It's hard to argue that you shouldn't be allowed to have a bird familiar, or that a bird familiar shouldn't be able to fly (aside from penguins). Once birds can do so and can get other abilities like manual dexterity it's hard to argue that non-bird familiars shouldn't fly, or that it changes game balance for them to. So I consider flying familiars a foregone conclusion. But that doesn't mean they can do everything a flying PC could do.
ISTR a long-ago discussion concluding (more or less) that a familiar's Bulk limit is Light. Pushing their limit down to negligible would prevent a lot of flying shenanigans while still allowing scouting. For instance, the GM could have made your egg big enough to have non-negligible Bulk. And a 50' rope is Light, so they couldn't carry one across a chasm. (They could carry a string, but it's harder to solve the problem with that.)
This question has come up in this thread already but I'll repeat it: how much can a familiar carry?
[...] ISTR a long-ago discussion concluding (more or less) that a familiar's Bulk limit is Light. Pushing their limit down to negligible would prevent a lot of flying shenanigans while still allowing scouting. For instance, the GM could have made your egg big enough to have non-negligible Bulk. And a 50' rope is Light, so they couldn't carry one across a chasm. (They could carry a string, but it's harder to solve the problem with that.)
But sure, If your group gets into scenes where this is undesired, I've little to no ground to argue against possibly different preferences.
Side-Note: Until brought it up here, I'd never thought about a character stepping into an extradimensional-space-providing-Container to let it be carried over by a familiar. I'm actually torn between being impressed about the clever idea and considering it an undesired exploit.
Then again, there is summoning, that IIRC allows to get creatures with similarly variable or even more impactful abilities to be called - at least for 1 min.
Considering the concrete scene with the egg, I guess there is a lot group variability. Plus - at least that's my impression - a lot of liking or disliking familiar activities might be somehow linked to the saying: "It's not what you say, but how you say it." Respecting other people on the table and allowing them to have their spotlight as well (and sometimes this might be the GM and their challenge), which means sometimes keeping one's familiar close instead of pushing it into every action to triumphantly solve every challenge others wanted to experience.
For instance: If I had been GM and set up the egg challenge, I might have accepted the easy shortcut for the challenge without big deal - as long if it was one of many challenges and everyone (incl. familiar) had their scenes during the session.
On the other hand, If I had put a lot of effort into it and wanted it to be a special atmospheric moment -- I'm inventing this now and not state this actually happened for Outl's group! -- but then everything trended towards imbalance, maybe even slightly antagonistic gameplay, perhaps with the familiar owner's player behaving extraordinarily triumphant about stealing the show or the like ... idk, maybe I had felt some sort of displeasure, too. Although I generally like capable familiars.
Anyway, back to your suggestion to limit carrying to just negligible:
If it was a blanket limit under every circumstance, it would also affect many areas. Consequently, it would prevent a lot of utility outside flying. Just think of the trope of a familiar helping the wizard or witch with studies, fetching scrolls, assisting with alchemy etc...
I could however think about a compromise to make that limit more flexible and tied to situations. For instance: Stating that while flying it could carry only negligible bulk; but allowing it to carry more while on the ground or in the water. And/or introducing a level-dependant capacity, with letting the familiar get stronger as it levels up. Etc.
Just my two cents and opinions. ;-)
Addition: Remembering discussions laden with hundreds, or even thousands of messages on minion and familiar related topics, I hope I don't get too much into own arguing. I much desire this stays a vivid and constructive clarification thread. If necessary, I'll exercice patience. Sometimes prayers get answered. ;-) At least that's what they say in Golarion.
[...]
This question has come up in this thread already but I'll repeat it: how much can a familiar carry?
Nod. The dawn brings new light.
Into the Corgi Mount feat text:
The smallest of fey have ridden corgis as mounts since time immemorial, leading to a pattern on corgis' backs called a “faerie saddle.” You have formed a magical connection with a corgi that can serve as your mount. Your corgi familiar is Small rather than Tiny, and it's appropriate for use as your mount, unlike most familiars. It has the scent ability, which counts against your limit for familiar and master abilities as normal. Furthermore, it can never gain a familiar ability that grants it any Speeds other than a land Speed. If you're a pixie, you can't ride a corgi due to your Size, but you can take this feat to gain a corgi familiar.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I know about the corgi rules. I meant the general rule that says that "Nothing keeps their Fly speed when you mount them unless it specifically has the Mount special ability."
