Anyone played a remastered witch yet? I just started one in Kingmaker. Human changeling, Level 4 Starless Shadow, free archetype for Familiar Master, shadow familiar. I took Cackle, Patron's Puppet, and Needle of Vengeance. It's been interesting so far. The familiar has been a really effective tank thanks to the shadow's damage resistance to everything, even without toughness. While it can't take a lot of damage, sending it out ahead of the party tends to bait a lot of damage that might put a party member on the back foot otherwise.
But moving it around plays havoc with my action economy, and it is hard to switch between multiple targets when I need to move my familiar and reapply hexes. Patron's puppet and Cackle help, but I run out of focus points quick with them and they also restrict my other hex actions (which are generally what I'd be using with the action I saved.) Independent will help at level 6, but I'm still a little unsure what I want to do with my focus points long term. I'm pretty reliant on my slots for burst damage right now, so psychic dedication for Ignition or TKP are appealing. But I burning through non-hex focus points will make it harder to activate Familiar of Stalking Night.
I do really like Familiar Conduit even though it further strains my action economy. Being able to zorch stuff from afar is nice for keeping the aggro away from the back line. And I'm thinking of retraining into Caludron just before level 8 because potions of haste are swell.
What have y'all been doing with your witches? How have you been juggling the familiar, hexes, and focus points? What staff y'all rocking?
You seem to already know how critical Independent is, so no worries. That alone will help amazingly.
However, when looking at the cost that goes into a proper shadow familiar, it is rather steep. Especially early, before the free +familiar abilities start to accumulate.
I just planned out a Starless Shadow Witch myself, and it seems like a fun time.
Have you tried out Blur on the familiar? There are loads of ways to get it to fit it's trigger condition, but that one seems rather simple and uncomplicated.
The restrictions on Haste are a little disappointing for a Witch, as it's kinda likely you'll have rounds without moving or attacking. Still amazing to get free Haste potions for your party though.
If your familiar could still use some help staying alive, I'm pretty sure you can rub that fast healing oil on them, which is nice enough to just trigger when struck.
My sketched Witch is building around the Witch's Armaments (bite). High INT & STR, and +1 DEX. Human for Shield Block at L1, enabling Bastion Dedication at 2 for the Reaction to get +2 AC and not tax my actions to Raise. Just has to suffer stay alive until L5 and medium armor, after that it should be okay. I think.
Just found the Cloaker summon's willing envelop line when glancing through the Occult-only spells. Share damage with the Cloaker 50/50, but you are restrained. It seems ridiculous, but sustaining a spell (and a few other key spells, like Protect Companion) are verbal-only, no manipulate.
If you hit L9 and get access to that summon, I'm curious enough to ask you consider summoning a Cloaker, setting up another sustained spell or two, then self-enveloping. It sounds hilarious and a useful way to add a huge amount to the Witch or familiar's HP pool. Plus you get to watch the creature waddle on its flaps while it carries you around and whips at things with its tail stinger.
I'm just realizing that the familiar ability of Starless Shadow is a bit awkward because you want the familiar to be concealed before casting a hex to cause frightened, but the granted hex cantrip is precisely what will (potentially) make it concealed to the enemy, right after you needed it. And I think sinking actions or even spells into making the familiar pre-concealed would be a pretty steep price to pay for the effect (cannot help but compare Dirge of Doom).
You can actually choose whether the new familiar abilities trigger before or after the effect of the hex. So you can absolutely cast your cantrip on a target that's adjacent to your familiar ans immediately make the target dazzled and frightened.
Player Core says:
Familiar Ability One of your familiar’s two bonus abilities is always the one listed here, a mark of your patron’s indelible influence. The benefit can occur only once per round when you Cast or Sustain a hex, and you can choose whether it occurs before or after the effects of Casting or Sustaining the hex.
Anyone played a remastered witch yet?
Technically, yes, I play a level 5 Wild Witch in Sky King's Tomb. I don't cast Hexes in combat, so I'm not sure my point of view will help you. My Familiar has a breath attack, though, so I put it on my poney animal companion so it moves for free and as such I only need to pay one action for it to breath.
