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Continuing my playtest experience analisis level by level now in lvl 3 and last chapter of Plaguestone.
Its still a speedrun playtest of Fall of Plaguestone because we already have all the things done and I want to test the Soldier too and because the soldier's playtest only goes up to level 5, we chose to play a low-level adventure.
I won't describe the full adventures here because its too much to be written and instead I will go directly to my impressions and observations.
This playtest will focus into animist only. For other classes I will post my impressions in their respective forums.
Party composition
A human Animist
A half-orc Exemplar
A half-elf Soldier (from SF2 Fieldtest)
A hobgoblin Alchemist
Build
My animist still an DPR focused blaster. As normal in this level my animist only got her 2nd-rank spells, spiritual fortitude and take fleet as general feat and improved my atletics to expert (I'm getting athletics in order to improve my leap with Powerful Leap in next level to able to increse the Sustaining Dance range).
As usual I put heal in my 2nd-rank spell slot because it's very hard the get a more useful spell from divine tradition to keep prepared. (and once again I used all my healing spells again in this level + some scrolls)
Impressions
At this level it became clear to me what I had already theorized. Earth's Bile's progression actually leaves her considerably weaker when you move away from her level (or the level at which she receives Heightened), effectively at this level where I don't yet have 3 focus points, making her effectively weaker than the Electric Arc.
Still, it had its shine when I needed to face 8 Orcs Brute at once, especially since the persistent damage is extremely effective against creatures that have Orc Ferocity.
Additionally at this level I had considerable problems fighting in very tight spaces (like 3x5 rooms and similar). In the 2 fights I had in these places I was forced either to not be able to useEarth's Bile or to give up on it otherwise the party members would suffer friendly fire. Especially when targets are close to corners with nearby allies, the AoE of the spell would become prohibitive.
Another situation where it also proved to be very ineffective was against bosses of medium size or smaller. Because it simply prevents flanking and causes the party to have to choose. Either flank and prevent the Animist from using Earth's Bile's or give up flanking and have to deal with an opponent with a considerably higher AC without access to the main form of off-guard. Probably this could create some party discussion between players once it will forces someone to have to give in.
Another spell that proved completely unusable in small spaces was Garden of Healing for the same reasons as the AoE that Earth's Bile's suffers from, but here due to the risk of healing enemies.
And this is where the main problems with these spells actually lie. They are your main weapons, but they can be completely useless if the situation is too unfavorable for them. So it is necessary to build some alternative in Build, which in my case due to the low level is the Electric Arc. At higher levels I will probably need to prepare some spell slots with damage spells.
Garden of Healing has now become more interesting in combat as it heals more, however the main positioning problems and the extra consumption of actions resulting from this continued to make its consistent use in combat unfeasible, still keeping it reserved for healing outside of combat.
Another thing that worried me was at a time when I had 2 close fights with no time to refocus. This prevented me from using the Garden of Healing (but the Exemplar who needed the healing was the one who could do it alone) and I ended up using my second focus point to support the Earth's Bile's once again.
And that will probably be a very valid concern going forward. If you are forced into a situation where you cannot refocus, your class is practically disarmed if you have already spent everything.
That said, I continue with my initial ideas so far. Earth's Bile is not as good as many people think (it is still inferior to martial strength melees and two-handed weapons), and AoE, while it is a blessing against multiple MOBs, is a problem against bosses and if the spell really needs to be nerfed at some point, that point would be precisely the AoE, which could be reduced to a square.
Garden of Healing is good outside of combat, inside combat it is complicated, and as already predicted, when the GM doesn't want to give you time to refocus, you'll probably be in a situation where you won't have focus points to spend on it. So don't be afraid, it seems like an OP out-of-combat cure, but it just seems like it, in actual use and effectiveness it doesn't make any practical difference.
But interestingly, I would like the class to have some quick focus recovery feat like Desperate Prayer[/b] and [url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3671]Strain Mind, this would help a lot in emergency situations to have at least 1 focus point.
Otherwise, the class experience continued to be fun and very consistent. It was the one who had the most stable performance, neither surprising nor failing too much.
