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I am looking for some more opinions on a rather interested rules conversation I am following on Discord. It involves investing of magic items.
The conversation started by asking What does remove mean when the rules state "If you remove an invested item, it loses its investiture." Take a hat. Does tipping your hat, which removes it from your head, mean it loses investiture? What if you put your great axe down to open your backpack -- with the intent of picking it back up again once you get the oil out to refill your lantern?
The follow up question is, if you have to reinvest your axe, does it count as another investiture towards the limit of 10/day?
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Weapons are not invested normally (still, Summoners may have to).
I have the feeling that the conversation is rather moot: Why would you remove an invested item in the first place?
And if you answer is any kind of shenanigans, like multiple PCs using the same invested item, then the GM can just raise the "You can invest no more than 10 items per day." to prevent abuses. So, once again, it's moot.
Yes invested rules are valid for items with Invested trait. Weapon, shields and other held items that requires a hand to be used usually doesn't get this trait.
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The conversation started by asking What does remove mean when the rules state "If you remove an invested item, it loses its investiture." Take a hat. Does tipping your hat, which removes it from your head, mean it loses investiture?
I feel that in order to avoid and prevent 'gotcha' shenanigans from either side of the GM screen, "removing" an invested item should involve explicitly removing the investment in addition to taking off the item from one's body. Not just the physical separation for a brief amount of time.
Very similar to how putting on and investing an invested item involves more than just putting it on your body. You also have to explicitly invest the item as part of the process.
This prevents things like disarming a Summoner to cause their Eidolon to lose a massive amount of their attacking power. Or the given example of tipping a hat from expending another investment point when you set it back on your head.
If an invested magical item is not returned to your possession by the time you make your next daily preparations, you lose your investment in that item.
If an invested magical item is not returned to your possession by the time you make your next daily preparations, you lose your investment in that item.
Yeah. At a maximum.
The rules don't really specify this, but I would probably even go as low as 10 minutes. If someone takes your item or you discard it, then you probably should lose investment fairly quickly.
A lot of invested items have a "Usage: worn" of some type and it is hard to say that you are still meeting that requirement and benefiting from the item if you are not wearing the item any more.
More questionable is if the item is forcibly removed from you but you eventually get it back after two hours and put it back on. Are you still investing that item or not? I don't think the rules actually specify.
Maybe imagining it more like a soul resonance that is in effect only when it's being attended by the user helps with the image?
Like screeching microphone feedback, the attunement is "silent" when the item is away from one's person, but flares back to effect as soon as you get close and grab it again.
Once PCs get a full suite of items and cap their investment, a PC dropping a weapon/ held item for a while is the most likely "unplugged" event that can happen, and also the most disruptive if it were to un-invest.
If a summoner got KOed and carried out by their allies, them dropping their weapon and being away from it for a while shouldn't result in "welp, I guess we're done until I can reinvest tomorrow" type scenarios.
You invest your energy in an item with the invested trait as you don it. This process requires 1 or more Interact actions, usually taking the same amount of time it takes to don the item. Once you’ve Invested the Item, you benefit from its constant magical abilities as long as you meet its other requirements (for most invested items, the only other requirement is that you must be wearing the item). This investiture lasts until you remove the item.
You can invest no more than 10 items per day. If you remove an invested item, it loses its investiture. The item still counts against your daily limit after it loses its investiture. You reset the limit during your daily preparations, at which point you Invest your Items anew. If you’re still wearing items you had invested the previous day, you can typically keep them invested on the new day, but they still count against your limit.
so as soon as you unequip an item that needs investment not matter how, you lose it benefit.
but from your question, "tiping your hat" dont necessarily mean that you unequipped, if you would say that you toss you hat away, then its clearly unequipping it.
i see alot of people talking about weapons, they dont use investment unless there is some homebrew weapon, and in that case you would lose it if you are not holding it in its required number of hands, but this would be home brew anyway so then its up to the gm.
so if you are captured and all you items are put in a box, you would lose all investment for that day, even if you would gain back the items.
if you swap you boots, you would lose the investment for you first boots, and might gain for your new boots.
