| Northern Spotted Owl |
In our last session we each gained a card/tile and were told to create a magic item corresponding to it.
I've built a fey-themed item. First, a mixed ability that's perhaps more of a negative than a positive.
You gain the Summon Nature's Ally spells on your spell list, but lose any Summon Monster spells. Likewise, you gain Fey Form but lose every other series of polymorph spells (beast shape, monstrous physique, etc.). These are each from the Druid list, so you at least gain Fey Form on the early schedule.
Then the key ability. Each day when you prepare your spells, toss a coin.
Heads: You gain Fey Spell Lore, with the spells added to your spell list whether it is a druid spell list or not. Then spell list is not fixed, and is a random (1d6) from:
- Fey Spell Lore's listed spells
- Cleric Charm domain's spells
- Cleric Luck domain's spells
- Cleric Trickery domain's spells
- Sorcerer Fey bloodline's spells
- Witch Trickery patron's spells
Tails: You gain Fey Obedience to a random member of the Eldest for that day. You must perform the obedience to gain its benefits.
In terms of pricing, I think the first ability is more of a negative than a positive since Summon Monster is generally more flexible than SNA. And Fey Form is among the weakest polymorph spell series. I'm really not sure how to price that.
Then ioun stones that grant a feat are 8,000-10,000 gp. But this is a varying feat that you can't particularly depend on. Each spell list has at least a few good spells, so that's nice. But only a couple of the Eldest's obediences are very useful. So again I'm a bit unsure how to price this.
| Pizza Lord |
Lots of estimation required here. A lot of this stuff is going to depend on how impactful and useful the item is overall. Then for the specific game, it has to be looked at for who will likely be using it. For instance, in a general magic item pricing, an item that only dwarves can use should be discounted, but if a player is making it and their whole group is dwarves, realistically there's no actual in-game downside to that restriction, and in fact it can become a boon if your enemies get a hold of it and then can't use it. But, ultimately it's about getting a rough guideline. Probably best to break the benefits and drawbacks into two lists. It looks like there's 4 benefits (with drawbacks).
1. Add summon nature's ally spells to owner/wielder/wearer's spell lists.
This is like adding a domain list (but not the domain power). Who does it help or not help? It doesn't help non-casters. It doesn't help druids, rangers, or shamans. So basically clerics, bards and wizard/sorcerer-types. We'll consider the downsides and impact later, but it basically gives you access to 9 spells that you theoretically didn't have. It doesn't let you cast them itself, you still need to spend slots and choose to prepare them and it doesn't give you access to the higher level ones until you can cast those spell levels. So a 1st-level user is basically getting one summon nature's ally spell. The benefit improves with level gained, which isn't a bad thing, just noting it.
2. You gain access to fey form (presumably the entire fey form-line, not just the first).
Basically this means you get fey forms I, II, III, and IV at spell levels 3, 5, 7, and 9 respectively. In exchange for losing every other polymorph-series of spells.
3. 50% chance that the user/wielder/owner gains the Fey Spell Lore feat. Which allows them to prepare spells like a druid from the list of dancing lights, lesser confusion, charm person, invisibility, bestow curse, charm monster, major curse, cloak of dreams, insanity, and irresistible dance if they also roll a 1 on a d6. Otherwise, it's basically it's a bunch of other possible spells added to a caster-owner's spell options.
Same as #1 above, it doesn't really give you anything other than access. If you can't cast spells or spells of that level, it's less useful. It's still a benefit so we'll price it accordingly, but then we'll point out that anyone who benefits from a majority of the above summon nature's ally benefits, likely has access to at least half of these already. These are more likely to be useful to druids or rangers who won't have these spells. So in most cases Pros #1 and #3 are going to flip-flop on any individual owner between being useful and pointless.
4. 50% of the time you gain Fey Obedience. This is a lot of differing things, but are doable. Presumably the owner receives indication of who and what they are supposed to appease. They don't have to do it, of course. Which means 50% of the time, this benefit does nothing. I guess the only issue is Ng, who requires you to have worn a veil or gloves at all times in the past 24 hours. You will have no idea you were supposed to have done that, but I guess after the first time (or research), you could just wear a veil or gloves at all times every day on the chance that you randomly get Ng.
