A lot of people don't even run their PF2 games in Golarion because they want a non-kitchen sink setting. Golarion is fine as a theme park to hang APs from but poor at almost anything else.
This is just not true - everyone in my circle that plays PF2E plays it specifically in part because of Golarion, and most don't even use the APs. Golarion is the best original fantasy setting for any tabletop out there, imo.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Does anyone have more thoughts on how Arcane fits into Golarion as is?
I feel like the PF1 vs PF2 thing is a ship that sailed a long time ago and has already been debated to death, but I'm curious if anyone has more thoughts on the actual setting we have in front of us.
I really want more information about Jatembe discovering or rediscovering it, as well as more about the runelords coming to it. It would be pretty cool to discover that there might be different Origins of wizardinv on different continents. Like the discovery of it could have been simultaneous.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think we'll get any major revisions to the spell list, but, just as a thought exercise, I'd like to share what I would do if it fell to me.
I'd want Arcane to be the tradition of forces, objects, and the "now". Light and shadow, elemental powers, gravity manipulation, crafting (walls, snares, pits, constructs, all of that). As secondary focuses, I'd add divination (particular ones that show you things happening now versus past or future), body and object transformation, transportation, and every type of energy that damages (to include spirit for at least 1 wizard school). Edit: Teridax had a good phrase for this idea: reality manipulation. Much more concise way to put what I was thinking about.
I'd then set occult to be primarily about people. Emotions, communication, perceptions, stories, histories. Maybe even go as far as to eliminate the occult skill and just use society. Definitely remove oozes from their skill and put them on Arcane. It can still be the "weird" tradition because, let's face, people are weird. And when the world isn't weird enough we go make or find some more.
I think that would give both traditions something solid to be based on, while still fitting into the outlooks of their core caster class. Of course wizards would study forces and their effects, and of course bards would learn about people.
Like I said, that's just what I would do. I thought of this while brainstorming new traditions for starfinder. I think a focus on forces and objects would create a good throughline from wizards right into technomancers, which would be cool to me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really want more information about Jatembe discovering or rediscovering it, as well as more about the runelords coming to it. It would be pretty cool to discover that there might be different Origins of wizardinv on different continents. Like the discovery of it could have been simultaneous.
I seem to recall mentions of him learning whispered secrets from the severed head of Ydersius and travelling to Axis among the tales of his epic journey and it's just excellent. The stuff myths are made of.
By this logic, the fact that [insert GM here]'s PCs killed General Azaersi at the end of Ironfang Invasion means that she is dead in-setting. However, she demonstrably isn't, because Paizo decided not to kill her off, and they're the ones publishing the books.
That's just how it goes.
IMO every gaming group's experiences at the table define their unique version of Golarion and its universe. So the fact that in Paizo's version of Golarion General Azaersi is still around is not relevant to the Golarions of those table where the General was eliminated. Now if Paizo publishes something that because it acknowledges or makes use of the fact that the General is still alive, the Paizo version of Golarion differs from some others, those for whom that is not true will have to amend what Paizo publishes if they want to make use of it. Maybe, General Azaersi being dead, some other hobgoblin leader has taken her place. Maybe something else. But in any case where the table history deviates from Paizo's table's history, those adjustments will need to be made.
That's just how it goes. :-)
I really want more information about Jatembe discovering or rediscovering it, as well as more about the runelords coming to it. It would be pretty cool to discover that there might be different Origins of wizardinv on different continents. Like the discovery of it could have been simultaneous.
Canon says that the Alghollthu taught magic to the humans who were or became the Azlanti. Old-Mage Jatembe and the Ten Magic Warriors brought wizardry to the Mwangi Expanse in -3502AR, some 1500 years or more after Earthfall, which destroyed the Azlanti Empire. Maybe Jatembe rediscovered magic in the ruins of Azlant, maybe they got it from somewhere else.
The Ghol-Gan Empire of the Cyclopes was centered around what is now the Eye of Abendego, extending both east and west of that place, and predated Azlant. Maybe that's where Jatembe found magic, since the Cyclopes clearly knew of it. So probably did the Serpentfolk, whose civilization also predated Azlant.
Whether the Alghollthu taught magic to the Serpentfolk or the Cyclopes either before or simultaneously with their teaching the humans of Azlant is currently unknown. There may be multiple sources for knowledge of wizardry in the world, including spontaneous discovery.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It seems to me that many ttrpg gaming systems fail to underlie their development with a consistent framework for magic. Pathfinder in particular, because of the way it evolved from D&D, ended up trying to build a structure on top of the existing system. Secrets of Magic is a great book, but it doesn't make consistent the system that evolved before it with its own internal inconsistencies.
P.E.I. Bonewits, in Authentic Thaumaturgy, proposed such a framework. It has its problems, but it is at least internally consistent. All sapients have, to some degree, psychic abilities, abilities of the mind that can, in the right circumstances, manipulate the world around the user. There are also Laws of Magic (Law of Symmetry, Law of Contagion, etc.) So a magic user is someone who has discovered how to use his psychic abilities and the Laws of Magic and his access to "mana" (that which powers magic) to cast spells - the mechanics of which involve putting himself in the right frame of mind to access his abilities. In this system the difference between "magic" and "miracle" is a matter of power level - mortals just don't have the capacity to do "miracle" on their own, but they can channel power from the gods to do it.
Another decent framework is N. Robin Crossby's "Pvarism", an elemental philosophy which proposes that there are six elements (Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Metal, and Spirit) and there are also Neutral spells, most of which manipulate elemental spells in some way. Magic starts out in this philosophy only limitedly defined (there are only a few hundred pre-defined spells). Mages are expected to develop their own spells, and a consistent mechanism is provided for this. Priests have their own philosophies, and their rituals ("miracle" since the power comes from the gods) are not "magic" and "magic" is not "miracle". This system has the somewhat arbitrary basis that in the game world the Shek-Pvar (mages) and the major churches have agreed that "magic" and "miracle" are different things and that neither group will intrude on the other's prerogatives (which does not preclude an individual from being a member of both groups so long as he doesn't confuse them). Here, the six elements cover more than their names imply - in Pathfinder terms Illusion is an Air thing, Necromancy is an Earth thing, the Art of the Smith is a Metal thing, Cold is associated with Water, and so on.
Anyway, Secrets of Magic proposed a framework of magic for Golarion, and now we're in the middle of rebuilding that framework because of the OGL problem. I suppose if we'd started with a good framework built on the eight schools we'd be in the same place now but I'd still like to see a consistent underlying framework even if it takes us far away from traditional D&D approaches to magic.
|
There is an underlying influence on the Wizard and the Arcane tradition which is that the Wizard's casting is historically based on INT.
So, we associate Arcane with Wizard and with INT, hence the idea of studying to decipher, understand and master magic as the root of what Arcane is.
Even though the Witch is also an INT caster that can deal in Occult and Primal and Divine.
Even though the Sorcerer and the Summoner can use Arcane magic without using INT.
It is this divergence from the INT-based magic equals Arcane ancient paradigm that gives us all these headaches trying to make all of it fit harmoniously together.
Historically, we had this commonly seen opposition between reason and faith, INT and WIS, Wizard and Cleric, Arcane magic and Divine magic.
All the inventions since then have added welcome complexity to this simplistic basis. But they have also steadily muddied the waters.