"Key" class skill proficiency increase tax


Rules Discussion


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Good day, night or whatever time of the day you are reading this post.

I have been wondering for a while why classes like Bard and Swashbuckler do not get automatic proficiency for their main skill (Performance and Acrobatics respectively) while Inventor gets free increases to their crafting skill at the earliest level possible when they could gain said increase with the normal skill increase choice.

I understand that Bard doesn't necessarily key off of Performance for any of their main abilities unless they pick specific feats unlike the Inventor does with Overdrive, but the same can't be said about Swashbuckler who will always use Acrobatics or the other skill related to their style to gain Panache which is their main class feature. That being said if a bard is not upgrading their Performance proficiency then what kind of bard are they really (a caricature of one perhaps - though that I'd argue is a specific character concept and not the norm).

It occurs to me that this creates a sort of illusion of choice and skill proficiency increase tax for those classes, while other classes do not necessarily have such a tax (druids don't have mandatory reliance on Nature, Clerics on Religion, not to even mention Sorcerers, Oracles and so on).
Some might say - well a certain class will still have abilities that synergize with some skills better so they will just pick those - while I can see reason in this statement, I'd argue that they still do not have an "obligation" to increase said skills and could just go any route and they are often not MAD enough (looking at you fighter and ranger especially) that they can just pick their 4th ability to boost and thus have respectable bonus to whichever skills they decide to boost.

I have tried to think of a couple of reasons why automatic skill proficiency would be undesirable, but those I came up with are not really convincing:
1. "Performance can be used to earn income" - Crafting can be used to the same effect and to craft items for the party. This can't be the reason.
2. "Swashbuckler gets free 'style feats' at levels so giving them a automatic proficiency increase progression would be too much" - and giving rogues double the amount of increases and skill feats isn't? - this also feels weak as an argument.
3. "Swashbuckler can just pick up Acrobat dedication to get free scaling in one of their main skills" - if that's the reason then why isn't there an archetype that does that for Performance or any other skill (Society excluded, even though the access to that dedication is limited, and let's not count Inventor dedication + Brilliant Crafter because it's multiclassing and costs two feats instead of one).

I have tried to find a similar thread both on this forum and on reddit (admittedly I didn't spend too much time looking), however searching for "bard performance proficiency" or "skill proficiency tax" has not produced an answer (or I have not noticed one). If there was indeed a post about this before, I'd appreciate someone pointing me to it (whether as a reply or a PM if posting external links poses a problem).

I would really love to "hear" your thoughts on this (it'd be amazing if Paizo developers decided/were allowed to join this thread and disperse some of the fog around the topic).

Cheers.

P.S. I tried looking for a "Design questions" subforum but didn't find one. Please excuse me if I posted in the wrong subforum and move it to the right one.


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They are remastering swash right now!

Wait until Player Core 2 through...


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It's funny how this works... someone starts wondering why things aren't the same after one thing comes along that is different and they notice, but it's somehow not "can someone explain to me why it's fair for Inventor to automatically improve crafting?" to actually make the thing that is sticking out as unique make sense, it's "how come I don't get that?"

The basic answer is that fair and equal aren't always the same thing, and that not all classes - and not even just the few you bring up by name - need to have what inventor gets in order for them to be fair options because they get their own stuff.

Classes are different where possible because those differences create a feeling that each is a choice that it matters to make. If you're talking about automatic skill progression in whichever skill is automatically proficient and the reason you bring it up is because some other class gets it, you might as well be arguing that all classes should get 12 hit points per level (not as a slippery slope, but because that's something that is equally 'mysterious' as to why it's not a more wide-spread feature when it would clearly be helpful so its an analog that highlights the flaw in reason behind asking the question "how come I don't get that?").


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I suspect that the reason bards don't have automatic proficiency progression in Performance and swashbucklers don't have automatic proficiency progression in Acrobatics is that the developers simply did not consider it important. They were willing to tax the character.

The bard is one of the original Pathfinder 2nd Edition classes, when Pathfinder 1st Edition was viewed as the standard. In PF1 maintaining a skill at maximum ranks costs a skill point every level. PF2 keeps some of that mindset, that the player must sometimes spend resources to keep the character good at what they do. The tight math of PF2 insists that weapon proficiency, spell proficiency, saving-throw proficiency, and Perception proficiency automatically progress not too fast and not to slow for the class, but skills are closer to a personal choice by the player. Lagging in a skill does not cripple a character. The bard's spellcasting DC and spell attacks, including compositions, have automatic proficiency progression, but bardic spellcasting does not depend on maximum Performance skill.

