This is NOT a question about the Spellstrike ability, just spell combat.
Spell combat requires "wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand" to use. Can the base magus use it to cast a spell, then make ranged attacks with a thrown starknife, dagger or similar thrown melee weapon?
As a related question, can the eldritch archer archetype select a starknife, dagger or similar thrown weapon as their arcane bond and use it it with their ranged spell combat?
From what i can find, there's two schools of thought about this stuff:
1: The weapon is always part of the melee weapon table so its always a melee weapon and not a ranged weapon regardless of how you attack with it.
2: The weapon is a ranged weapon and a melee weapon because it has a range increment and can be used to make ranged weapon attacks.
This has implications on rulings for other things, like attacking into melee, rapid shot etc, so most tables seem to opt for the latter interpretation but i'm trying to find something relatively definitive because most of what I can find is from very old threads.
(It doesn't make too much difference to me if i have to take the Eldritch Archer Archetype or not, but I would like to know. And yes, I'm aware other magus archetypes exist, such as myrmidarch and card caster.)
It would technically depend on when you cast the spell, i.e. you need to cast first thing before you throw your weapon, or you need to get it back somehow (star toss style or ricochet toss come to mind) to cast at the end of your full attacks.
Again technically nothing stops you from casting normally when you have a weapon in hand and an otherwise empty hand, see every cleric ever, but you aren't getting to make attacks at the same time. That's what spell combat is for.
So by RAW, you just need to be careful with having your weapon in hand, although admittedly by a fairly reasonably RAI, as soon as you start treating a melee weapon as a ranged weapon, it should just be considered a ranged weapon (thus requiring eldritch archer/myrmidarch/etc.)
In Pathfinder, active abilities and stuff that triggers upon using the weapon in combat check for how it is actually used; physical properties (hardness etc.), permanently chosing a weapon (or weapon type), as well as anything that tries to modify a weapon (including weapon enchantments), goes by what the weapon is listed as in the weapon table (for the size it was crafted for).
1: The weapon is always part of the melee weapon table so its always a melee weapon and not a ranged weapon regardless of how you attack with it.
This "school of thought" is objectively false:
First off, the Bastard Sowrd FAQ clearly establishes the concept of a weapon counting as different things at different times.
Second, let's look at the attack roll rules:
"" CRB pg. 179
So clearly, if a weapon is considered a melee weapon at the time of attack, it uses strength, and the only alternative is it being considered (at the time of attack) a ranged weapon. Now let's look at the ability score description:
"" CRB pg. 16, emphasis mine.
What is the throwing axe listed as?
"" CRB pg. 142
The throwing axe is listed as a melee weapon, but the rules also say when throwing it you apply your dex mod to the attack roll, which the rules only state to be the case for ranged weapons. The rules are only working if at least some things that say "ranged weapon" check how you actually use them.
By the way, many ranged combat feat, including PBS, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot, use the term "ranged weapon", too, if a thrown melee weapon would count as a melee weapon, they wouldn't work with such a weapon.
So to circle back around; thrown starknives and daggers, are they melee weapons enough to count as such for spell combat? Are they ranged weapons enough to count as such for the eldritch archer's ranged weapon bond?
"No" and "no".
There is no "enough", it's a matter of circumstances. Spell Combat is an active ability and is thus checked how you use the weapon. When you make the selection for Ranged Weapon Bond, you don't actually have the object yet (for a 1st level character starting as Magus, at least), and thus the list entry is the only thing it can go by. Every melee weapon can be thrown, so checking for that cannot be correct else the limitation was meaningless.
Of course, the Eldritch Archer's Ranged Spell Combat does work with thrown weapons, because just like regular Spell Combat, it checks how you use the weapon.
I find it vague enough to go either way. But the bigger problem is could you only throw once.
Maguss, Spell Combat:
When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
As long as we are on this topic, how about a sharding weapon?
Found this:
Grick's assessment does seem pretty air-tight, and matches up with JJ's summation of the matter. JJ did choose to leave either option though and not make a definitive ruling, this might be one of those things that's really worth FAQing if you want a set answer.Can we get a link to James Jacobs' answer on this? Because to me it's Malachi's assessment that seems airtight.Grick linked in JJ's discussion of the matter in the 6th post down from the top of the thread.