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1. You lose summon monster spell access to gain summon nature's ally access.
The drawback is pointless to non-casters (which is fine, since the corresponding benefit is too). It's pointless to druids and rangers, who don't normally get those (which is fine, since the benefit is pointless to them too). I think there's some arguments in terms of versatility and such, but the spells summon monster and summon nature's ally are comparable enough in power level to be a wash and it only comes down to the situations or specific caster that makes one better than the other.
2. You lose access to polymorph-series spells to gain fey form access.
The wording does mean that druids don't lose wildshape at least.
I am just making sure on the wording that it only applies to (polymorph) chains. You say 'series of polymorph spells' Technically alter self might not be considered one, but if another spell later says it's like that but improved, then it might be. Is polymorph considered a 'polymorph series' spell? It duplicates the stated examples when used to take those forms, like beast shape if you take the form of an animal. I just want to know if this is removing all polymorph spells.
Fey form I and beast shape I are very comparable in what they grant you in terms of abilities, movement, etc. After that, beast shape does get you to bigger forms quicker, but fey forms grant you much more varied powers. With animals, you're going to be shooting for basically pounce, trip, or maybe grab and constrict. Great options, but the fey form will let you take fey shapes and get some pretty unique, or at least, lesser known powers which can be even more versatile (in my opinion). I think fey form and monstrous physique are almost identical in power, just differing in the forms. I am not going too far into other polymorph lines.
3. 50% of the time, this doesn't happen. When it does, there's about a 90% chance that 50% the spells given to you are pointless because you already have access to them (granted, a wizard or sorcerer might not have chosen or learned a spell that would be on their normal list, but that's why it's not 100%). The other downside is now the owner or GM has to cycle through domains, patrons, or bloodlines to find what they can do, which is either a lot of page flipping or a lot of notes being at the ready for something that only applies 50% of the time on any day and then might not give you a spell you don't already have access to.
4. 50% of the time, this doesn't happen. When it does, you don't have to do it, so it does nothing. That's player's choice, nothing wrong there, they want the benefit they can make the effort or not. No downside for not doing it. The main issue is... now the GM has to look up Fey Eldest, has to find their obediences and convey that to the player, who may then want to know more about who or what they're appeasing (some players might not want to appease such a creature, even if only for RP purposes). This is mostly a gametable drawback, as this is a fey magic item, it's not really a bad or wrong thing for it to do, just a bit clunky (in my opinion).
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These are all just my opinions and thoughts.
Benefits
1. +1,000–2,000 gp for access to summon nature's ally spells. While not useful for non-casters or druidic types that already have it, items must and should be priced as though they will always be of benefit, so we're counting this as it being used by someone that doesn't have access and now will. It doesn't let them cast them before a normal caster that could and they still need to expend slots to prepare or cast. This benefit is more useful to higher level users (casters) than lower, since it gives them access to the more powerful summon nature's ally spells.
2. +1,000–2,000 gp for access to fey form spell line. As above, it doesn't let you cast the spells for free. You still need to be able to do so and use slots.
3. +2,000–4,000 gp for access to Fey Spell Lore spell list (or cleric Charm, Luck, or Trickery domains, or witch Trickery patron, or sorcerer fey bloodline spell lists). None of these spells are more powerful than a normal caster would have at those levels, it's only giving someone (who presumably doesn't have one or more of these spells) access to preparing or casting them. Same points as #1 above. The price is high here because of the sheer amount and potential, it will get reduced later because of random 50% chance and fact that spell lists granted are random and unknown.
4. +4,000–10,000 gp for granting Fey Obedience. The feat does nothing, it's the use of the feat that has merit. Basically in most cases it is a +4 sacred bonus to something. In most cases, cost will be bonus squared x 2,000 gp. So (4x4) x 2,000 would be 32,000 in cases where it as a saving throw. Obviously these are usually restricted even further to specific events, so would can probably cut down to between 4,000 and 10,000 gp. We have to assume that the user is always benefitting when possible. The trouble is that sometimes its a skill bonus, sometimes an AC bonus, sometimes a save bonus, which all have different costs for a +4 bonus.
