Hello, with extend kinesis, a character can create a second tree adjacent to its first tree, is it right ?
With Igneogenis, can a character create a wall of stone ? So the character can hide behind or block the area affect or aura ?
Thanks for your future answer.
Waldham wrote: Hello, with extend kinesis, a character can create a second tree adjacent to its first tree, is it right ? Neither Base Kinesis or Extended Kinesis will let you replicate the effects of an Impulse. You are simply creating or manipulating some quantity of the mundane element.
So Base Kinesis would let you 'generate' a stick standing upright in the ground. Extended Kinesis would let you 'proliferate' that stick into a larger stick or tree trunk.
But it would still be a mundane bit of wood stuck into the ground. It wouldn't be a tree and it certainly wouldn't be a second copy of Timber Sentinel in an adjacent square.
Waldham wrote: With Igneogenis, can a character create a wall of stone ? So the character can hide behind or block the area affect or aura ? Igneogenesis wouldn't duplicate the effects of the spell Wall of Stone.
You could create a 5 foot cube of stone that fills its space and causes locations on the map to provide cover. So the Kineticist or other creatures could use that 5 foot cube as cover as they could with any other bit of terrain. At higher levels you can create more cubes, and it would look somewhat like a wall of stone.
Finoan wrote: Waldham wrote: Hello, with extend kinesis, a character can create a second tree adjacent to its first tree, is it right ? Neither Base Kinesis or Extended Kinesis will let you replicate the effects of an Impulse. You are simply creating or manipulating some quantity of the mundane element.
So Base Kinesis would let you 'generate' a stick standing upright in the ground. Extended Kinesis would let you 'proliferate' that stick into a larger stick or tree trunk.
But it would still be a mundane bit of wood stuck into the ground. It wouldn't be a tree and it certainly wouldn't be a second copy of Timber Sentinel in an adjacent square.
Waldham wrote: With Igneogenis, can a character create a wall of stone ? So the character can hide behind or block the area affect or aura ? Igneogenesis wouldn't duplicate the effects of the spell Wall of Stone.
You could create a 5 foot cube of stone that fills its space and causes locations on the map to provide cover. So the Kineticist or other creatures could use that 5 foot cube as cover as they could with any other bit of terrain. At higher levels you can create more cubes, and it would look somewhat like a wall of stone. Extended kinesis specifically has the "turn a twig to a small tree" as an example of Proliferate creating stuff.
So you can indeed proliferate (small) trees one next to the other
Igneogenesis requires a 1 hour exploration activity to make it permanent. If you cast it a second time in succession without that, then per the rules, the first block/thing/space "returns to its original location or form".
So you can build a wall with it...at a rate of one 5-foot cube per hour, techincally only in exploration mode. Honestly I'd be a bit relaxed about that last bit; if I were GMing and such a PC asked if they could use that as their downtime money-maker ("I take a job helping the city's engineers build walls!"), I'd probably say yes. But for a PC in encounter mode, nope, they can't build a wall by re-casting their Igneogenesis impulse once per turn. And they can't "pre-buff" for an encounter by building a wall several minutes before the expected combat.
shroudb wrote: Extended kinesis specifically has the "turn a twig to a small tree" as an example of Proliferate creating stuff.
So you can indeed proliferate (small) trees one next to the other
But said trees still can't create conditions; extended kinesis follows base kinesis rules on that. So, arguably, your new forest of trees doesn't create cover or difficult terrain or concealment or anything like that. Though maybe I'm being too much of a stick-ler. Heh.
Easl wrote: shroudb wrote: Extended kinesis specifically has the "turn a twig to a small tree" as an example of Proliferate creating stuff.
So you can indeed proliferate (small) trees one next to the other
But said trees still can't create conditions; extended kinesis follows base kinesis rules on that. So, arguably, your new forest of trees doesn't create cover or difficult terrain or concealment or anything like that. Though maybe I'm being too much of a stick-ler. Heh.
we have to keep in mind that a tree that has to fit in a 5ft cube, is by definition either a shrub or a sapling.
Hard to hide behind a sapling^^
A case can be made for the shrubbery, if one crouches behind it, but at that point, it offers as much cover as any shrubbery normally provides.
Because even if the impulse doesn't mention specific conditions like cover, it still is a functioning shrubbery for all intents and purposes. Similar to how (as an example) creating a stone wall allows you to hide behind it, because that's a property of a stone wall, and not because that's something that has to be called out in a spell description.
shroudb wrote:
Hard to hide behind a sapling^^
Super easy. Barely an inconvienience
shroudb wrote: Because even if the impulse doesn't mention specific conditions like cover, it still is a functioning shrubbery for all intents and purposes. I would disagree in this particular case. Base kinesis does specifically mention that the elemental things it produces cannot create conditions. And extended kinesis uses those rules. So it just doesn't create conditions, even if a single-hex natural occurrence of the same thing would. Is that sensible? Well, it's magic. Saying the shrubbery this magic creates doesn't have the nebulous "it" needed to create a condition that a natural example of the same thing would, is no more absurd or hard to believe than the spontaneous creation of a magical shrub in the first place. It's magic, it has it's own rules. Those rules are not just extended physics.
