I am checking my reading of the new Remaster version of Discern Secrets.
Previously Discern Secrets read as follows:
You call upon your patron's power to better uncover secrets. When you Cast the Spell, the target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive. The target gains a +1 status bonus to the skill or Perception used for the roll, and this bonus remains as long as you Sustain the Spell. The target is temporarily immune to discern secrets for 1 minute.
So when I cast the spell on an ally, the ally immediately makes one action of their choice between Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive. They also gain a +1 status bonus to that action as well as any other actions of that type that they use for the duration of the spell.
The new version is:
Your patron deigns to whisper a few secrets. The target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive as a free action. The target gains a +1 status bonus to the statistic used for the roll (a skill or Perception) on the roll and as long as you Sustain the spell. The target is temporarily immune to discern secrets for 1 minute.
So when I cast the spell on an ally, they do not immediately take an action out of turn. They instead get an ability granted by the spell to make Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive actions as a Free Action for the duration of the spell. They also still get the +1 bonus to all such actions taken.
I am checking my reading of the new Remaster version of Discern Secrets.
Previously Discern Secrets read as follows:
You call upon your patron's power to better uncover secrets. When you Cast the Spell, the target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive. The target gains a +1 status bonus to the skill or Perception used for the roll, and this bonus remains as long as you Sustain the Spell. The target is temporarily immune to discern secrets for 1 minute.So when I cast the spell on an ally, the ally immediately makes one action of their choice between Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive. They also gain a +1 status bonus to that action as well as any other actions of that type that they use for the duration of the spell.
The new version is:
Your patron deigns to whisper a few secrets. The target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive as a free action. The target gains a +1 status bonus to the statistic used for the roll (a skill or Perception) on the roll and as long as you Sustain the spell. The target is temporarily immune to discern secrets for 1 minute.So when I cast the spell on an ally, they do not immediately take an action out of turn. They instead get an ability granted by the spell to make Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive actions as a Free Action for the duration of the spell. They also still get the +1 bonus to all such actions taken.
I agree with your reading of RAW. However, I suspect this was not the intent. For one thing, the Free Action has neither a trigger nor a frequency, which means it can be done over and over again in one turn, which can't possibly be RAI. I don't know if it should have a frequency of "1/round" or "once." So check that with your GM before relying on it.
the Free Action has neither a trigger nor a frequency, which means it can be done over and over again in one turn, which can't possibly be RAI. I don't know if it should have a frequency of "1/round" or "once." So check that with your GM before relying on it.
Checking first would certainly be a good idea.
However, the actions themselves have limits to their repeated use. Recall Knowledge has an increasing DC when used on the same information and cannot be retried after a failure. Sense Motive and Seek could only reasonably be used once on a particular target creature or area respectively. You would quickly run out of targets for those actions even if you are allowed to use them an indefinite number of times.
Just noting that Seek actions do not have a once per target or area limit as far as I am aware. It would actually be pretty absurd if it did, as that would mean you could never find something even if it was Pointed Out to you.
It looks like they wanted just to clarify mechanics of the spell 'now you can make a check as a free action', but really made a new effect of infinite actions... Why for me it looks like that? Because it's still only 'for the roll' (singular) and sustaining is still talking only about retaining bonus. Also, TGtBT: Hypercognition still exists, and it's only 6 RKs for an action and a 3rd rank slot.Your patron deigns to whisper a few secrets. The target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive as a free action. The target gains a +1 status bonus to the statistic used for the roll (a skill or Perception) on the roll and as long as you Sustain the spell. The target is temporarily immune to discern secrets for 1 minute.
I don't understand what you're saying here. You wouldn't retain a bonus for a roll that is already complete. The only way that spell text can make sense is if the bonus can apply to subsequent checks.
Also, hyper cognition might exist, but so does Ongoing Misery and Evil Eye, and I'd argue those are much more powerful abilities the witch loses access to gain Discern Secrets. The Inscribed One also has a pretty weak familiar ability. Discern Secrets is the only hex cantrip which retained its one minute immunity clause, and I can only really justify that decision if they also intended to buff it. Hyper cognition also just always seemed like a badly designed spell TBH when you account for limits on Recall Knowledge.