I just tried out Earth's Bile. At level 5, so I think that is again right after the heightened bump happens. The damage amount wasn't a problem.
I have a full writeup of that that I am working on.
But if I was to change Earth's Bile, I wouldn't shrink the AoE - I would just prevent the overlapping area from being effective. If a target could take damage from the spell only once per round per caster, then it would be fine.
Having it be a fairly large AoE does make it more interesting. Good in some situations, and hard or impossible to use well in others.
The problem is that it is you main "weapon" if you restrict it too much it will nerf down the Animist too much for such dmg builds only restricting it to be effective against a very large ammount of targets.
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Why is one focus spell your main weapon?
Not even Psychic or Oracle really feel like they only have their focus spells to use.
Maybe Wild Shape Druid could say that they one-trick their one focus spell.
Psychic also uses its AMPs as main weapons too. Without it you are reduced to cantrips and 2 spell slots per level and the class is clearly focused into the AMPs to a point the also starts with 2 focus points get its 3rd point at level 5 and can use Strain Mind if need an extra point at cost of some HP.
Oracles for other side use their focus as triggers to improved the curse benefits making their Revelation spells more auxiliary yet they got some more options using domains spells too.
You will always have a second focus spell available to you. This is where the channeled has a massive advantage over the sage, but if your two apparitions both have AoE effects that affect enemies and allies than you have built your character into a corner by choice.
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You will always have a second focus spell available to you. This is where the channeled has a massive advantage over the sage, but if your two apparitions both have AoE effects that affect enemies and allies than you have built your character into a corner by choice.
If 2 options are vastly better than the others, it is a design issue.
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Yeah, that is exactly my thought too. The Animist is presented as having a wide variety of choices that can be built and rebuilt daily during daily preparations.
So the idea that the proper way to play the characters built from this class is to always pick the exact same Apparition so that you permanently have the one 'primary weapon' spell available seems like it is a design failure. Which is a good thing to note and point out during the playtest, but it is something that the developers need to fix - not something that we should promote keeping as part of the final class.
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I note that if nothing else, familiars offer a 1/day focus point refresh via the Familiar Focus Master ability, and are available via archetype.
Yeah, that is exactly my thought too. The Animist is presented as having a wide variety of choices that can be built and rebuilt daily during daily preparations.
So the idea that the proper way to play the characters built from this class is to always pick the exact same Apparition so that you permanently have the one 'primary weapon' spell available seems like it is a design failure. Which is a good thing to note and point out during the playtest, but it is something that the developers need to fix - not something that we should promote keeping as part of the final class.
My point when I talk about "main weapon" is around this too. The current mechanical reason (let's ignore the flavor reason in order to better playtest the mechanics for a moment) to select this class currently is its Vessel Spells and lets be a little honest. Why do you will take an Animist if is not for its Vessel Spell (once again let's focus on mechanics not in flavor)?
That's the reason why we got so stronger Vessel Spells IMO. The class want to give a playable template option focused into your Vessel Spell to play. Do you want to play as DPR, OK, take Steward of Stone and Fire as primary Apparition and explode your opponents with Earth's Bile, do you want to play as a healer now? Switch to Custodian of Groves and Gardens and keep healing your allies (and try to avoid your enemies) every turn, your frontline is down or need an extra hand there now? Switch to Imposter in Hidden Places or Stalker in Darkened Boughs and give a hand there.
That's why we need to take a care when want to nerf the Vessel Spell to avoid turn your main "main weapon" in some kind of auxiliary or situational feature. I already have such problem with Vanguard of Roaring Waters that basically only works Channeler's that's allow you to rapidly switch you main Apparition and Witness to Ancient Battles that's require you make your build focused in your Martial attributes and still cost an action per turn and penalize your Spell DC (yet still useful if you want to do a Battle Healer).
So let's take easy when suggesting a nerf for Vessel Spells.
About the idea of take a familiar and use it as extra emergency focus spell is good I didn't think about this (thanks I will probably try to do in my next playtest). But I still think that the class still could get an emergency recovery focus point into its feats and a refocus compression feat.
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The Animist is absolutely as dependent on Focus Points as the Psychic IMO.