However I wouldn't impose 'no conditions' on other magical 'create' powers that don't mention conditions etc. at all. Igneogenesis is a good example, since the OP asked about it. It doesn't have the 'no conditions' text that base kinesis has, so there is no RAW reason to impose a 'no condition' restriction on the things it creates.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
From GM Core 91: While trees are omnipresent in a forest, they typically don’t provide cover unless a character uses the Take Cover action. Only larger trees that take up an entire 5-foot square on the map (or more) are big enough to provide cover automatically.
Easl wrote: shroudb wrote: Because even if the impulse doesn't mention specific conditions like cover, it still is a functioning shrubbery for all intents and purposes. I would disagree in this particular case. Base kinesis does specifically mention that the elemental things it produces cannot create conditions. And extended kinesis uses those rules. So it just doesn't create conditions, even if a single-hex natural occurrence of the same thing would. Is that sensible? Well, it's magic. Saying the shrubbery this magic creates doesn't have the nebulous "it" needed to create a condition that a natural example of the same thing would, is no more absurd or hard to believe than the spontaneous creation of a magical shrub in the first place. It's magic, it has it's own rules. Those rules are not just extended physics.
However I wouldn't impose 'no conditions' on other magical 'create' powers that don't mention conditions etc. at all. Igneogenesis is a good example, since the OP asked about it. It doesn't have the 'no conditions' text that base kinesis has, so there is no RAW reason to impose a 'no condition' restriction on the things it creates. I would disagree with your disagreement:P
You are baseing this on:
Quote: Base Kinesis can't deal damage or cause conditions unless otherwise noted. But a)neither Cover or difficult terrain are conditions.
And b)Extended kinesis does note that you cover a full 5ft area instead of the normal effects. So that could be used as an argument that this is what that clause specifically means (since that's the only "note" that changes base kinesis)
Lastly c)
What this line refers to is the effect of you using the impulse. That doesn't extend to the permanent changes you do to the terrain.
You can't damage someone by moving the fire on him.
But if you make a huge bonfire and someone moves and sit on it, he'll get burned.
OR
Is your interpetation that if you dig out a hole with earth kinesis, people can stand on air above it (since falling in the hole would cause Prone and Damage)?
shroudb wrote: a)neither Cover or difficult terrain are conditions. Fair criticism. The 'no conditions' thing is limited to the things the system defines as conditions.
Quote: b)Extended kinesis does note that you cover a full 5ft area instead of the normal effects. So that could be used as an argument that this is what that clause specifically means (since that's the only "note" that changes base kinesis) Disagree here. I read "unless otherwise noted" as the writer of this paragraph hedging against the possibility that some other bit of text says something contradictory ("you can create X condition"), and they just forgot or didn't know about it. I do not read it as meaning broad generic statements like "fills the square" allows for the creation of conditions.
Quote: Lastly c)
What this line refers to is the effect of you using the impulse. That doesn't extend to the permanent changes you do to the terrain.
You can't damage someone by moving the fire on him.
But if you make a huge bonfire and someone moves and sit on it, he'll get burned.
OR
Is your interpetation that if you dig out a hole with earth kinesis, people can stand on air...
Also fair. The 'reacts with the environment naturally' language also supports you. I guess what I would probably rule is that 'reacts naturally' means 'transitions to GM adjudication of what the environment does.' So if you create something where there is one obvious outcome, that outcome happens (and any reasonable GM should support it). Everything rolls down into a hole. All flesh is burned by fire. All pools of water are wet. But if the natural environment would be open to GM adjudication of it's impact on the characters, then the GM gets to adjudicate in this case too - the player doesn't get to 'force' a decision about natural interactions merely because their character did the creating. Whether trees are sufficiently thick to provide cover (and what level of it) is a GM adjudication. So the kineticist doesn't get to decide that, the GM does. Likewise for some 'hole creation'. It's going to be up to the GM to decide if hole creation in an occupdied square causes the occupant to fall, or they get to move, or simply can't be done because it's "attended". PF is pretty paranoid about characters using non-attack powers to drop antagonists off cliffs or otherwise 'auto damage' them, after all. I can't imagine the devs intended for Extended Kinesis to have that capability, or that the RAW sentences should be read in a way that gives it that capability.
Maybe at the point of holes created under people and trees created in their squares, the discussion belongs more in 'advice' than 'rules'?
Is it possible for example extend a corridor from 5 feet wide to 10 feet wide modifying the wall with Igneogenesis ?
Waldham wrote: Is it possible for example extend a corridor from 5 feet wide to 10 feet wide modifying the wall with Igneogenesis ? I assume you mean creating a new stone object via the "manipulating earth and stone around you" text? I'm not sure. Seems kinda cheaty to use igneogenesis as a tunneling machine by moving earth from one place to another.
First, you can only do one 5' cube at a time; unless you spend a 1 hr exploration action to 'fix' the first one in it's new form, the moment you start manipulating a second cube of earth, the first one goes back to it's original form. I think what you're talking about would generally require a lot more earth movement than a single 5' cube at a time?
But assuming your GM allows earth movement, maybe there's an interesting application there for a "surprise entrance" to an adjoining room. "I take a 1' thick, 3' wide, 8' high section of the wall there and I use igneogenesis to shape it into a roughly 3' cube behind us in our corridor. Then we all walk through. Then I stop using igneogenesis and the wall snaps back into place" might, RAW, be possible. Again though, sounds kinda against the RAI to me. The intent is clearly to let you make temporary stone objects, not walk through walls.
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