abilities should be avoided.
The Draconic bloodline gives mostly defensives spells and has a lot of similar spells. The claws may seem cool, but as I pointed out a sorcerer is not good at physical combat. To take advantage of your bloodline arcana you need to focus on a single element. This can cause problems when your opponents are immune or resistant to that element. The breath weapon is good but is very limited in its uses. The dragon resistances and flight are very good. Overall, this bloodline is somewhat restricted.
The undead bloodline has a better bloodline spells. The bloodline arcana requires you to choose mind affecting spells or it is useless. With the limited number of spells a sorcerer gets this can be a problem. Grave touch is a touch attack, so your lower BAB is not as important. The other bloodline abilities are fairly decent.
If you want to play an undead themed sorcerer the ghoul bloodline looks to be better. The bloodline arcana heals you when you deal damage with a necromancy spell. The claws can also paralyze the target. You still have the problem of needing to hit, but the potential to paralyze the target means if you do hit the target is likely to be out of the combat. If you use this vs targets with a low AC, you can probably hit. This works well for taking out other arcane caster that does not wear armor. Leathery skin gives you a natural armor bonus which is always useful. Gaining Haste for multiple rounds per day is also incredibly useful. Earth crawler gives you a way to escape dangerous situations with a bit of healing thrown in.
Thanks for all the advice! Now I have to look over and digest all the information received. Really wasn't thinking bout doing a Cross blooded MU, seems kind of difficult. It was either some kind of undead MU like Sauron or a dragon themed MU. I honestly don't have much of a clue here. Most MU's that I have accompanied with have all been pretty much vanilla flavored. But I can say that I have my work cut out for me now and definitely some directions to look into, AWESOME!!.
The most important thing when building a Sorcerer is your list of spells known. Bloodlines are cool, but what spells you pick are far more important for defining your Sorcerer's theme and how it will feel to play. These are the main tools in your toolkit, the ways you will approach combat and problem-solving in general.
I'd suggest starting by just looking at the Sorcerer spell list and picking out a thematic lineup of spells that you'd like your Sorcerer to know. Every other decision really takes back seat to that spell list, and if you know what spells you want then the rest isn't too hard.
This can be a problem for low-level Sorcerers, as they get very few spells known. At 2nd level, for instance, you get a total of... two spells. That's not a lot to work with to make your Sorcerer feel unique. I find that Sorcerers really only start to flesh out and feel complete around 5th level, when you'll have a fairly decent number of spells.
One thing to keep in mind is that the human Sorcerer favored class bonus gives you +1 spell known, which must be at least 1 level below the maximum you can cast. So at level 4 and 5 this gives you an extra 1st level spell, at level 6 and 7 it gives you an extra 2nd level spell, at levels 8 and 9 it gives you an extra 3rd level spell, and so on and so forth. This is a great option, and I'd also note that you can qualify for it as a half-elf or half-orc, and there are alternative racial traits that allow other races to count as humans.
If you are a playing a sorcerer there are a couple things to keep in mind. One your character is going horrible at physical combat. Your BAB is the worst in the game and will probably not have a very good STR.
You have to specifically build for it if you want to do physical combat, but if you do build around it Sorcerers can actually be very good at it. That means investing in strength, magical items, and perhaps considering Dragon Disciple or Eldritch Knight prestige classes. You can use the Prestigious Spellcaster feat to buy back the lost spellcasting progression.
A polymorph Sorcerer can easily track the green target numbers in the bench-pressing guidelines, which is perfectly acceptable when you're also a full caster and will have other tactics at your disposal.
The Draconic bloodline gives mostly defensives spells and has a lot of similar spells. The claws may seem cool, but as I pointed out a sorcerer is not good at physical combat.
The claws are pretty garbage even for melee Sorcerers. A melee Sorcerer is going to know polymorph spells and will use those instead of their claws. It's almost always better to just take a bloodline mutation instead. Blood Havoc is very good.