Drawback reductions
1. Maybe 20% for removing access to summon monster. The two lines are comparable but different and it's assumed an owner just won't use the item if they really didn't want to lose access. So not much.
Reduction 200–400 gp.
2. Maybe 20% (note I am deducting from the linked benefits, not adding a total percentage reduction) for giving up polymorph spell chains (this could be higher if it's all polymorph spells, not just chains. This is potentially a bigger lose in chains than the gain in one, but it's assumed the owner knows the drawback and is choosing it because what they're losing is of less value to them.
Reduction 200–400 gp.
3. 40% reduction because 50% of the time this doesn't happen. "But why not 50%?" you ask. Because instead of doing nothing it does something else, so it isn't all or nothing.
Reduction 800–1,600 gp.
4. 40% reduction because 50% of the time this doesn't happen. That's also taking into account the random fact that who knows which Eldest it will be or their boon.
Reduction 1,600–4,000 gp.
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I would estimate this to be around, 5,200–11,600 gp in price [(8,000–18,000 gp) – (2,800–6,400 gp reduction)]. The Fey Obedience thing really makes it swingy and harder to narrow the range. I would probably split the difference and round up a bit to err on the side of more beneficial to about 8,500 gp.
Then there could be an adjustment on how the item is used. Is it only worn (does it take a magic item slot). Must it be predominantly held or on person and presented, or merely in possession (or even just owned and not on the person)? Does it have an attunement period (not that I would likely discount anything for a 24 hour attunement period), but I would like something like that to prevent it being just passed around.
Ultimately, this is more art than science and really just one person's opinion. Even others who agree with everything I said, could still vary wildly in their valuation by thousands of gold pieces just based on what they set an ability's value at or the percentage they give a drawback.
Also, you sometimes need to compare an item to an already existing item of close or similar effect. I could also have compared the granted spell lists to something like a Page of Spell Knowledge, and then price it for each spell from 1st-9th, but you'd see the price skyrocket (I mean, really, really skyrocket).
I would find this item personally to be a bit of a chore to work with every day, but that's me and this item definitely does what it's flavored to do. Ultimately it's worthless to non-casters except for 50% of the time they get Fey Obedience and then decide to appease that eldest., it's about 50% worthless to casters because they'll have access already to 50% of what they get spell wise. Not bad, just my opinion. If that's the intent, then it works. If I were doing such an item, I might consider just focusing it on one Eldest or two similar or related ones. Like making a feather token, maybe there's a bunch like it, but make one that is associated with Green Mother or Ng or Lantern King and then you can more specifically define it. Again, if your intention was random fluctuating fey hijinx, it's fine.
| Northern Spotted Owl |
That’s a ton of work, and pretty insightful. And yes, the goal is Fey hijinx.
My character is a witch, so he:
Trades out summon monster for SNA. Modest loss.
Loses vermin shape, but gains Fey form earlier. Modest gain.
(And yes, the goal is to lose only the “series” polymorph spells, not Alter Self, etc.)
Say that’s worth 1000-2000 gp.
Gains a feat, or rather 50% of two feats. Where neither of those feats are predictable.
Each potential feat is about 30-60% useful.
E.g. Fey obedience to Shyka is amazing, while Ragadahn is likely useless.
Fey Spell List (assuming 70% the value of the original feat)
10000*50%*70% = 3500 gp
Fey Obedience (assuming 50% the value of choosing a specific Eldest)
10000*50%*50% = 2500 gp
That’s 7000-8000 gp, a bit below your 8500. That said, I might be under-valuing early access to fey form.
| OmniMage |
I'm not sure where to begin. This is a complex magic item.
First off, who is the intended user for this item? Its not as powerful if its a Paladin grabs it instead of a Wizard.
Part 1 seems to replace spells. This part doesn't rely on luck.
-Replace Summon Monster spells with Summon Nature's Ally spells.
-Replace polymorph spells with Fey Form spells.
Now the next part. You flip a coin and get one of 2 effects.
If heads, you roll a d6 and the result will give you a bundle of 9 spells, 1 for each spell level. Lasts for a day.
