Religion & Alt History

[ElementalofCuteness]

What would you guys do for a alt history of Earth where we have Pathfinder Races and magic running around? How would you start such a history, how would you handles religion since a lot of modern religions are a single god, would it be possible to even replicate such a feeling of a single all mighty god or would it be best to scrap everything and do a single set of deities worshipped world wide. Perhaps I should write several patheons that are battling over Earth?

[Dancing Wind]

If this is for PF2, then Pathfinder doesn't have races any more. You'll need to talk about the ancestories and heritages.

I strongly suggest you start using that language right away, because discussions on these boards about real life Earth and races tend to go off the rails and get deleted very quickly.

Flagging to move to Homebrew forum.

[The Raven Black]

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

What would you guys do for a alt history of Earth where we have Pathfinder Races and magic running around? How would you start such a history, how would you handles religion since a lot of modern religions are a single god, would it be possible to even replicate such a feeling of a single all mighty god or would it be best to scrap everything and do a single set of deities worshipped world wide. Perhaps I should write several patheons that are battling over Earth?

I would go with worshippers doing battle, rather than the deities/pantheons themselves, for mysterious reasons much debated by mortals. And the monotheisms could have pantheons based on the servants of the divinity (angels, saints, ...) or even on the aspect of the divinity you mention in your prayer (justice, forgiveness, protection ...) for a less incarnated take on monotheism.

And yes to what Dancing Wind said : Ancestries, not Races.

Most humanoid ancestries would come from a common ancestor, except for those from different branches of the life tree, such as reptiles and insects, but they end up looking similar anyway even though they are definitely not the same.

And magic would be the reason for all things too different/illogical from our RL world.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Well, I meant races as Ancestry. I am still getting over the term change, coming from Pathfinder 1E and DnD (For a decade). It is still a habit to call Ancestries races. I am sure i am not the first nor the last to use the word "Race" instead of "Ancestry".

However when you take real-earth history and add in fantasy ancestries how would it change in your opinion starting at around, let's say the roman period for example.

[siegfriedliner]

So Golarian and our Earth are already linked The Ossirian Gods are the Acient Gods of Egypt and Golarian and Earth both unfortunately share a troublwd history with Baba Yaga.

If I was going for an alt history to bring the two worlds into closer alignment I would make a run off of reign of winter where baba Yaga is the Empress of Winter as using Earth as a rallying point for her conquest of Golarian.

Which caused Golarian to send heroes to earth to disrupt the Mad Witches march of conquest.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Oh... this is a huge question with vastly many possibilities based on starting conditions. Like, are sorcerers particularly rare, or did Sorcerer-Kings and their bloodlines dominate early history?

Meanwhile, there is implication that even though the gods predate material Universe, there may have been a time where they simply were not worshipped. The Green Faith is called out as one of the oldest forms of worship. Perhaps in this fantasy Earth, druids predate clerics, too.

Also, if dropping each of the humanoid ancestries onto Earth, where do they all come from? Did they evolve in Africa like with humans, did they spontaneously arise in history as they were created by deities, or perhaps we borrow from Golarion and the elves fled the collapse of their civilization on Venus while dwarves emerge from the deepest cave systems on the planet alongside orcs?

Another thing is levels. Probably no human who ever lived on 'real' Earth ever hit higher than 5th or 6th level, much less double digits. Even ignoring magic, on this fantasy Earth, have humans strong enough to kill a bear with nothing but their spear and a bad temper? To kill multiple bears? A herd of elephants? Even before the advent of any kind of formal 'civilization'? Naturally higher level individuals would be increasingly rare, especially when global human populations were low, but presumably there would still be those whose actions have an outsized effect on and presumably rise to the top of their local social hierarchy.

I guess the short answer is that it would be impossible for it to be anything but unrecognizable as Earth--except for the in broadest notes of geography--but obviously that's not a very satisfying answer. The point of making fantasy Earths usually isn't to invent a new world wholecloth but re-use a familiar looking map. Regardless how unlikely it would be for this fantasy Earth to turn out anything like real Earth, we still have our ideas about what conclusions we want to arise, like the improbable rise of large monotheistic religions with Pathfinder style deities.

Personally, I like the idea of early humans in Africa learning druidry and animism from revered nature spirits, with certain cunning folk turning to diverse entities to broach into arcane and occult magics (perhaps earning censure from their orthodox peers, perhaps earning power and prestige depending on precise circumstance).

I kind of feel like it might be best if we assume that circumstances impose a soft limit on the level cap. Maybe there's not enough high-level enemies out there for there to be any need improving one's craft, or maybe something about the focus of tribe life makes attaining the heights of magic impractical. Either way, the plot veers sharply off course if the power of the local druid can provide sufficient food, water, and shelter without ever needing to settle down in a river valley somewhere.

... On the other hand comfortable living with food, shelter, and water are very likely to result in a lot more humans, so maybe that's where populations started getting too dense to avoid some manner of civilization popping up.

Anyway, that's more time than I have for this right now. Eternally interesting question!

[josefromeo]

Dancing Wind wrote:

If this is for PF2, then Pathfinder doesn't have races any more. You'll need to talk about the ancestories and heritages.

I strongly suggest you start using that language right away, because discussions on these boards about real life Earth and races tend to go off the rails and get deleted very quickly.