Even when building for physical combat a sorcerer is never going to be very good at it. If you put enough effort into it, you can get to the point where you are not bad at it. The only real way for a sorcerer to become very good at physical combat is if they have the spell Transformation. But even then, it takes them a few rounds of prep before they are ready to fight.
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I've have been looking at this information like a Sorcerer writing spells in his book!! LMAO! I'm still no closer to figuring out what path to take - but I do know that I won't be the 'up front in your face guy"... I figured out that's why I've been either a ranger or barbarian this whole time - what spells, when do they work, how do they work, who do they work on, do I have the materials to make it work, hopefully the idiot barbarian doesn't drop his sword or the ranger miss his mark on this beast so I can concentrate on this spell.....
The class guides at ZG has also shed some light on the remarkable journey.
Considering undead or draconic. Draconic tends to go more damage oriented, and has some compatible options like dragon disciple. I've never tried the undead bloodline, but reading it just makes me think the bones oracle would do this better.
As a wizard and also as a cleric, I used summon monster I a lot. But not at 1st level. It’s a full round action to cast and at 1st level it only lasts a round. If I’m spending a full round to cast, I want some longevity out of it.
I've have been looking at this information like a Sorcerer writing spells in his book!! LMAO! I'm still no closer to figuring out what path to take - but I do know that I won't be the 'up front in your face guy"... I figured out that's why I've been either a ranger or barbarian this whole time - what spells, when do they work, how do they work, who do they work on, do I have the materials to make it work, hopefully the idiot barbarian doesn't drop his sword or the ranger miss his mark on this beast so I can concentrate on this spell.....
The class guides at ZG has also shed some light on the remarkable journey.
My recommendation? Go Draconic since you seem to be leaning that way. Pick a kind of dragon that has a fire damage breath weapon. Take the Blood Havoc option at 1st level, as this replaces your claws (which you won't be using) with a damage bonus to your spells. Take Spell Focus (Evocation) and Spell Specialization (Burning Hands).
With all these buffs to your fire spells, your burning hands will deal 3d4+6 damage. You do need to get pretty close to cast this, but it will fry enemies very nicely. For your second spell at 1st level, I'm going to recommend two options. The first is Grease, which is a nice option to trip up enemies and gives you something with a little more range. The second option is Silent Image, which allows you to create illusions. I think this is a really nice option that epitomizes the flexibility and creativity afforded by being a spellcaster. Anything you can imagine, you can make an illusion of it.
As you gain levels, other good spells might include:
* Shield: as a Draconic Sorcerer you will automatically learn Mage Armor at 3rd level. Stacking it with Shield will give you some pretty decent AC.
* Protection from Evil: this can really help against evil magic and evil creatures, and is always a good spell option to know.
* Obscuring Mist: a great defensive option for hiding or creating diversion. This will create a cloud of fog around you. Ranged attackers basically can't shoot into it, and melee attackers fumble around to find their targets. It can be double-edged, but if you want to buy some time it's great.
* Ears of the City: having ways of magically gathering information is another thing spellcasters can be very good at. Ears of the City is by far the best low-level option for magical information gathering. It only works in urban areas, but it allows you to ask multiple questions and get useful answers. It's great for Sorcerers since you can use Diplomacy checks to ask those questions, and Sorcerers naturally have great Charisma.
* Magic Missile: it deals damage. It's not a lot of damage, but there are very few ways of stopping it so it's really reliable. It's a great spell for Sorcerers to have and guarantees you will always have a fallback.
* Enlarge Person: is there a melee attacker in your party who would appreciate hitting harder and with longer reach? This is a pretty good buff spell.
At 2nd level, consider these spells:
* Scorching Ray: this is a great fire spell that benefits from the fire-boosting you're already using, and with more range than Burning Hands.
* Invisibility: I've seen this spell save PC's and NPC's lives on so many occasions. Honestly, I think any Sorcerer who doesn't learn it is being foolish.