For the record, I'm not arguing that there isn't such a rule. I've just never looked into it flying mounts before, and I'm having trouble locating any mention of that rule.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm also only seeing that rule stated in a section specifically for animal companions.
Which also feels like an oversight. But I'm not sure on that. There are scenarios where someone may want to summon a flying creature to use it as a mount for a combat that involves flying (instead of casting a Fly spell or other such thing). Being blanket ban prevented from doing that would be difficult to get around.
I'm also only seeing that rule stated in a section specifically for animal companions.
Which also feels like an oversight. But I'm not sure on that. There are scenarios where someone may want to summon a flying creature to use it as a mount for a combat that involves flying (instead of casting a Fly spell or other such thing). Being blanket ban prevented from doing that would be difficult to get around.
The rules on the topic do seem pretty thin. For that matter, I can't find any description of the mount special ability. It seems like that would be in the Animal Companion section since it is mentioned in that sidebar. I wonder if it might end up in the remastered bestiary instead.
The rules on the topic do seem pretty thin. For that matter, I can't find any description of the mount special ability. It seems like that would be in the Animal Companion section since it is mentioned in that sidebar. I wonder if it might end up in the remastered bestiary instead.I'm also only seeing that rule stated in a section specifically for animal companions.
Which also feels like an oversight. But I'm not sure on that. There are scenarios where someone may want to summon a flying creature to use it as a mount for a combat that involves flying (instead of casting a Fly spell or other such thing). Being blanket ban prevented from doing that would be difficult to get around.
The fact that there is no general rule about flying mounts (or any other type of speed other than land) only specific rules for rideable companions and familiars means that in practice it is not prohibited to ride flying creatures from level 1.
That said, we know that PF2 is designed so that until level 6 (which is the last level before the fly spell appears) it expects players to not be able to fly. However, there is no general rule precisely because the GM may want to make exceptions due to the story he is telling, but the basic idea is that up to this level the creatures, traps and other challenges are designed waiting for the players to be on the ground.
I know that this is also not a clear rule, just a context that is arrived at after seeing that the game simply does not give access to flight speed to players before this level along with a note from the Ancestry Guide.
Flying PCs: Certain ancestries, such as strix or sprites, have wings. The presented ancestry rules intend to provide a good combination of story and game balance for most groups. However, some players might have character concepts that don't fit this assumption and might wish to fly from initial character creation. At the GM's discretion, the GM can grant these PCs a 15-foot fly Speed, replacing any other abilities that involve flying, such as the strix's Wings ancestral trait. In this case, any feat that upgrades the PC's flying capabilities, such as the strix's Fledgling Flight and Juvenile Flight feats, might instead upgrade this Speed by an additional 5 feet. However, GMs who allow this option should be aware that a PC who can constantly fly can trivialize many low- and mid-level challenges, consistently outshining or leaving other characters behind; the GM should consider this option very carefully before allowing it and adjust the game accordingly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do think it’s odd that they didn’t place Protect Companion in the Player Core…
I don't think that is odd. Protect Companion is from Secrets of Magic. Not from CRB or APG.
Yet it was an exception. Most SoM spells keeps and will keep the same. I don't expect a SoM remaster just compatibility adjustment and some errata fixes and clarifications.
But Gouging Claw is from SoM and is in the Remaster.I do think it’s odd that they didn’t place Protect Companion in the Player Core…I don't think that is odd. Protect Companion is from Secrets of Magic. Not from CRB or APG.
Sure. But still, Player Core is not big enough to hold all of the spells from every non-core book printed so far.
Is Gouging Claw used as a class feature granted spell for something? Druid perhaps?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Protean Form wizard school grants it.
|
I do consider the flying rule to have an impact. In PFS, for instance, I remember one challenge was to retrieve an egg from a treacherous treetop. At level 1, I was just like "I'll tell my familiar to fly up and get it." Twas awkward for the GM to shut that down.
Ha! I had my owl familiar do the same thing in the same scenario, with the same befuddled GM reaction.
For instance: If I had been GM and set up the egg challenge, I might have accepted the easy shortcut for the challenge without big deal - as long if it was one of many challenges and everyone (incl. familiar) had their scenes during the session.
For context, this whole adventure was one big obstacle course, so there were *lots* of challenges, using a familiar to circumvent this one was not a big deal. And, interestingly, it was in some ways counterproductive, because climbing the tree gave you an opportunity to learn a *clue* about your antagonist so the solution by familiar left you with just a little bit less info about the final battle.
Generally speaking, though, a flying familiar isn't qualitatively better than Mage Hand, just a little more flexible with more range.