Flagging to move to Homebrew forum.

"

Creating an alternative history of Earth with Pathfinder Races and magic sounds intriguing! Crafting such a world involves a lot of creative possibilities, especially regarding religion and belief systems. You could explore various approaches—perhaps crafting diverse pantheons or a singular set of deities that are globally worshipped, each with their own unique powers and conflicts.
have you delved into the significance of Ayatul Kursi in some belief systems? It might offer some fascinating insights into diverse perspectives on spirituality and the concept of an all-mighty presence.

[Ectar]

First thing I'd probably consider is when the other ancestries came in to being on Earth.
Did they all evolve together naturally? Or are some of them from somewhere else?
What is the distribution of those ancestries? Are things well-mixed? Or are there countries with primarily one ancestry?

[pauljathome]

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

What would you guys do for a alt history of Earth where we have Pathfinder Races and magic running around? How would you start such a history, how would you handles religion since a lot of modern religions are a single god, would it be possible to even replicate such a feeling of a single all mighty god or would it be best to scrap everything and do a single set of deities worshipped world wide. Perhaps I should write several patheons that are battling over Earth?

For religion you can do what Tolkein did.

There is one God but there are multiple lesser gods.

[Dragonchess Player]

Ars Magica is probably one of the better takes for this.

It could make an interesting campaign to use Ars Magica's setting with PF2 rules and selectively include PF2 ancestries. Note: There are some stereotype pitfalls to avoid; it's better to add non-human ancestries as sub-communities in existing human cultures/nations than completely replace the "historical" humans with a fantasy ancestry.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Oh, I see in your second post you offered a timeline. "The roman period," still leaves a large span of time but does offer some utility (since most fantasy settings with dungeons of a lost civilizations are, intentionally or not, referencing the collapse of Rome).

Let's say at some point, during the height of the Empire--

Actually, let's arbitrarily put it at 1 CE just so that we can have this big calendar-defining event keep the same dates on the Julian calendar

--Anyway, let's say something happens during the Roman Empire. Maybe the planets align just right, maybe Roman theurgists perform a massive ritual just right and open a cosmic gate. Regardless, magic is suddenly real, and there's a bunch of new people walking around.

The change is sudden, but perhaps it takes a while to notice. Orcs suddenly start appearing out of previously undiscovered super deep caves in the Alps (also I guess those 4 caves in Abkhazia/Georgia, but that's a bit on the edge of our scope here), followed immediately by dwarves. In the heart of the thickets forest, an enclave of elves teleport in one day. Perhaps this world's version of the Battle of Teutoburg Forest includes elf archers working alongside the Germanic tribes to drive the Empire back. Unaccountably many short people just show up around the empire acting like they've always been there.

Meanwhile magic springs out of the woodwork as mystery cultists, musicians, druids, and goetes suddenly discover much more efficacious techniques to enact power.

(I wanted to pull out like the high priest of Jupiter, but at this point Emperor Augustus has named himself high priest of the empire)

That's about all I have for now.

Part of me wants to suggest converting clerics (and later champions) to a more faith-based system, where it's their own faith in the divine that allows them to draw on divine powers, and less a matter of who or what they worship. The anathema would still be important (still gotta have something concrete to believe in, after all) but the gods remain distant and therefore unnecessary to justify. -- on the other hand, "Literally all the gods are real" might be a fun way.

Somewhat ironically, going with pure faith, it's possible that Roman state actually doesn't gain any clerics. Not because they didn't believe their gods existed (quite to the contrary) but because they conceived the relationship with their gods as less "I believe in you and you help me" and more "I give you things, you give me things". Not sure if this was particular to Roman religion or more common at the time, I only know about the one.

[markrivett]

I deal with the mechanics of religion in a homebrew setting I'm currently running through a "strength of denomination" and "circular logic" system.

Similar to denominations of Christianity, in my home brew setting, there is an ancient deceased entity whose teachings provoke a wide range of belief systems over time.

A religion grows in divine power as it grows its following, material prosperity, external image, collection of relics, etc. The reverse is also true.

For example, a religion with millions of followers, tremendous wealth, great respect, and a exalted collection of holy artifacts would have casters capable of reaching the top-tier of divine spell casting.

Mechanically there is no functional difference between recruitment, reproductive proliferation, or subjugation when growing a following. More followers = more divine power. If the religion entices people to be a part of it by exemplifying heroism and benevolence, that helps them. If the religion instead forces conversion through brutality, that also helps them.

Prosperity can cbe financial, territory, or pretty much anything of vale. A religion that uses that wealth to grow its following helps itself. A religion that uses its wealth to subjugate neighboring realms also helps itself.

Image can be fear, respect, or anything in between.

Relics can be genuine or imaginary. It mostly matters whether people believe the relic holds significance or not.

When creating a religion analogous to the followers of Asmodeus, an Earthly religion probably wouldn't have a central figure called Asmodeus at all. Formal organizations may be akin to bar associations and lobbyists (called patrons or patronage in pre-modern periods). Its followers might even be offended if you even called their system a religion. They would be grounded in Asmodean principles shrouded in rhetoric: "I must rule tyrannically because these people are too stupid to rule themselves."

You can pretty much erase all the names of the gods and just change them to disconnected organizations that just have the same loose set of beliefs.