Because of those limits and the high opportunity cost, unlimited Recall Knowledge doesn't actually feel like a problem to me. Unlimited Seeks is a different story, though. It kinda trumps the whole keen senses ability because it means you'll find every hidden thing around you, including traps you're not proficiency gated from.
Definitely needs some clarification.
Also, Reason Rapidly also exists. It gives 5 Recall Knowledge checks for one action with no additional resource cost or restrictions on use.
I am detecting a trend. Discern Secrets is available exclusively to Inscribed One Witch. Reason Rapidly is available exclusively to Investigator. Neither is even available to the respective multiclass archetypes. The one that is more generally available costs a significant daily resource.
Am I the only one who reads this not as "oops, they made it unlimited" but as "The trigger for that free action is the witch casting the spell"? It seems like common sense. They probably should have kept the "When you cast the spell" part, but still...
Just noting that Seek actions do not have a once per target or area limit as far as I am aware. It would actually be pretty absurd if it did, as that would mean you could never find something even if it was Pointed Out to you.
Also noting that Seek is a Secret check. So the character is unable to discern if they fail the check and would have no knowledge that they needed to try again in order to succeed.
That's why it's not written like that. It's not 'to the roll'. It's 'to the statistic used'. You just retain the bonus. And actually can do checks again. But not for free. It's exactly how it worked before.
So... Literally changing the wording doesn't actually change how an ability works. It must still work exactly as it did before...
Because...? Tradition?
I'm really not following the logic here.
Because the rest of the spell refers to "the roll". That doesn't make any sense if its not 1 singular check,
You say 'the rest of the spell' as though you aren't talking about one single sentence.
One sentence that is referring to what is in fact a single check made as a single action each time that the action is used. And it has a varying check depending on which type of action is chosen each time.
Or are you also claiming that once the target makes their first free action Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive action that the bonus locks in on that particular action type and wouldn't give its benefit to any of the other actions in the list? So if the target first makes a Seek action to find the hidden creature, then wants to make a Recall Knowledge check to identify it (whether that costs them an actual action or a free action) that they wouldn't get the +1 status bonus to that Recall Knowledge action because Discern Secrets is now only giving out bonuses to Seek actions.
And I had no doubts is worked like that before either: 'bonus to the skill or Perception used for the roll, and this bonus remains'. I still don't know how to read this in other way.
The wording of the previous version was different. It did work as you describe.
But if you read the current version without referencing or knowing about the previous version, the wording clearly says that it behaves differently than what you are insisting on. Read it without the preconception of the previous version - otherwise you are insisting that the writers are never allowed to change anything.
Your version only works if the number of rolls is unlimited. If it's only one roll, it's only one [skill or Perception].
Your version only works if you add back in the words removed from the second sentence.
The target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive as a free action.
That sentence does not give any limits or frequency. I have to assume that the writers did not forget how a Free Action works. It is a fundamental type of action.
This sentence:
The target gains a +1 status bonus to the statistic used for the roll (a skill or Perception) on the roll and as long as you Sustain the spell.
works just fine by being applied to any one of the rolls that the target makes due to the ability of the first sentence.
Just to clarify, the OP wants "The target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive as a free action" to be something the target can do an infinite number of times for the duration of the spell?
Just to clarify, the OP wants "The target can Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive as a free action" to be something the target can do an infinite number of times for the duration of the spell?
That is how I am reading and interpreting the spell effect text currently, yes.
I belive that there are limits to the number of Free Actions a GM will permit in a given round, but I am unable to find a reference for that. In any case, there are practical limits to the amount of times that Recall Knowledge, Seek, and Sense Motive will be useful in any one round.
Just noting that Seek actions do not have a once per target or area limit as far as I am aware. It would actually be pretty absurd if it did, as that would mean you could never find something even if it was Pointed Out to you.Also noting that Seek is a Secret check. So the character is unable to discern if they fail the check and would have no knowledge that they needed to try again in order to succeed.
So? If you have infinite checks you'd just roll 20 of them to be sure. And you'd roll them in every 15 foot burst and 20 foot square in sight, too. It just breaks the game.
