Hello,
in remaster, by default, Learning spells has the following rule:
To learn the spell, you must do the following:
• Spend 1 hour per spell rank, during which you must remain in conversation with a person who knows the spell or have the magical writing in your possession.
Witch class, ability familiar, has the following rule:
It can learn any spell on your tradition’s spell list by physically consuming a written version of that spell over the course of 1 hour. This can be a scroll of that spell, or you can prepare a written version using the Learn a Spell exploration activity.
(Italics mine.)
1) How long does the latter method take in total? Is it:
a) 1 hour, which the consumption of the scroll/writing takes
b) 1 hour per spell rank, which is how long Learn a Spell takes by default
c) 1 hour + 1 hour per spell rank, which is both above combined
d) Something else?
To add a bit more of a challenge, let them take feat Magical Shorthand:
Learning spells comes easily to you. When you succeed at Learning a Spell, it takes 10 minutes regardless of the spell’s rank.
2) How long does it take now?
a) 10 Minutes, assuming Magical Shorthand overrulesb) 1 hour
c) 1 hour + 10 minutes
d) Something else?
to 1)
If I had to follow the section in Witch class by the letter (RAW), my own guess would probably be 1 c).
Although (Opinion) I wouldn't like that a witch now took longer to learn spells than all other classes. (It would mean cantrips and 1st rank spells effectively taking twice the time.) I can see a counterargument "But the familiar...!", though.
to 2)
This gives me a hard time. Actually (and I feel I bit awkward to say this) I am wondering, if Magical Shorthand had been truly taken into account, when the new Witch Familiar "Learning Spells" section was written.
I'd probably decide for the simplest (and most rewarding) route and take 2 a), arguing that Magical Shorthand was the big equalizer.
I could still see why someone would argue for 2c), again. However, I'd personally find 2 c) very disappointing; learning cantrips and 1st rank spells in 7 times[!] the time all other classes with Magical Shorthand would need...
What are your thoughts? And if, by chance, a developer who knows how it was intended should stumble over my question: I highly value your clarification.
(And if it was one I don't like. Never mind. My Witch could still ask their Patron (GM) for a house rule. Or need more patience.)
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It seems it takes 1 hour per spell rank to prepare the written version and then 1 hour to consume it.
With Magical Shorthand it'd be 10 minutes and 1 hour.
I agree that Magical Shorthand is rather useless (unless you learn a spell through another Witch's Familiar).
On the other hand, being able to learn a spell in 1 hour whatever its level and without a check if you have a scroll of it is absolutely awesome.
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It's the familiar who consumes it, so they should be able to do so while riding on your shoulder or in a satchel, while you do some other activity. Perhaps sleeping, if you hand it the writing at bedtime. Or when the party is about to have its own meal.
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Crafting that special scroll is just a reflavoring of the Learn a Spell activity. So things that apply to Learn a Spell - such as Magical Shorthand - would apply to that special scroll creation process.
The process of the familiar absorbing the knowledge from the scroll is a custom and unique process that would only be modified by Witch feats - and I am not aware of any that do so.
So I am going with c) in both cases.
And I agree with Fuzzy-Wuzzy that the absorption process can be done at a separate time as the scroll creation process, and that it can be done independently by the familiar rather than needing active supervision by the Witch character.
I believe Witches do not have to utilize the Learn a Spell activity to gain spells, and merely use it to instead have their own unique method of gaining a spell.
Wizards traditionally have to expend gold in materials and do a check, with feats to increase odds of success and potentially reduce costs (and time).
Witches instead have to either have a physical copy of the spell (i.e. a scroll or spellbook), and if one doesn't exist, it can instead be made via the Learn a Spell activity like what Wizards do.
So, while Witches can benefit from the typical Arcana feats, they don't learn spells any faster as they gain level or take said feats. I have a feeling this is an oversight and maybe could be fixed with errata/handwaving, but RAW, Familiars can only learn 24 spells per day.
Familiars can only learn 24 spells per day.
Well, sure. Absolutely true.
But is that a limit that you are going to reach in any practical sense considering the monetary costs?
Thanks, SuperBidi, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, and Finoan for the quick answers. They helped me to broaden my understanding.