Yeah, the shadow familiar cost was really high, but unfortunately the flavor was too good to pass up. I'd be really curious to try another witch out with more flexibility on the familiar. I considered a fairie dragon resentment build and a very spinner of Fates build, but the former didn't fit the campaign thematically and the latter just didn't hook me as well narratively.
The best part about seeing such good flavor options?
You can take and use every bit of flavor it has, just not the mechanical abilities, ha ha.
If I get the chance to play that Witch after another campaign ends, they miiiight upgrade to the shadow familiar eventually, but you can bet your bottom dollar they are going to cosmetically be much the same.
The best part about seeing such good flavor options?
You can take and use every bit of flavor it has, just not the mechanical abilities, ha ha.
If I get the chance to play that Witch after another campaign ends, they miiiight upgrade to the shadow familiar eventually, but you can bet your bottom dollar they are going to cosmetically be much the same.
I've never been a fan of reflavoring that much. It is a bit irrational, but I'm a bit of a purist even though I regularly bend rules for cool. I like the pairing of flavor and mechanics to remain meaningful.
Yeah, the Cloaker summon might make more sense to use upon the familiar. The Cloaker gets dim light concealment itself for a possible miss chance, and I think it's safe to say that an enveloped familiar is at least concealed as well (for it's trigger condition).
The Cloaker AC is 4 lower than my PC preview at L9, but the +to hit is on par (for a caster) without runes. With a Bless up, that Cloaker actually ought to be landing some damage.
With Independent, you could have the Cloaker body block for the familiar without enveloping it. The Tiny familiar should have an easy time hiding from foes above the Large Cloaker, and with that LoS blocked, that is also the concealed or better requirement for the familiar's Fear.
__________________
My general approach is that nothing's free, as well as prevention being better than reaction, so I'm alright with 1 bit of 1st round setup / prep to get the familiar online.
A single R2 Blur spell at combat start to get 20% miss + Fear effect for the familiar sounds good enough on paper to me to use as a baseline for comparison with other options.
The upgrade to a (sustained) Cloaker is a much bigger question mark though, I will admit.
________
#1 thing that seems to be missing from the Witch class is a spellshape or other way to modify a normal listed spell and get it classified as a Hex for the sustain triggers.
That would give the Witch so many more options without really breaking the balance at all.
Veil of Dreams looks to be a rather evergreen Hex, but I imagine having only 1 or 2 options of sustain hexes outside the single cantrip is rather constraining.
Oh nice, I missed that. That makes a lot of sense, also with Patron's Puppet (so it can zoom into position and do its thing immediately).It's a good setup tool but I'm sad because Patron's Puppet being hex prevents you from using it in the same turn with Shroud of Night
Yeah, that's a big problem. :(
Does the effect of Patron's Puppet end after giving the command or after the Familar comletes its actions? If it's the latter, making the companion skilled in deception would allow it to Create a Doversion to become hidden.
Does the effect of Patron's Puppet end after giving the command or after the Familar comletes its actions? If it's the latter, making the companion skilled in deception would allow it to Create a Doversion to become hidden.
You can probably also use Hide. I picked the Shadow Familiar because it becomes a pretty sure thing you can try, but a tiny creature could probably use most creatures as cover.
How are you hidden to an adjacent creature?
How are you hidden to an adjacent creature?
Slink In Shadows
Source Secrets of Magic pg. 229 1.1The shadow familiar can Hide or end its Sneak in a creature's or object's shadow.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How are you hidden to an adjacent creature?
Tiny creatures share space with others.
You should / ought to be able to have your familiar use Hide behind any ally Medium creature while sharing its space from any foe.
The catch is that it might be only able to Hide from 1 at a time, flying/climbing around the ally like a squirrel circling a tree to break LoS.
Man, that "adjacent" phrasing on the Starless Shadow is, honestly, a bit absurd of a danger-close compared to some of the others getting 15ft, but it is what it is.
Some cheese like a Cloaker might be the only way to actually get the familiar adjacent without getting directly hit.
________________
I will say the big question mark is if the Feared foe is allowed to immediately know that something is cursing them and where it is, or if it's rather vague unknown Fear and the foe needs to Seek.
The text directly says Undetected, which carries some implication that the mini-curse does not interrupt the condition, but it does not at all spell it out either way.