But here it is again :)
This quote is from Michael Sayre who appears to currently have the tag of "Design Manager", and is linking a post from James Jacobs "Creative Director" and they both seem to be saying that thrown melee weapons are still melee weapons and don't count as ranged weapons even when thrown. Is there anything out there more official than these two sources to contradict this?
The old "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." Bit of text appears to be the only RAW thing beyond the weapon table categories to go off of. And that can be read in two ways; either only weapons ineffective in melee can be ranged weapons (barring specific exceptions), or alternatively weapons that can be thrown are also treated as ranged weapons. Im not seeing where it says that the type of weapon changes depending on if youre attacking in a certain way, as generally things in pathfinder dont change type/categorisation unless rules explicitly say they do.
So based on either of these a thrown starknife must either be still classified as a melee weapon and useable with spell combat or be classified as a ranged weapon and able to be selected with ranged weapon bond. I cant find a credible source that says its neither.
Can you link me errata, faq answers or dev quotes that contradict the RAW or these paizo staff quotes?
(To be clear, i wouldnt be surprised if said contrary links existed, i just want to compile them if they do)
This quote is from Michael Sayre who appears to currently have the tag of "Design Manager", and is linking a post from James Jacobs "Creative Director" and they both seem to be saying that thrown melee weapons are still melee weapons and don't count as ranged weapons even when thrown. Is there anything out there more official than these two sources to contradict this?
First, those aren't official sources. Second, as I layed out in my first post, if a trown melee weapon wouldn't count as a ranged weapon for anything, it wouldn't even use dex-to-attack, something the CRB explicitly says to be the case. What JJ said is at odds with the rules.
Im not seeing where it says that the type of weapon changes depending on if youre attacking in a certain way, as generally things in pathfinder dont change type/categorisation unless rules explicitly say they do.
Except that's exactly how then FAQ I linked in my first post confirmed the Bastard Sword to work. "The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon. For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it."
Yes, it's not explicitly said for thrown weapons (just like it wasn't spelled out in the book for the bastard sword), but what I opened my first post with is the only way to do it that doesn't invalidate some rule.
As i mentioned in a different post. I like to have rules that follow the same logic.
we have rules about how we treat weapons and weapon abilities that depend on their use.
- If you use a magical spear as an improvised weapon it longer get to add it's magical abilities to that attack.
- you must use a magical weapon to attack to gain it's magical abilities (was in the FAQ for defending weapon). so you must attack with the weapon to gain the defending power.
as such I like to HOUSE RULE that when in doubt and the rules are not clear enough a weapon count for what one use it for.
look at the chakram for example. that thing is in the 'thrown', 'heavy blades' and 'light blades' weapon groups. for me that mean it count as each when used as such.
to sum, to me, when the spell combat asks for a melee weapon in the spell combat ability it mean that it must be used as such while using the ability. after which, if you have more attacks, you could maybe throw it as well. But when using spell combat the first attack with the melee weapon MUST be a melee attack.
(note that the free attack from using a touch spell and spell strike do not count for this, I'm talking about the normal attack gained from the spell combat ability)
Let's look at the attack roll rules:
"" CRB pg. 179
So clearly, if a weapon is considered a melee weapon at the time of attack, it uses strength, and the only alternative is it being considered (at the time of attack) a ranged weapon. Now let's look at the ability score description:
"" CRB pg. 16, emphasis mine.
What is the throwing axe listed as?
"" CRB pg. 142The throwing axe is listed as a melee weapon, but the rules also say when throwing it you apply your dex mod to the attack roll, which the rules only state to be the case for ranged weapons. The rules are only working if at least some things that say "ranged weapon" check how you actually use them.
Ignoring that you're drawing false equivalencies between throwing weapons and the handedness of a bastard sword (something that has been explicitly addressed by staff and is not a decent comparison) earlier in post, I object to your example of throwing axes. You say "when throwing it you apply your dex mod to the attack roll, which the rules only state to be the case for ranged weapons." as the crux for your argument for them being ranged weapons, but the rules never refer to them changing their weapon category and the "You apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to:" section you quoted only references "ranged attacks" not "ranged weapons" (attacks=/=weapons) and even lists spells, which are also not ranged weapons.