So? If you have infinite checks you'd just roll 20 of them to be sure.Just noting that Seek actions do not have a once per target or area limit as far as I am aware. It would actually be pretty absurd if it did, as that would mean you could never find something even if it was Pointed Out to you.Also noting that Seek is a Secret check. So the character is unable to discern if they fail the check and would have no knowledge that they needed to try again in order to succeed.
That - I would shut down quickly for toxic metagaming. It is a secret check. The character has no knowledge that they failed or that there is anything there to find. As a GM, I would simply not allow repeated attempts for a Secret check like Seek or Sense Motive.
Seeking on every area in sight - sure. That seems on-theme with the ability though too. The Patron whispers to you where the important things are - as long as you are observant enough to notice them.
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That - I would shut down quickly for toxic metagaming.
It feels kind of weird for a GM to give someone the ability to make infinite free checks and then complain about them being a toxic metagamer for using that ability.
“Lord, grant me sensible rulings where the text is unclear, but not yet.” - GM Augustine
That - I would shut down quickly for toxic metagaming.It feels kind of weird for a GM to give someone the ability to make infinite free checks and then complain about them being a toxic metagamer for using that ability.
Even if they weren't free actions and the player wanted to re-Seek the same area for a second action of their turn - why should that be allowed? Why would they do that, and for what purpose?
If nothing changed - why would the player expect to get a different result than what they got with the first check? That check that they didn't see... right?
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The game rules are only an approximation of reality.
This conversation seems to be devolving.
If the game developers didn't intend for the spell to give an ability to use Recall Knowledge, Seek, and Sense Motive as a free action with no restrictions or frequency limits, then the spell needs errata because that is literally what the spell says that it does. And Captain Morgan already put this on the Remaster errata thread, so that is the best that we can do on that front.
If it is intended for the spell to give unlimited Free Action use of Recall Knowledge, Seek, and Sense Motive, I don't consider that too good to be true because of the limitations of those actions inherently.
If you don't play with those restrictions on Seek and Sense Motive at your tables, then you may also want to tweak Discern Secrets too to match that expectation.
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I'll note Sense Motive DOES explicitly have limited uses, unlike Seek. I think people often misplay it by allowing Sense Motives after every sentence the players suspect could be a lie, but that is explicitly not how it works.
That - I would shut down quickly for toxic metagaming.It feels kind of weird for a GM to give someone the ability to make infinite free checks and then complain about them being a toxic metagamer for using that ability.Even if they weren't free actions and the player wanted to re-Seek the same area for a second action of their turn - why should that be allowed? Why would they do that, and for what purpose?
If nothing changed - why would the player expect to get a different result than what they got with the first check? That check that they didn't see... right?
This is easy to answer. If an enemy is hidden to a PC because an ally used Point Out on the enemy or the enemy used Hide without Sneak, a PC needs a successful Seek action to make the enemy observed. You might fail your first attempt but you still know there's something there and can try again.
In exploration mode, you'd have less reason to search the same area multiple times but there's nothing stopping an exceptionally paranoid character from doing it anyway. If the cantrip allows unlimited Seeks, it can already search a 500 foot radius area of forest or hills one single cast. It isn't any crazier to say it can search one 20 foot long hallway REALLY thoroughly for traps.
And if this was intended, you might as well also just say it grants you an automatic success on seek checks instead of a bonus because if you roll enough times you'll get a nat 20 eventually. (Assuming you were mathematically capable of succeeding with a nat 20 boosting your tier of success.) It's total lunacy. And you house rule restrictions on Seek to keep it from going off the rails, but it still wouldn't stop you from searching an absurdly large area in less than a second. You're basically just admitting the ability can't possibly work as intended which then forces you to question if it should also give more than one RK action.
Also writers maybe can't forget rules but they very much can make mistakes, especially in fine wordings and in haste.
In Starfinder writers sometimes probably never knew the rules.
Is there any other ability in the game that offers unlimited free action uses of other actions?
Sounds wildly out of proportion in power for a cantrip to me.
For Seek:
Investigator has Expeditious Inspection which does have a frequency limit. But doesn't cost any other resource.
There are a couple of other things that have been mentioned earlier in this thread - but they also have either a quantity or a frequency limit.
As a funny example:
Procyal Philosophy will only give the Aid bonus once per round, but a particularly indecisive character could switch who that bonus goes to an infinite number of times during their turn.
