Double Slice and Hardness


Rules Discussion


how Double Slice and Hardness interact. Is Hardness Triggered only 1 time or 2 times?
I heard that the hardness comes at the end of the damage queue and therefore the hardness is applied only 1 time.
-------
1Roll the dice indicated by the weapon, unarmed attack, or spell, and apply the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply to the result of the roll.
2Determine the damage type.
3Apply the target’s immunities, weaknesses, and resistances to the damage.
4If any damage remains, reduce the target’s Hit Points by that amount.

Damage
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=335
---------
Hardness
Source Core Rulebook pg. 277 4.0
Whenever a shield takes damage, the amount of damage it takes is reduced by this amount. This number is particularly relevant for shields because of the Shield Block feat. The rules for Hardness appear in Item Damage.
------------
Double Slice
Requirements You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand.
You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty. Both Strikes must have the same target. If the second Strike is made with a weapon that doesn't have the agile trait, it takes a –2 penalty.

If both attacks hit, combine their damage, and then add any other applicable effects from both weapons. You add any precision damage only once, to the attack of your choice. Combine the damage from both Strikes and apply resistances and weaknesses only once. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty.
------


1 person marked this as a favorite.

RAW shield hardness would trigger off both attacks and then you would combine what is left.

RAI I am almost certain you are meant to treat it like a resistance in a scenario like this.


Kosta??? wrote:

Double Slice

Requirements You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand.
You lash out at your foe with both weapons. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty. Both Strikes must have the same target. If the second Strike is made with a weapon that doesn't have the agile trait, it takes a –2 penalty.

If both attacks hit, combine their damage, and then add any other applicable effects from both weapons. You add any precision damage only once, to the attack of your choice. Combine the damage from both Strikes and apply resistances and weaknesses only once. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty.
------


Shield Hardness is not a resistance. It's a damage prevention effect of the Shield Block Reaction that modifies the last step of damage rules that changes the "After applying the target’s immunities, resistances, and weaknesses to the damage, whatever damage is left reduces the target’s Hit Points on a 1-to-1 basis." to something like "After applying the target’s immunities, resistances, and weaknesses to the damage, whatever damage is left reduces the target’s Hit Points on a 1-to-1 basis. But the target shield will prevent target from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness. Target and its shield each take any remaining damage, possibly breaking or destroying the shield" (this is a merge made by myself of both step 4 damage rule and shield block descriptions to make clear how it works).

Double Slice states:

Double Slice wrote:
If both attacks hit, combine their damage, and then add any other applicable effects from both weapons. You add any precision damage only once, to the attack of your choice. Combine the damage from both Strikes and apply resistances and weaknesses only once. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty.

Due this happens before the Shield Block is triggered, after all the damage is combined and resolved and you know how much the char will take but before apply the damage to it. When you choose to trigger the Shield Block you will block this damage value post-processed by the Double Slice feat. So there's no 2 instances of damage only one combined instance to be reduced.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, shield block happens very late in the damage sequence, after the damage has already been merged for processing weaknesses and resistances. At that point it makes no sense to split it up again into separate pools to use shield block against one or the other or both.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Yeah, shield block happens very late in the damage sequence, after the damage has already been merged for processing weaknesses and resistances. At that point it makes no sense to split it up again into separate pools to use shield block against one or the other or both.

Does this work on Twin Takedown and Flurry of Blows as well?

I was wondering if this breaks through the monster's hardness or does the monster's hardness apply to both punches?

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

They should all work the same.

Keep in mind that hardness is quite rare on monsters. Hardness is something objects have, monsters would usually have resistance. There is one monster that does have hardness that you run into in quite a few adventures, and that's the Animated Object. But you can imagine why that one has hardness.

You can sort of see behind the curtain that the devs were trying to balance all these abilities. They all focus on characters that hit often, for smaller amounts of damage. As compared to someone with for example a greatsword or a polearm that hits fewer times, but for more damage at once. For both of those kinds of characters, weakness and resistance should matter, but not be too good or too awful. So if you hit more often, you don't get to trigger weakness more often; but you also don't get punished by resistance more often.

So you can draw that RAI forward to hardness: it makes sense that for hardness they'd want things to work the same.

Also of course, hardness is done all the way at the end of the damage process, after the damage had already been merged. It would be extra work to un-merge it for hardness, and what would be the point of doing so? Punish some classes for no reason?

Scarab Sages

Isn’t the more important question for shield block whether it can apply to both attacks, or if you have to pick one to block? You wouldn’t normally be able to block two attacks without quick shield block or something similar letting you use two reactions. My take here would be that you apply the hardness once against whichever attack you pick, and it can only reduce the damage from that attack. If you use two reactions, you could block both, and hardness would apply twice (once against each attack).

Now, if it’s an enemy with hardness, I would go with it applying once, since double slice seems to be meant to let you overcome the damage reduction.


It's a good question. IMO I would allow the player to choose. Block the both attacks with a sum of the damage may risky the shield durability while choose only one will save the shield HP but probably will give more damage to you.

But RAW you would only trigger the reaction vs only one of the 2 Strikes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ascalaphus wrote:
Yeah, shield block happens very late in the damage sequence, after the damage has already been merged for processing weaknesses and resistances. At that point it makes no sense to split it up again into separate pools to use shield block against one or the other or both.

Paizo have not provided a tight damage procedure. The definitions are just not precise. Damage Type is complex even though the damage procedure is written for a singular damage type. Nothing is said about additional damage. It is all a little fuzzy.

I don't think you can infer the sequence precisely from the trigger condition for Shield block you would take damage from a physical attack is IMO also satisfied by a successful hit at the start of the damage procedure, as well as step 4 of the damage procedure.

I think "unclear it is GM's choice" is the best answer to the original question.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Double Slice and Hardness All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.