You can make ranged attacks with any number of melee weapons, improvised weapons and even spells, but that doesn't make them ranged weapons. The ability score section is a clear example of specific trumps general applying. The (very) general rule (given weapon finesse, tiny creatures using dex for melee etc etc) of strength for melee weapons, dexterity for ranged weapons, is established in one section, then the ability score section specifically lists out both ranged weapons and non ranged weapon examples of things that can make ranged attacks using dexterity.
And IF you decide that they should be treated as ranged weapons because they can be used to make ranged attacks it seems odd to say that they also aren't ranged weapons for all the eldritch archer's class features that specify ranged weapons based on timings of possible events in a 6 second round of combat.
I think the problem here is a lack of clarity/consistency in the core rulebook to establish it indisputably, but I still believe the two paizo staff members addressing the melee vs ranged weapon topic pretty much directly is the closest thing I have to go on as nothing has directly contradicted their stance yet, even if those posts are quite dated at this point.
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This is NOT a question about the Spellstrike ability, just spell combat.
Spell combat requires "wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand" to use. Can the base magus use it to cast a spell, then make ranged attacks with a thrown starknife, dagger or similar thrown melee weapon?
No.
Spell Combat (Ex):
...
As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
A standard Magus must make his attacks with a melee weapon. What kind of weapon a weapon is is determined by how you use it. If you throw a weapon it is a thrown weapon at that time.
Ignoring that you're drawing false equivalencies between throwing weapons and the handedness of a bastard sword
I did no such thing. I merely said the FAQ "clearly establishes the concept of a weapon counting as different things at different times.", and that is indubiously true.
the "You apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to:" section you quoted only references "ranged attacks" not "ranged weapons" (attacks=/=weapons)
No, it mentions "ranged attacks", but what it references are the attack rules, which do indeed say "ranged weapon".
The attack rules say "Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier". This portion does not say "melee attack", and therefore, if a thrown starknife counted as a melee weapon for the resolution of the attack, it would have the above attack bonus. But since a throw is indubiously a ranged attack, this would put it at odds with the rule that says "you apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to: • Ranged attack rolls".
The ability score section is a clear example of specific trumps general applying.
No, it's not. Both are general rules that explain the default, nothing trumps the other.
The (very) general rule (given weapon finesse, tiny creatures using dex for melee etc etc) of strength for melee weapons, dexterity for ranged weapons, is established in one section, then the ability score section specifically lists out both ranged weapons and non ranged weapon examples of things that can make ranged attacks using dexterity.
The (very) general rule (given weapon finesse, tiny creatures using dex for melee etc etc) of strength for melee attacks, dexterity for ranged attacks, is established in one section, then the attack rules section specifically lists which weapon type uses which ability score.
See what I did there? Your argument that you call "a clear example of specific trumps general" can be made in reverse and it works just as well - which makes neither argument "a clear example", and is a good indication that neither is true.
and even lists spells, which are also not ranged weapons.
But if you abide by the principle I layed out, that rules handling an attack check for how you attack with the thing in question, there is no contradiction.
If you apply my principle to spells, they do not count as weapons for permanent selections or enhancements, but they do count when you actually make attack rolls with them. Now compare that to what I quoted right above from the FAQ - it matches 100%.
And yes, this also doesn't explicitly talk about melee and ranged weapons used in different ways... but what it and the bastard sword FAQ do is establish a pattern that explains the otherwise contradictory abilitys score and attack rules. My interpretation makes melee/range weapons, spells with attack rolls, and bastard sword, all behave according to the exact same principle. It even explains the improvised usage of magic weapon FAQ that zza ni alluded to. Everything is consitent, everything is covered by rules.
One easy way to check whether ones rule interpretation is correct is to see whether everything is covered by rules. If the attack rules really only cover melee weapons and ranged weapons as indicated solely by their list entry in the equipment rules, then where are the rules on what the attack roll of a spell like Scorching Ray is? The ability score section says you apply your dex mod to ranged attacks, but what other component is paert of the attack roll? Nothign says so, for example no rule other than the one in the attack section says you use your BAB.
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Those are the rules for a Wizard archetype. Not particularly relevant when speaking of a Magus ability.
Then there is the action you use. The question was about Spell combat, a full-round action that allows multiple attacks based on BAB and spell combat.
The Wizard ability is a single attack, without iterative. Often a standard action, but potentially a swift or full round, depending on the spell being cast.
While interesting, I don't think we can get any useful information from it.