RK all creatures in combat, then all your allies, then all creatures you've met in the campaign, then all NPCs present and absent, then all things in the dungeon, then all things outside, then all Golarion, elemental planes and gods' abodes, gods themselves, all of magic, know more than Nethys, ascend and break the Universe.
Meh. Do you have something besides hyperbole?
As a 10 minute exploration activity you get 300 RK or Seek actions. No loopholes needed.
Well, maybe only 199. The GM could say that doing 2 mental actions per round is an Exhausting exploration activity. But still...
In exploration mode, you'd have less reason to search the same area multiple times but there's nothing stopping an exceptionally paranoid character from doing it anyway. If the cantrip allows unlimited Seeks, it can already search a 500 foot radius area of forest or hills one single cast. It isn't any crazier to say it can search one 20 foot long hallway REALLY thoroughly for traps.
If Seek doesn't have any practical limits on retries, then the game is already broken in this manner. Forget doing 20 Seek actions to find all the traps that you aren't proficiency gated from detecting - do 200.
I've said everything needed saying. Now I'm content with just having fun.Meh. Do you have something besides hyperbole?
Fair enough. I can respect that at least.
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Is there any other ability in the game that offers unlimited free action uses of other actions?
Sounds wildly out of proportion in power for a cantrip to me.
For Seek:
Investigator has Expeditious Inspection which does have a frequency limit. But doesn't cost any other resource.
There are a couple of other things that have been mentioned earlier in this thread - but they also have either a quantity or a frequency limit.
As a funny example:
Procyal Philosophy will only give the Aid bonus once per round, but a particularly indecisive character could switch who that bonus goes to an infinite number of times during their turn.
So the best theoretically comparable abilities, as I see it, are the Investigator feat Reason Rapidly and the 3rd rank spell Hypercognition.
They're an exchange rate of 1 action for 5 and 6 recall knowledge actions, respectively.Everything else mentioned has a time-based usage limit (or is fully useless, in the case of Procyal Philosophy).
To me, it seems a witch cantrip at heightened 0 exceeding the power of a 12th level class feat and a 3rd rank spell is probably not what was intended by the developers.
As written, I see how people are reading it that way, but as written it just sounds too good to be true to me.
To me, it seems a witch cantrip at heightened 0 exceeding the power of a 12th level class feat and a 3rd rank spell is probably not what was intended by the developers.
My big takeaway from this thread is that Seek itself needs errata to have some limits on retry put on it. Apparently the Secret trait isn't enough on its own.
As for Discern Secrets, having a frequency or trigger limitation on the Free Action probably should be added in errata.
Having the granted action be a one-time usage when cast, but not when sustained, seems rather limiting though - especially since the spell still has the 10 minute immunity.
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To me, it seems a witch cantrip at heightened 0 exceeding the power of a 12th level class feat and a 3rd rank spell is probably not what was intended by the developers.My big takeaway from this thread is that Seek itself needs errata to have some limits on retry put on it. Apparently the Secret trait isn't enough on its own.
As for Discern Secrets, having a frequency or trigger limitation on the Free Action probably should be added in errata.
Having the granted action be a one-time usage when cast, but not when sustained, seems rather limiting though - especially since the spell still has the 10 minute immunity.
If I were in a home game with such a witch, I'd probably try to talk the GM (assuming it isn't me already) into running it as: "Once per round", "Once per round and when cast", or possibly "When cast" and removing the 10 minute immunity per target.
iirc, a lot of the witch cantrips removed the duration immunity to make them more spammable for their primary effect.But I don't have the book on me atm, so I can't fully verify that.
Every last '1 minute immunity' was removed... Other than for Discern Secrets.
Curse of Death and Restorative Moment (both are rank 5 Major Lesson Hexes) still have a 1 day immunity after the spell ends. But those are the only other temporarily immune entries on any of the Hexes.
My big takeaway from this thread is that Seek itself needs errata to have some limits on retry put on it. Apparently the Secret trait isn't enough on its own.
I don't really agree. Seeking multiple times is expensive and, given that it's a secret check, you have no way to know what your odds are even if you're confident there's something to find.
It's only when you decide to give your player unlimited free action Seeks that you run into a problem.