* Mirror Image: one of the best defensive spells in the game, and scales really well at higher levels.
* Web: a great way for snaring enemies; this can trap enemies and prevent them from fighting, and can both prevent retreats and prevent pursuits. It's particularly great against flying enemies, as you can cast it 10 feet in the air so those on the ground are unaffected but everyone flying is caught. It doesn't necessarily mesh well with fire, but oftentimes this doesn't matter.
* Create Pit: another great combat spell, this one can easily trap enemies and block their approach. This can work really well if you have ranged attackers in the party, as unlike Web it doesn't block their sight of the other side so they can attack enemies that are cut off by the pit.
* Glitterdust: it can reveal invisible enemies and blind enemies in its area of effect. This is a great spell that covers multiple roles.
* Command Undead: if you want to use undead minions, this is a superb spell. If you encounter any mindless undead, you cast this on them and they're now your minion for the next few days. It's a bit risky to use against intelligent undead, though.
3rd:
* Fireball: I shouldn't need to explain why this is a top priority pick for a Sorcerer using fire damage.
* Haste: best buff spell in the game. Your allies will love you.
* Dispel Magic: being able to remove irritating spells can be really good. Wizards often run into the problem of failing the Dispel check and not having a second copy prepared, but as a Sorcerer you can cast spontaneously and don't have to worry about that. Great spell to have at your fingertips.
* Protection from Energy: an improved version of Resist Energy, and can be especially helpful for dealing with friendly-fire. Prebuff the Fighter, have them get surrounded, and then unload a Fireball on top of them.
* Stinking Cloud: this is a great way to incapacitate large numbers of enemies. Nauseated enemies are basically unable to attack, and will remain nauseated for some time after leaving the cloud.
Persistent Spell is a metamagic feat. When you take the feat, it grants you to option of modifying your spells to improve them at the cost of increasing the spell slots they consume. Persistent spell is a +2 metamagic, meaning it adds +2 to the spell slot requirement. If you're casting Charm Person (normally a 1st level spell) then it requires a 3rd level spell slot to be cast with Persistent Spell. It's still counted as a 1st level spell for all other purposes, including DC, so in practice the DC will be 2 points lower than a normal 3rd level spell. So Persistent spell isn't quite as good as you thought, but it's still a very solid choice.
When using metamagic spontaneously (which is what Sorcerers do, you are a spontaneous spellcaster) the casting time also increases to a full round action. This can be problematic in some circumstances, as Sorcerers and Wizards often use their move action to "preload" for the next turn. For instance if you intend to use a scroll or wand on your next turn, you will use your move action to equip it so it's ready. Losing your move action can throw off your tempo in a lot of situations. And if you actually do need to move (you're standing in a dangerous place) this severely limits what you can do for metamagic this turn.
There is another way to use metamagic, though, and that's with metamagic rods. A Rod of Persistent Spell can be used 3 times per day to apply the Persistent Spell Metamagic without increasing the spell level or the casting time. However, it is quite expensive. Also keep in mind you do need to have the rod equipped in order to use it, and you also need a free hand to provide the somatic components of your spells, so you cannot be holding anything else while using a metamagic rod. So again it limits your ability to use other items like wands or scrolls.
Overall, Persistent Spell is a good option for spells that are negated with a successful saving throw, such as Charm Person. For damage-dealing spells that deal half damage on a successful saving throw, however, there are better options. The Empowered metamagic option is usually a better choice for these kinds of spells. The idea of combining Persistent Spell with Dazing Spell is a good one, but Dazing Spell has a +3 spell level cost. So combined they are increasing the spell level cost by +5. This means that a Persistent Dazing Fireball uses an 8th level spell slot! This is a very nice combo, but it's only available to very high-level characters. If you're playing through a 1-20 campaign it's not going to be an option for most of your career.