Is there anything that specifically states you can only invest items once per day?
If not, then it seems to me you could reinvest a lost item if you had a reinvestment slot left open.
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Is there anything that specifically states you can only invest items once per day?
If not, then it seems to me you could reinvest a lost item if you had a reinvestment slot left open.
Clearly. If you have available investment slots you can invest items during the day and as such reinvest an item, too.
i see alot of people talking about weapons, they dont use investment unless there is some homebrew weapon, and in that case you would lose it if you are not holding it in its required number of hands, but this would be home brew anyway so then its up to the gm.
Again, Summoner:
Alternatively, you can Invest a magic weapon (even though magic weapons can't normally be Invested) to share its fundamental and property runes with your eidolon. You share these benefits only while you're holding the weapon, and you can have no more than one weapon invested in this way at a time.
If not, then it seems to me you could reinvest a lost item if you had a reinvestment slot left open.
Yes. But if you are having to re-invest your weapon at the start of every battle, that is going to run through your available investment rather quickly. When you lose investment in an item, you don't regain the investment slot until the next day and there is nothing saying that you can reinvest in the same item using the previously used slot for that item - you have to spend a new investment.
Hunh, I was going to mention Staves, as dropping one's staff seems a rather common occurrence.
However, once I checked the rules, there is no mention of investing in staves at all. As far as my reading comprehension goes, it seems that as long as the daily prep was done to add charges, the staff remains ready all day. It seems RaW to actually hand off a staff you don't intend to use to another spellcaster as well.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=748
I don't think there's some general magic item rule applying to require Staves to be invested either, it really seems like the intent of the investment system was narrowly focused on worn items.
Investing Magic Items
Certain magic items convey their magical benefits only when worn and invested using the Invest an Item activity, tying them to your inner potential. These items have the invested trait. Many invested items have constant abilities that function all the time or that always trigger when you use the item—but only when they're invested. If you don't have an item invested, these abilities don't work. If an invested item can be activated, you must have invested the item to activate it.You can benefit from no more than 10 invested magic items each day. Because this limit is fairly high, and because it matters only for worn items, you probably won't need to worry about reaching the limit until higher levels, when you've acquired many useful magic items to wear.
You can still gain the mundane benefits of an item if you don't invest it. A suit of +1 resilient armor still gives you its item bonus to AC when not invested, but it doesn't give its magical bonus to saving throws, and winged boots still protect your feet even though you can't activate them to fly. Entirely non-magical items don't need to be invested.
Might as well also quote the Invest an Item box blurb:
Invest an Item
Source Core Rulebook pg. 531 4.0You invest your energy in an item with the invested trait as you don it. This process requires 1 or more Interact actions, usually taking the same amount of time it takes to don the item. Once you’ve Invested the Item, you benefit from its constant magical abilities as long as you meet its other requirements (for most invested items, the only other requirement is that you must be wearing the item). This investiture lasts until you remove the item.
You can invest no more than 10 items per day. If you remove an invested item, it loses its investiture. The item still counts against your daily limit after it loses its investiture. You reset the limit during your daily preparations, at which point you Invest your Items anew. If you’re still wearing items you had invested the previous day, you can typically keep them invested on the new day, but they still count against your limit.
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However, once I checked the rules, there is no mention of investing in staves at all. As far as my reading comprehension goes, it seems that as long as the daily prep was done to add charges, the staff remains ready all day.
Correct.
It seems RaW to actually hand off a staff you don't intend to use to another spellcaster as well.
No.
The person who prepared a staff can expend the charges to cast spells from it.
No one can prepare more than one staff per day, nor can a staff be prepared by more than one person per day.
You can hand someone else your prepared staff, but they can't cast the spells from it or prepare it themselves (until the next day).