If tails, you get the Fey Obedience feat. You get a random deity, and must do a ritual to gain powers. There are 9 fey deities, so I'd handle this by rolling a d10. The 10th result I'd let the player choose which deity they get. Lasts for a day.
Then ioun stones that grant a feat are 8,000-10,000 gp
Ioun stones are slotless items, so their prices are doubled. Feats are worth about 5000 gp.
| OmniMage |
I estimate the item to be worth 180000 gp. Let me break down the math.
Replaced spells: 2000 gp. I'm not really sure how to price this, so I'll give it a small price.
Spells: 9*9*1500 gp = 121,500 gp. 8*8*1500 gp = 96,000 gp. I'm skipping levels 1 to 7. 121,500 + 96,000 = 217,500 gp. I'm using 1500 as base instead of 1000 because that's the number pages of spell knowledge use.
Feat: 5000 gp.
Total: 2000 gp + 217,500 gp + 5000 gp = 224,500 gp. Give it a 20% discount since you can't really control what spells/feats you get at a time = 179,600 gp. I'll round it up to 180,000 gp.
| Joynt Jezebel |
Omnimage- I am not disputing your costings as per the rules at all.
But... I guess this is the reason most magic items are almost never purchased or crafted by PCs.
It is easy to get twice the power out of half the 180,000 GPs you cost the item at.
Taking off 20% because you have no control over what you get seems, well stingy. And you don't give anything off because of its drawbacks'
| Pizza Lord |
I estimate the item to be worth 180000 gp. Let me break down the math.
...
Spells: 9*9*1500 gp = 121,500 gp. 8*8*1500 gp = 96,000 gp. I'm skipping levels 1 to 7. 121,500 + 96,000 = 217,500 gp. I'm using 1500 as base instead of 1000 because that's the number pages of spell knowledge use.
...
I don't understand your using 1,500 instead of the 1,000 multiplier for spell pages. You say that's what spell pages use, but I can see that they use spell level squared x 1,000.
Price 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th)
Assuming a character had nine pages of spell knowledge (summon nature's ally I–IX) that would be 285,000 gp for the nine items.
If these were all combined into one item, it would be cheaper, as there's a rule for multiple similar abilities on a slotless item.
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
That would come to 199,000 gp (81,000 (level 9)+ 48,000 (75% of level 8) + 70,000 (for 50% levels 1–7)).
Using a 20% drawback reduction would bring the cost down to 159,200. Adding in the other costs you have (2,000 and 5,000 gp) would bring it to 166,200. That's using spell pages as a rubric (which is fine). Ultimately I don't think it really equates to that level of power (obviously that's debatable and opinion). Granted, a page of spell knowledge (9th) is technically worth 81,000 gp regardless of the spell on it, but some spells are better than others. This item has very specific and restricted spells (even if the list for some gets randomized). Most of the time a user will end up paying the cost for at least 50% of spells that are already on their list with no option. As opposed to someone buying a page of spell knowledge where they can specifically get a spell that will add to their list and that they specifically want (which for me would account for a greater cost reduction in most cases overall).
It's why I didn't go with the spell page pricing myself despite mentioning that it would be the go-to pricing method. And of course, this pricing is only mentioning the spells added to the user's list, not other abilities. As always, it comes down to art, not science and even people that agree on most aspects can have wildly varying prices and outcomes.
| OmniMage |
Omnimage- I am not disputing your costings as per the rules at all.
But... I guess this is the reason most magic items are almost never purchased or crafted by PCs.
It is easy to get twice the power out of half the 180,000 GPs you cost the item at.
Taking off 20% because you have no control over what you get seems, well stingy. And you don't give anything off because of its drawbacks'
I'm not really sure what you are saying here.
Taking off 20% because you have no control over what you get seems, well stingy. And you don't give anything off because of its drawbacks'
I'm not quite sure if taking 20% off because you can't control its effect was the best idea. I'd could probably find a better reason for a cost reduction.
It is easy to get twice the power out of half the 180,000 GPs you cost the item at.
I take it you are saying that you could much more mileage by crafting it instead of just finding it during an adventure? Yeah thats true, but crafting 2 180,000 gp items will normally take a year (craft time of 180 days x 2). Time might be limited depending on the campaign.