There are a couple ways of reducing the cost of metamagic. There is the Magical Lineage trait and the wayang shadowhunter trait. These allow you to select 1 spell of your choice, and whenever you cast that spell you reduce the cost of metamagic by 1. Now, there is a technical argument that you can apply both these traits to the same spell and they will stack with each other, as they are not specifically called out as trait bonuses or even as a "bonus" at all. However, the general rule for traits is crystal clear that traits with the same effect do not stack, and in my view this general rule is more than sufficient to cover this situation. So my own view is that they don't stack, but there are enough people who do believe they stack that it merits mention. If you intend to use both, definitely talk to your GM first.
Secondly, there is the Spell Perfection feat that allows you to select one spell and whenever you cast it you can apply one Metamagic feat of your choice without increasing the spell level. This is commonly used with Quicken metamagic, as it guarantees a spellcaster always has a useful swift action spell to cast. However, it requires you to be 15th level or higher to take the feat so it doesn't come into play until very high levels.
Overall, these are good options, but the earliest you'd want to consider the Persistent spell feat is 7th level and the full Persistent/Dazing spell combo you're looking at will only be practical at 15th level with Spell Perfection.
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Thank you very much for the information. I was looking on zenith at all the information there, Boy it's a lot!! No wonder I've been a Ranger all these years! If your poor Sorc isn't in the air if there on the ground or underground if they're in the air or in the sea if they're on land or land if they're on sea- it's going to be very difficult for them to survive!! LOL. I'm still tinkering with the character and all i have so far is a Draconic, non-front line character.
Arcane casters are quite vulnerable in a conventional sense. You can't use armor, Mage Armor doesn't have any scaling mechanism so it falls behind the curve really badly, you can't justify spending heavily on ring of protection and amulet of natural armor (since your AC will be mediocre even with them, and you really don't want to be getting attacked in the first place), and your CMD is going to be terrible. Intelligence and Charisma are also the only ability scores in the game that don't boost your defenses in any way; every other ability score boosts at least one of your AC, saves, or CMD. So most of your point buy is going to an ability score that does nothing for your defenses. And on top of that you have d6 hit dice.
On the other hand, you do get a lot of really powerful defensive spells like Mirror Image or Emergency Force Sphere that can really help with your defenses. And enemies can't exactly reach you easily; you should be in the back of the party and you can take cover between turns so you're hard to hit with ranged attacks. Most spells have at least decent range (by 10th level, a "close range" spell is 50 ft range, which for most indoors combat is basically the whole battlefield). At higher levels there are powerful magical items that can really help with your defenses. Ring of Freedom of Movement is expensive, but it costs less than a Ring of Protection +5 and gives total immunity to being grappled.
If you are really concerned and want a good AC, then one option is to multiclass 1 level in Unchained Monk with the Scaled Fist archetype. This allows you to add your Charisma bonus to AC and CMD. However, this is typically used more for melee front-liner Sorcerer builds that will be entering the Dragon Disciple prestige class, which is not what you're going for here.
I'd recommend just accepting that defenses are going to be your weak spot. When your spells incapacitate or kill enemies if they fail their saving throws, "hit them before they hit me" is a very valid combat strategy.
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ALrighty, after combing through all this information and the books that go along with it, I have a question???? When the spell description says "spell uses up a spell slot ___ levels higher than the spells actual level", what in the world does that mean? My 4th lvl caster trying to cast a 4th lvl spell can't because it's a 7th lvl spell now??? Sorry, but I am confused......
A 4th level caster cannot cast a 4th level spell. Each class that can cast spells has a chart that gives the level of spells you can cast at each level. You find your level on the chart and read across to find out how many of each spell level you can cast per day. Looking at the 4th level sorcerer it shows they get 6 0 level spells, 3 1st level spells and 1 2nd level spell. If there is a – on the chart that means you are not able to cast spells of that level yet. If you have a high enough casting stat (CHA for sorcerer) you gain extra spells of the levels, you can cast. So, if your sorcerer has an 18 CHA he will gain an extra 1st and 2nd level spell. He does not gain the extra 3rd and 4th level spells because he cannot cast spells of that level yet. So, the final number of spells the 4th level sorcerer can cast is 6 0 level spells, 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells.