Additionally, your suggestion to (if I may put it:) separate "Learn a Spell" activity - to first create the ad-hoc writing - and the consumption, is actually a very viable mitigation of my timing problem. It takes a bit of a leap of faith - realizing that "Learn a Spell" (exploration activity) and "[familiar] Learning Spells" is not the same. Yet it makes really sense to handle it that way. It allows the Witch to prepare expandable scrolls and (ad-hoc) writing from "Learn a Spell" in advance - incl. allowing Magical Shorthand Witches to "rapid-fire produce" the writing in 10 min blocks - and then let the familiar consume on its own afterwards, whenever quiet moments allow.
I think I actually start to like it, for it provokes atmospheric imagination now and also somewhat reconciles the whole process to Magical Shorthand.
Legacy (APG) vs Remaster (PC1) / Feedback + Lessons Learned:
At this point I do want to give positive feedback regarding the relevant passages of description of spell learning - Legacy (APG) vs Remaster (PC1).
It can learn any spell on your tradition's spell list by physically consuming a scroll of that spell in a process that takes 1 hour. You can use the Learn a Spell exploration activity to prepare a special written version of a spell, which your familiar can consume as if it were a scroll.
In the APG version, the different methods of learning - i.e. either from (exiting) scrolls or from (ad-hoc scrolls created in the course of) Learn a Spell - are somehow "in parallel". Something about the flow of sentences and information was not ideal. The link between both methods was flawed, IMHO. Actually we had misunderstandings in our own group. Someone did not realize at first, that Witches(+Familiars) could also learn from other sources (like teachers, spellbooks) and were not doomed to always rely on (existing) scrolls. And I, apparently, did not get that the ad-hoc writing created in the course of Learn a Spell perhaps was meant to be funneled through the 1 h Scroll consumption time bottleneck all along. I thought that the time to consume the ad-hoc writing was already paid of during Learn a Spell Activity. Looks like I handled it incorrectly, in the past.
BTW: This was also why I had not noticed what I perceive as Disharmony between Witch's "Learn as Spell"-based learning and Magical Shorthand Feat. The "consume as it were a scroll" had simply not been interpreted as "this needs +1 h, too" ...
Now reading Remaster ...
It can learn any spell on your tradition’s spell list by physically consuming a written version of that spell over the course of 1 hour. This can be a scroll of that spell, or you can prepare a written version using the Learn a Spell exploration activity.
this integrates the methods of learning much more organically. Although I don't like the 1 h extra delay I originally had not accounted for - and I still question the Harmony between Familiar Learning Spells and Feat Magical Shorthand - I do think that the section became more consistent.
And as said, with the "familiar can consume on its own"-ruling, I think this should work, even if the group is traveling frequently and there is little time for "Learn a Spell".
Darksol, Faerien, I didn't want to ignore you. Our messages just crossed.
I believe Witches do not have to utilize the Learn a Spell activity to gain spells, and merely use it to instead have their own unique method of gaining a spell.
Wizards traditionally have to expend gold in materials and do a check, with feats to increase odds of success and potentially reduce costs (and time).
[...]
My current understanding was that Learn a Spell worked for Witches analogously. Meaning, everyone needed:
- Source (person who knows or regular writing)- Materials (effectively bought by money)
- Time to learn (by default 1h/Rank)
- The Skill check
Are there indicators that some of these could be skipped when Witches use the activity?
(Means, when they don't want to use the method of sacrificing an already existing scroll and instead prepare the (ad-hoc) written version of the spell.)
That would be interesting... I always thought that Wizards and Witches tend to be the literally poorest of spellcasters because that need to invest immense money into Learn a Spell...
I always thought that Wizards and Witches tend to be the literally poorest of spellcasters because that need to invest immense money into Learn a Spell...
That is somewhat accurate. Though I would also include Magus on that list for the same reasons.
The costs of learning spells is not any different for spontaneous spellcasters such as Sorcerer, Bard, Oracle, or Summoner either. But because they are unable to quickly change which spells they have available to cast, they have much less incentive to learn a great many spells.
The only classes that have notable differences are Druid and Cleric who are given the learning of their tradition's common spells without any cost. That is where the outlier data is.
I always thought that Wizards and Witches tend to be the literally poorest of spellcasters because that need to invest immense money into Learn a Spell...That is somewhat accurate. Though I would also include Magus on that list for the same reasons.
The costs of learning spells is not any different for spontaneous spellcasters such as Sorcerer, Bard, Oracle, or Summoner either. But because they are unable to quickly change which spells they have available to cast, they have much less incentive to learn a great many spells.
The only classes that have notable differences are Druid and Cleric who are given the learning of their tradition's common spells without any cost. That is where the outlier data is.