Nairne wrote:
I understand that Bard doesn't necessarily key off of Performance for any of their main abilities unless they pick specific feats unlike the Inventor does with Overdrive, but the same can't be said about Swashbuckler who will always use Acrobatics or the other skill related to their style to gain Panache which is their main class feature. That being said if a bard is not upgrading their Performance proficiency then what kind of bard are they really (a caricature of one perhaps - though that I'd argue is a specific character concept and not the norm).

I recently had a player play a swashbuckler in a short campaign. The swashbuckler Blade Slinger had the Battledancer style, which works via Performance skill. Yet instead of maximizing Performance with his skill increases, he took the Acrobatic Performer skill feat and made the Battledancer's Perform checks with his Acrobatics skill. He did maximize Acrobatics. The player wanted Blade Slinger to be flamboyant, always leaping or swinging into action. The showiness of Battledancer appealed to him, but he had no interest in Performance beyound those leaps and bounds.

Building automatics proficiency progression in Performance into Battledancer style would not have interested the player. Building automatics proficiency progression in Acrobatics would have benefited the player, but he was so focused on Acrobatics that he had no complaints about spending his first skill increase on it. He did not care about delaying the advancement of any other skill until 4th level.

Furthermore, some classes are intended to be more skilled than others. Most classes gain one skill increase at every even level. Rogue and Investigator instead gain a skill increase at every level starting with 2nd level. That is 9 additional skill increases by 20th level. Those two classes are designed to be more skilled than average. An automatics proficiency progression in a skill offers 3 additional skill increases, denoting that the class is more skilled than average, but not as skilled as Rogue and Investigator. Are Swashbucklers supposed to be more skilled than average? Bards with Enigma muse gain Bardic Lore to make them more skilled with Recall Knowledge, and bards with Polymath muse gain Versatile Performance to move some social interactions to Performance checks, mimicking additional skill proficiencies without actually granting additional skill proficiencies. Apparently, some bards are supposed to seem a little more skilled, but not as much as an automatic proficiency progression would offer.


Nairne wrote:

it'd be amazing if Paizo developers decided/were allowed to join this thread and disperse some of the fog around the topic....

P.S. I tried looking for a "Design questions" subforum but didn't find one. Please excuse me if I posted in the wrong subforum and move it to the right one.

I have been reading these forums since 2010. The developers used to comment and explain their reasoning behind the Pathfinder rules to resolve rules arguments here. They discovered that commenting from authority did not settle the differences of opinion. Instead, some people would start arguing with the developers themselves! The arguments grew more heated. Thus, the developers stopped posting. A few Paizo people, such as James Jacobs, will speak up in non-argument posts to share a little flavorful lore with the fans. But they avoid anything that could spark a flamewar.

Since they don't talk about design, we don't have a Design Questions subforum. However, if you are interested in design (I love game design), we have design discussions during the public playtests of new classes, such as this year's War of Immortals playtest back in September.


Nairne wrote:
I have been wondering for a while why classes like Bard and Swashbuckler do not get automatic proficiency for their main skill (Performance and Acrobatics respectively) while Inventor gets free increases to their crafting skill at the earliest level possible when they could gain said increase with the normal skill increase choice.

My couple of thoughts:

Bard, Swashbuckler, Etc were created first. Inventor came later and was an experiment to see if automatically increasing important skills would cause the class to become too powerful. Also see the comparison in proficiency between Bard's Bardic Lore and Thaumaturge's Esoteric Lore.

Some skills are more generally useful than others. Getting automatic increases in Crafting or a limited use Lore skill that can only be used for identifying creatures (or upgraded with a feat to allow recall knowledge) is less valuable of a skill increase than an automatic increase to Acrobatics (which is what a lot of people want for Swashbuckler) or Athletics (which is what you are arguing for for a Gymnast Swashbuckler).


Yeah, Paizo design has improved since the first core and the apg. That's why inventor and thaumaturge get their free boosts. I strongly suspect the remastered swashbuckler will have some automatic skill progression.

Alchemist too probably.

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