Some things like metamagic feats can increase the level of the spell. If that is the case, you have to have a spell slot of the new level in order to cast it. For example, extend spell is a feat that doubles the duration of the spell, but increase the spells level by one. So, an extended mage armor would be considered a 2nd level spell for the purpose of what spell slot it uses, but its duration would be 2 hour per caster level instead of 1 per caster level. An extended invisibility would be considered a 3rd level spell. Since a 4th level sorcerer does not have a 3rd level spell slot, they would not be able to cast the extended invisibility.
ALrighty, after combing through all this information and the books that go along with it, I have a question???? When the spell description says "spell uses up a spell slot ___ levels higher than the spells actual level", what in the world does that mean? My 4th lvl caster trying to cast a 4th lvl spell can't because it's a 7th lvl spell now??? Sorry, but I am confused......
Spellcasters in Pathfinder work by using spell slots. In order to cast a spell, you must expend a spell slot. Your spell slots refresh every day, and can be thought of as how many spells per day you get. As a Sorcerer, you do not need to prepare spells ahead of time, you just expend the spell slots when you want to cast.
Every spell has a level associated with it. As examples, Magic Missile is a 1st level spell, Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and Fireball is a 3rd level spell. In order to cast these spells, you must expend a spell slot of equal or higher level to the spell you wish to cast. So a 3rd level spell slot can be used to cast Fireball, Invisibility, or Magic Missile, but a 1st level spell slot could only cast 1st level spells like Magic Missile.
When you use a metamagic such as Empowered Spell, it causes the spell to use a higher level spell slot. In the case of Empowered Spell, it uses up a slot 2 levels higher than the spell's actual level. So Magic Missile ordinarily requires a 1st level spell slot, but if you wish to cast it with the Empowered Spell metamagic you must expend a 3rd level spell slot.
The number of spell slots you get is based on your Sorcerer class level and your Charisma modifier. Consult your class progression table and the ability score table to determine how many you get.
So for instance, suppose you're a 4th level Sorcerer with 20 Charisma. Reading the class table for 4th level we can see you get 3 2nd level spell slots and 6 1st level spell slot per day. Reading the ability score table, we see that you get +1 2nd level spell slot and +2 1st level spell slots. This means you have a total of 4 2nd level and 8 1st level spell slots per day as a 4th level Sorcerer. You will get access to 3rd level spell slots starting at the 6th Sorcerer level, and 4th level spell slots starting at the 8th Sorcerer level.
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OK..... This is what I have so far.... A Draconic spell caster(bronze) with the spells 0: Daze, Det Mag, light, Op/Close, red mag. 1: Grease, Mage Arm.
Feats;(both Left) empower spell, eschew materials, impr Int, mag line.
Traits; Mag line(teleport(greater)), tactician.
The reasoning behind most(all) of the decisions is like it was mentioned, defend slowly or die fast. Hopefully I picked the former!!!.
The first "exercise" went modestly well. I got grease off the 1st 2 attempts (YEAH!!beginner's luck!!!) of course, no good deed goes unpunished - Not only did I cause trouble for the bad guys, but our cleric and Barbarian both managed to join in on the fun. After several rounds of "slip sliding away" our boys managed to get the job done. The next 2 encounters went better - our boys didn't RUSH into the fray right away!! it was quite testing for me, we ran into 4 goblin shamans who kept me shucking and jiving around the battlefield, so my last spells did not mature. But it was fun and I look forward to our next meeting.
You can also try to grease the enemy weapon. Might disarm them. Also sometimes you gotta dismiss a spell.