Depends on what you mean.
An animist pretty much NEEDS to spend 1 focus point per encounter to be competitive but many can get away with JUST one. It would be a rare campaign that didn't allow SOME time to refocus.
A shapeshifting animist is quite viable into the low teens (hopefully some options will be in the release to extend that upwards). That requires only 1 focus point an encounter.
Or a spellcaster using Bile and another spell every round.
A strategy of spamming 3 Biles per fight requires a lot of time to recharge. But paizo is going to nerf that somehow. It's just too powerful to allow even as a nova action.
But yeah, as written Animist are going to vary HUGELY between campaigns depending on how long rests the PCs are allowed between encounters. I hope Paizo does something to reduce that. Something like a limitation that no particular Vessel spell can be cast more than once per 10 minutes would work?
The Animist is absolutely as dependent on Focus Points as the Psychic IMO.Depends on what you mean.
An animist pretty much NEEDS to spend 1 focus point per encounter to be competitive but many can get away with JUST one. It would be a rare campaign that didn't allow SOME time to refocus.
A shapeshifting animist is quite viable into the low teens (hopefully some options will be in the release to extend that upwards). That requires only 1 focus point an encounter.
Or a spellcaster using Bile and another spell every round.
A strategy of spamming 3 Biles per fight requires a lot of time to recharge. But paizo is going to nerf that somehow. It's just too powerful to allow even as a nova action.
It depends too.
I can see a Battle Form animist doing like a druid when he has a lot of focus points, giving up Sustaining the form (or even actively Dismissing it) so he can Cast a Spell he needs for a specific situation (usually Heal).
But I agree that the Bile strategy will consume way more focus (and IMO thats a cost embedded into this strategy you will need a good stop to refocus). Similar strategy could be made with Garden of Healing once that's its in encounter healing is a bit weak and depending from situation (specially when you are out of spell slots) you may want to boost it sustaining 2 or even 3 of them (full healing focus).
But yeah, as written Animist are going to vary HUGELY between campaigns depending on how long rests the PCs are allowed between encounters. I hope Paizo does something to reduce that. Something like a limitation that no particular Vessel spell can be cast more than once per 10 minutes would work?
But yeah, as written Animist are going to vary HUGELY between campaigns depending on how long rests the PCs are allowed between encounters. I hope Paizo does something to reduce that. Something like a limitation that no particular Vessel spell can be cast more than once per 10 minutes would work?
This would just force optimizing players to take focus spells from other classes to complete I don't think it would be a cool solution.
As I said before, I don't feel that Bile is that powerful in practice, its damage is a little better than that of a cantrip, but it costs a focus point and sustaining it is a blessing and a curse at the same time, as it is quite sustainable in a battle (it ended up becoming an unintentional pun), but it also creates enormous pressure on the player to try to maintain it as long as possible because afterwards they will no longer have the focus to cast another one.
If Paizo is going to nerf it at some point I hope it will only be in AoE and persistent damage. But honestly, I'm really afraid of Paizo's nerfs.
But yeah, as written Animist are going to vary HUGELY between campaigns depending on how long rests the PCs are allowed between encounters. I hope Paizo does something to reduce that. Something like a limitation that no particular Vessel spell can be cast more than once per 10 minutes would work?
Doesn't that just shift the problem and make the class weirdly bad for no reason if there are encounters close together or the animist loses actions and has to drop a spell?
I'm not sure what problem that actually solves.
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As I said before, I don't feel that Bile is that powerful in practice, its damage is a little better than that of a cantrip, but it costs a focus point and sustaining it is a blessing and a curse at the same time, as it is quite sustainable in a battle (it ended up becoming an unintentional pun), but it also creates enormous pressure on the player to try to maintain it as long as possible because afterwards they will no longer have the focus to cast another one.
I vehemently disagree. And so did the GM and every player at the level 11 playtest table I played at last night.
It is a very powerful nova. RankD4+Rank AoE damage x 3 a round.
So, at level 11 (an odd level so slightly suboptimal) that is a 63 point AoE. In terms of damage that is on par with about a Rank 8 level spell (admittedly with a smaller area).