Unfortunately, I think the mini-curse counts as a hostile action, but idk.
Also unfortunately, Absorb Familiar says your familiar can't act except to exit the effect, so that likely means that it cannot do the mini-curse when absorbed. It would be neat if foes needed to spot and then attack the absorbed familiar to stop the fear.
I'm thinking about starting combat with the familiar in a pot-kettle until detected / Seeked, as that seems to be the most RaW friendly way to have the familiar be undetected and on my person.
It is probably both and hostility, but it seems pretty obvious that using it shouldn't break stealth. Technically, it is a GM's discretion thing, but come on.
Also, Illusory Creature absolutely slaps on a witch. It was already one of the best spells in the game, but Cackle making sustaining it free so amazing. I think. It even got a minor remastered damage buff at low levels. I dealt 60 damage to a troll by exploiting its weakness. And then in a group fight I used it to knock out one dire wolf and hold another at day for a round. A creature that should have attacked me round 1 instead moved up to the illusion and missed twice. It landed a hit on the next round, but then it incurred map before closing and using its last action to strike.
Man, illusions rock now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is probably both and hostility, but it seems pretty obvious that using it shouldn't break stealth. Technically, it is a GM's discretion thing, but come on.
Also, Illusory Creature absolutely slaps on a witch. It was already one of the best spells in the game, but Cackle making sustaining it free so amazing. I think. It even got a minor remastered damage buff at low levels. I dealt 60 damage to a troll by exploiting its weakness. And then in a group fight I used it to knock out one dire wolf and hold another at day for a round. A creature that should have attacked me round 1 instead moved up to the illusion and missed twice. It landed a hit on the next round, but then it incurred map before closing and using its last action to strike.
Man, illusions rock now.
Player Core illusory creature can't deactivate regeneration, and might not even trigger other abilitues beneficial to the PCs.
Cackle to Sustain is nice but is also limited to a few times per encounter, and has the high opportunity cost of not being able to use all of your other amazing focus abilities.
It's good, but hardly phenomenal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is probably both and hostility, but it seems pretty obvious that using it shouldn't break stealth. Technically, it is a GM's discretion thing, but come on.
Also, Illusory Creature absolutely slaps on a witch. It was already one of the best spells in the game, but Cackle making sustaining it free so amazing. I think. It even got a minor remastered damage buff at low levels. I dealt 60 damage to a troll by exploiting its weakness. And then in a group fight I used it to knock out one dire wolf and hold another at day for a round. A creature that should have attacked me round 1 instead moved up to the illusion and missed twice. It landed a hit on the next round, but then it incurred map before closing and using its last action to strike.
Man, illusions rock now.
Player Core illusory creature can't deactivate regeneration, and might not even trigger other abilitues beneficial to the PCs.
Cackle to Sustain is nice but is also limited to a few times per encounter, and has the high opportunity cost of not being able to use all of your other amazing focus abilities.
It's good, but hardly phenomenal.
It doesn't stop regeneration, but it still triggers weakness. As long as someone else can stop the regeneration, my illusory creature was making two attacks for 3d4+10. Getting to do that as a free action at level 4 is sick.
And Cackle doesn't prevent you from using all your other amazing focus abilities, it just stops you from using hexes for that round. Which stung at first, but you can still sustain hexes, and I've found other uses for my third action. Otherwise, if you multiclassed some focus stuff you only lose out on a point. Luckily, taking the Cackle feat got you an extra point. I think Witch and Oracle might be the only classes that can get 3 focus points at level 2.
It also sets up flanking for allies, has a 500 foot range and no limitations on speed or range increments. It used your spell modifier to attack, which means if can still land hits at high levels without heightening. Damage won't scale, but weakness does and flanking is great regardless. It has more freedom than summons and costs one less action, and doesn't require homework like summons do either. It's really easy to get brutes to lose at least two actions to it before they approach. And we haven't even talked about the out of combat utility, where it is also one of the most unique abilities in the game.
Illusions slap and if you don't think so you're doing it wrong.
Illusions slap and if you don't think so you're doing it wrong.
Well, you've more than convinced me to at least try them out if/when I get the chance.
