Champion >> Sword Ally >> Shifting Rune >> Specific Weapon >> Abilities?


Rules Discussion


Hello everyone.

I have a misunderstanding of how works mechanics in a specific case.

Conditions:
- A Champion takes Divine Ally feat (Sword Ally)
- Then, he invests his weapon with the effect of Shifting Rune
- His weapon is specific (i.e., Blast Lance)
- Blast Lance is a specific weapon, and any specific weapon may not be invested with property runes
- But instead, weapon get an effect of the property rune, not the rune itself
- And it seems like it works with Blade Ally feat

So the question is - If we shift a specific weapon (like Blast Lance) into another weapon, does such a weapon remain to keep the special abilities it has before?

Liberty's Edge

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It works. But in the case of Shifting, I would adjudicate, based on its description, that the special power can only be activated when it is a Blast Lance.


The Raven Black wrote:
It works. But in the case of Shifting, I would adjudicate, based on its description, that the special power can only be activated when it is a Blast Lance.

What if the ability doesn't bind to a specific weapon?

For example Fiend's Hunger has an ability:

Activate [free-action] command (divine, enchantment, mental) Frequency once per day; Trigger You score a critical hit against a fiend; Effect Vengeful echoes of the fallen lance out into the psyche of the fiend struck. After the normal effects of the critical hit, the target must roll a DC 18 Fortitude save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The creature becomes distracted by vengeful spirits and becomes flat-footed until the start of your next turn.
Failure As success, but the creature is also slowed 1 for 1 round.
Critical Failure As failure, but the creature is slowed 1 for 1 minute.

This ability will also not be retained after shifting?


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From a strict RAW point of view, it works. But it seems clearly an unexpected interaction so I'd not default to RAW in that case.

Shifting says: Activate [one-action] Interact ; Effect The weapon takes the shape of another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield. The weapon’s runes and any precious material it’s made of apply to the weapon’s new shape. Any property runes that can’t apply to the new form are suppressed until the item takes a shape to which they can apply.

I think there's an RAI case to make on the last sentence. Even if we are not technically speaking of a property rune, it's clearly a case of a "property" being transfered. Now, there's a lot of freedom for the GM to choose if the specific weapon ability can be transfered.


My RAI answer is this:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 600 4.0 - Specific Magic Weapons wrote:
These weapons have abilities far different from what can be gained by simply etching runes. A specific magic weapon lists its fundamental runes, which you can upgrade, add, or transfer as normal. You can't etch or transfer any property runes onto a specific weapon that it doesn't already have, and you can't remove its property runes.

I treat the Blade Ally property runes benefit with the same restriction of the property runes to specific weapon preventing unexpected interactions.

Liberty's Edge

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RAW it works fine because of the difference between "apply the effect" and "etch or transfer any property rune" and I've never had to rule on it for games I've run as Champion hasn't been a Class those players ever chose but I'd disallow it at my table as additional property runes on specific weapons is, generally speaking, a can of worms that was intended pretty clearly to remain sealed.

Liberty's Edge

Andrey Grekhov wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
It works. But in the case of Shifting, I would adjudicate, based on its description, that the special power can only be activated when it is a Blast Lance.

What if the ability doesn't bind to a specific weapon?

For example Fiend's Hunger has an ability:

Activate [free-action] command (divine, enchantment, mental) Frequency once per day; Trigger You score a critical hit against a fiend; Effect Vengeful echoes of the fallen lance out into the psyche of the fiend struck. After the normal effects of the critical hit, the target must roll a DC 18 Fortitude save.
Critical Success The creature is unaffected.
Success The creature becomes distracted by vengeful spirits and becomes flat-footed until the start of your next turn.
Failure As success, but the creature is also slowed 1 for 1 round.
Critical Failure As failure, but the creature is slowed 1 for 1 minute.

This ability will also not be retained after shifting?

I was not clear. I would base my adjudication on the description of the special power.

In the example you give (Fiend's hunger), I would likely allow it to work even when Shifted.


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I think strict RAW they wouldn't transfer, because the only thing that transfers is "The weapon’s runes and any precious material it’s made of apply to the weapon’s new shape. "

So the new weapon will not have the non-rune, non-material specific effects.

Am I wrong here?


Themetricsystem wrote:
RAW it works fine because of the difference between "apply the effect" and "etch or transfer any property rune" ...

I wouldn't be surprised to see them plug that hole in Player Core 2.

There was a somewhat similar issue in the wording for the Magic Weapon spell where it stated that "The target becomes a +1 striking weapon." Doubling Rings replicate "the weapon’s fundamental runes" and, since Magic Weapon never explicitly said that the weapon gained actual runes, it wasn't clear whether the rings could transfer the effects of the spell to a second weapon.

But Runic Weapon adds the sentence "The weapon glimmers with magic as temporary runes carve down its length." This makes it clear that the spell creates actual, albeit temporary, runes and so the weapon would be subject to all of the usual rules regarding runes. So cast the spell on the rapier in your right hand and your doubling rings will turn the dagger in your left into a +1 striking weapon, too.

They made a similar change from Magic Fang to Runic Body. My guess is that all references to "effects of runes" or "benefits of runes" in abilities like Sword Ally and the Magus' Runic Impression spell will eventually be worded so as to make it clear that actual runes are created. They would resolve a lot of potential confusion.

(On the other hand, the new Ghostly Weapon spell does still use the "effects of" wording. It's possible that just slipped through the rushed editing process.)

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