You bring up an interesting question. Do spontaneous casters that don't use spellbooks (so no Arcane Evolution Sorcerors and no Esoteric Polymath-Bards) have to spent money for learning common spells? (I thought the answer was "No", but that doesn't have to mean anything.)
Regarding Clerics and Druids getting everything for free: Right, they are really lucky in this regard. :-) Worth a lot, pure gold. On the other hand: In contrast to the money-depending-learners, they have their spiritual rules and restrictions (role-play / lore-wise and in terms of game mechanics), must serve their deities or nature, respectively. So I generally think, it's OK.
That being said, I could also live with skipping Witch/Wizard Spell Learning Money costs. (Unless I learn that this was too bad for balance.) Guess the consideration was that full casters needed less money for weapons and defensive equipment. I'm not sure about that, though.
You bring up an interesting question. Do spontaneous casters that don't use spellbooks (so no Arcane Evolution Sorcerors and no Esoteric Polymath-Bards) have to spent money for learning common spells? (I thought the answer was "No", but that doesn't have to mean anything.)
It is debatable.
Spontaneous casters automatically learn a certain number of spells in their repertoire. Just like Wizard, Witch, and Magus also automatically learn a certain number of spells as they gain levels.
If a spontaneous caster wants to change their spells using downtime Retraining, then that has an undefined cost.
In some cases, you’ll have to pay your instructor.
But I would use the cost of Learn a Spell for that cost.
Regarding Clerics and Druids getting everything for free: Right, they are really lucky in this regard. :-) Worth a lot, pure gold. On the other hand: In contrast to the money-depending-learners, they have their spiritual rules and restrictions (role-play / lore-wise and in terms of game mechanics), must serve their deities or nature, respectively. So I generally think, it's OK.
I'm not sure I would consider "Can't wantonly harm animals, but can defend yourself from animal attacks" as equivalent to having to spend hundreds of GP on learning spells in order to actually feel like learned prepared casting is on-par with spontaneous casting or classes that know all their spells for free.
You bring up an interesting question. Do spontaneous casters that don't use spellbooks (so no Arcane Evolution Sorcerors and no Esoteric Polymath-Bards) have to spent money for learning common spells? (I thought the answer was "No", but that doesn't have to mean anything.)It is debatable.
Spontaneous casters automatically learn a certain number of spells in their repertoire. Just like Wizard, Witch, and Magus also automatically learn a certain number of spells as they gain levels.
If a spontaneous caster wants to change their spells using downtime Retraining, then that has an undefined cost.
In some cases, you’ll have to pay your instructor.But I would use the cost of Learn a Spell for that cost.
You're right, there is this retraining cost; I forgot. I also forgot about Magus. Shame on me. (Really like the concept of books&swords magic/fighting-hybrid.)
[...]I'm not sure I would consider "Can't wantonly harm animals, but can defend yourself from animal attacks" as equivalent to having to spend hundreds of GP on learning spells in order to actually feel like learned prepared casting is on-par with spontaneous casting or classes that know all their spells for free.
See what you mean. Admittedly, as a witch, I am envious of the my Wisdom-caster buddies' free choice; as a cleric I am happy.
Apart from that, anathema forwards and backwards, there has always been more to me, to truly be a devotee of deity or the forces of nature. Including components that pose restrictions. Though restrictions can all-in-all be pretty atmospheric and engaging to have in the game - and ideally fun for the whole group. (That's the best way for an RPG, IMHO.)
Maybe this has been more of a character role-playing issue, all the time. This reverence and (attempting to) live the ideals of your faith. Etc. Yet, to me these classes always felt remarkably different, at least to some extend. Among this a strong principle of give-and-take. It expects the more from one, the more one has been given.
(Example: "You have been allowed to pray for any of these abilities without further studies? - You will take that offer as a burden to fulfil your duty and serve your call.")
Idk, if it's understandable what I write and comes across what i mean.
There are two elements at play
Optional- prepare a written spell via learn a spell, this interacts with magical shorthand and takes the relevant period of time
Mandatory- the familiar consumes the scroll or written spell, this takes 1 hour flat. It is not impacted by magical shorthand.
The main advantage of this system is that if a witch has a scroll or doesn't want to risk a failure or crit failure stopping them from learning a spell. They can sidestep the need for a check. But it does mean they will never learn spells like a wizard with magical shorthand will.
On that note in my second AV group the wizard happily spends time mid dungeon learning new spells.