Hard to say if it was meant ironically, but no need for the literal "you're doing it wrong" lol.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Weeeeell... Thing is, they are easy to do wrong. You know how in Portal they say "now you're thinking in portals"? Well, you need to think in illusions.
Take Illusory Object. On a lone brute enemy, it is easy to essentially stun 2 them, no save, if you have a bit of distance. Place a wall outside of their reach. They need to spend one action moving up to it, and one action interacting with it to determine its fake. (My table house rules that even though a 2nd level illusory object feels real go the touch, it doesn't stop you from pushing through it and gives no resistance to a strike. Otherwise the enemy has to roll to disbelieve and could lose multiple actions doing so.) That's a super strong effect for a 1st level spell.
But it has limits. It blocks sight for you and your allies as well, so you may need to delay to just before the enemy to avoid penalizing your team. It isn't great against hoards because once one enemy walks through, the others can without disbelieving it. And a caster enemy might Recall Knowledge to identify what you cast and realize they can still launch fireballs through it.
Illusory Creature/Object are simply unparalleled for their reliability, but require both good tactics and creativity. You also need to make sure your GM understands the illusion rules, specifically that they need to spend actions to disbelieve.
Edit: I should also note that illusory creature just wrecks demons if you can convey both holy and cold iron with the illusion. The former is as simple as using an angel image. The latter we decided required linguistics-- the illusion needs to scream "eat cold iron, demon scum" in a language the demon understands. I dealt like 200 damage to a demon using this method, and wound up doubling down on a secondary illusory creature because it was so effective. Triggering weakness 15 twice per hit adds up quick. The demon eventually destroyed one illusion and disbelieved the other, recovering half its hit points... But hey, that thing lost actions and still took 100 damage which stuck.
Protip: make your illusory wall out of illusory hellknight signifer mask material. Opaque on one side, see-through on the other.
Illusory Creature is also pretty unique with summons being its only real competition. (And summons are pretty crap compared to Illusory Creature.) But Illusory Object can also do what a lot of higher level illusion spells do, like Phantom Prism or Invisibility Wall, but better. To be a complete illusion trickster you really just need illusory disguise, object, and creature. Visions of Death and Phantasmal Calamity are good too if you want to deal damage with illusions. You can devote the rest of your spells to your usual caster staples.
Also staff of illusion is pretty much the best staff behind divination because these spells still rock when undercast.
Protip: make your illusory wall out of illusory hellknight signifer mask material. Opaque on one side, see-through on the other.
Lawlz. There are a lot of shenanigans you could try to pull like this, but don't be surprised if your GM brains you with their CRB for it. These spells are already super strong without actively cheesing them.
But do note you can try to make an illusion look extra scary to prevent a creature from just trying to smash it. Put a fire in front of a troll, or put a fey in a cage with razor wire around the bars and "warn" them it is cold iron.
These posts are a good prompt / reminder for me to sit down and recreate my PFS pre-remaster witch. It sounds like there were a lot of improvements and now witches are more reliable at lower levels.
Edit: I should also note that illusory creature just wrecks demons if you can convey both holy and cold iron with the illusion. The former is as simple as using an angel image. The latter we decided required linguistics-- the illusion needs to scream "eat cold iron, demon scum" in a language the demon understands. I dealt like 200 damage to a demon using this method, and wound up doubling down on a secondary illusory creature because it was so effective.
If I remember correctly, illusory creatures can't talk.
Edit: You can talk through one, but that might be pretty obvious to your enemies if you're standing out in the open of the combat area while you do it.
Edit: I should also note that illusory creature just wrecks demons if you can convey both holy and cold iron with the illusion. The former is as simple as using an angel image. The latter we decided required linguistics-- the illusion needs to scream "eat cold iron, demon scum" in a language the demon understands. I dealt like 200 damage to a demon using this method, and wound up doubling down on a secondary illusory creature because it was so effective.If I remember correctly, illusory creatures can't talk.
Edit: You can talk through one, but that might be pretty obvious to your enemies if you're standing out in the open of the combat area while you do it.
That's incredibly easy to solve for in combat. Just wear a mask. Most charisma based characters are doing so already for Demon Mask type purposes.