Christopher Van Horn
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Truthfully, this item does to much that is unpredictable, and pricing will always be based on not whether it is useful to you, but whether it is useful to anyone who picks it up. A sorcerer can use the spell access a lot better than a prepared caster can. The randomness of it feels like it should be less random and more DM choice, as the whims of the Fey take control or give you quests. I think it works better as a Fey artifact, where the Eldest's will passes through it, maybe granting some more powerful abilities but also being a bit more tailored to what is going on. I think if you work with your DM on it you will have a much better time using it, and may give you slightly more control of things than the random useless item that really won't do much for you.
Just my 2 cents though.
| Zepheri |
I just don't understand how can you lose the ability to cast some spell and replace it with other one, so for instead I'm a sorcerer the spell is not suppressed but forgotten, and if I'm a wizard the spell are erase from my spell book
As for the price I will suggest to use the staff model to calculate the price and divide the results by 6 since you will get 1 of the 6 spell list each day or none if you get tail
| Pizza Lord |
I just don't understand how can you lose the ability to cast some spell and replace it with other one, ...
I think the intention is that as long as you have the item (and are benefiting from it), then you can't cast summon monster spells. You still 'know' the spells, you just can't cast them and instead cast summon nature's ally in its place. If you prepare spells, the summon monster spells aren't erased from your spellbooks, you just prepare summon nature's ally when you attempt to prepare them.
Obviously we can go into fringe cases, like can you use a wand of summon monster? Probably not, since the wording is that it's not on your list.
If you have summon monster prepared in your spell slots already can you cast it and it comes out as summon nature's ally or do you need to clear it and refill it with summon nature's ally?
If you just toss the item away, and you have summon monster prepared, can you now cast it (losing any access to summon nature's ally you got from the item) and then go pick it back up?
These are all important questions for the user of the item and their GM. Thankfully, they aren't the questions we're being asked to help with.
| Azothath |
I will comment that Fey Form spell for casters is actually the best Polymorph out there and getting it early is a double boon. Humanoid forms with languages, hands for casting, improved ACs, usually some hiding/stealth/invisibility, every caster wants to be a pixie/quickling caster. So this is a power gain IMO.
The wording has to be clear on what exact spells are lost and gained and the duration of that effect. A wide brush ("all polymorphs") will lead to trouble. Will it also cover casting via magic item like a Page of Spell Knowledge?
Sum Natr Ally(SNA)... Augment Summoning feat still applies. SNA does lack the "*" allowing simple templates but the creatures Alignment still matches the caster possibly allowing alignment tongues in cases where the Ally is sentient. Speak with Animals spell spans some lower level casting classes. So I think it is a wash on the power exchange.
Again, the wording has to be clear on what exact spells are lost and gained. A wide brush ("all summonings/conjurations") will lead to trouble.
Adding a spell every spell level is a gain, see Page of Spell Knowledge. At least this has an existing price comparison. Whether the user can cast it is a moot point for pricing as we assume there's a discount involved which covers that.
As a backup for non-casters there should be an equivalent Spell-like Ability gain based on HD or Level [1/d] on the domain spell list so you can avoid a class discount.
Fey Obedience - another power gain and I assume it is only the First one of the 3. Personally I don't see the deities doing this as it cuts into their faithful. It does not rely on spellcasting so that's a real plus (no discount) and the rituals are usually quite easy and just take an hour.
Rather than a coin, flip/tap/kiss the blarney tablet. If it becomes a holy symbol you got the applicable obedience access, otherwise you got a engraved tablet with spells.
| Northern Spotted Owl |
I should have been more clear that this item applies to prepared casters. Your spellbook (or witch familiar) may or may not include additional spells any given morning. These may or may not be spells you would want to actually memorize.
First session I got deific obedience with Count Ranalc. This obedience was easy to perform, granting my character:
"You gain a +4 sacred bonus to AC against attacks whenever you are denied your Dexterity bonus (such as in a surprise round or when paralyzed)."
Potential utility: a +4 sacred AC bonus is pretty attractive, though this one is fairly situational.
Actual utility: none, as this didn't occur.
Azothath -- I like the "flip the tile" idea quite a bit. That is now canon.