In my playtests I've never bothered to cast fireball because why would I?
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While I agree that 3x Bile is very strong your math is a little off.
Rank 6 Earth's Bile does 6d4 damage. Triple casting it is 45 damage (plus 3 persistent), not 63.
45 damage is only 3 higher than the fireball you'd be casting at the same level (which also gives you an extra action, so you can do fireball + bile for 57, which is noticeably higher than triple bile).
That's still a lot of damage, but a bit less extreme than the numbers you're suggesting.
Earth Bile is also very tricky.
For example in a fight vs a Greater Barghest in my last, now lvl 4, animist's playtest it simply completely nullified my Biles just casting Blink spell.
Due its being a repeated casting this vessel spell is very susceptible to resistances specially resistance to all damage. Its similar to the resistance effects to alchemical bombs splash but worse because you don't have alternatives nor a stronger dice when you hit.
As I said before you are too focused in the total damage of whitepaper but some of you aren't seeing the practical difficulties that this kind of spell gives too.
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While I agree that 3x Bile is very strong your math is a little off.
Rank 6 Earth's Bile does 6d4 damage. Triple casting it is 45 damage (plus 3 persistent), not 63.
45 damage is only 3 higher than the fireball you'd be casting at the same level (which also gives you an extra action, so you can do fireball + bile for 57, which is noticeably higher than triple bile).
That's still a lot of damage, but a bit less extreme than the numbers you're suggesting.
You forgot Channeler's stance which adds 18 damage to that 45.
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I did play it in an actual game instead of just whiteroom theorycrafting. I think it does do too much damage if you multi-cast it, and maybe a bit too little if you stick to one casting.
I also find it to be too much of a gimmick rather than something intentional.
If it was intentional that it does equivalent damage to Fireball, then it would do equivalent damage to Fireball and be limited to one casting at a time. That way it only costs one focus point instead of burning through all three of them.
How many other focus spells in the game expect you to cast it three times in a row in order for it to work as intended?
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Earth Bile is also very tricky.
For example in a fight vs a Greater Barghest in my last, now lvl 4, animist's playtest it simply completely nullified my Biles just casting Blink spell.
Due its being a repeated casting this vessel spell is very susceptible to resistances specially resistance to all damage. Its similar to the resistance effects to alchemical bombs splash but worse because you don't have alternatives nor a stronger dice when you hit.
As I said before you are too focused in the total damage of whitepaper but some of you aren't seeing the practical difficulties that this kind of spell gives too.
One can find a counterexample to just about EVERY tactic. Sure, there are absolutely going to be encounters where spamming 3 Earth Biles isn't the answer. Just like there are encounters where sneak attacking isn't the answer, or fireball isn't the answer, or <insert just about anything> isn't the answer.
But its not as if the Animist is a one trick pony. Its a caster with lots of spells and it can be a reasonably effective "martial" with either a weapon or using Darkened Forest Form. Or its got various other tricks with its other apparitions. Its very simple to build an Animist with at least 1 or 2 things it can do when Earth Bile isn't the answer.
If we TOTALLY ignore Earth Bile you're still a quite effective character. Even more effective if you restrict Earth Bile (eg, to only 1 per encounter). So, if 1/2 of your encounters are with enemies against which Earth Bile aren't very good (and that estimate seems WAY high to me) you're effective half the time and very very effective the other half.
And I'll remind you that this isn't just whiteboard theorizing. I've actually played the Animist. When Earth Bile was restricted to only once per round (an unusual but arguable interpretation of the rule) my character was quite effective with Darkened Forest together with 1 Earth Bile a round (I cast Earth Bile, went into stance, and apparition whirled round 1, from then on I sustained EarthBile, sustained Darkened Forest which together granted me sufficient movement and then hit somebody with my attack or flurried at higher level).
And when I used 3 Earth Bile spells (2 the 1st round as I wanted to enter stance, 3 on round 2+) the amount of damage I was putting out was absurd. EVERY round without spending any resources.
I honestly didn't have that same experience as you.
The 3 Biles wasn't as good as it is being advocated here, using all actions to sustain a single spell multiple times ended up proving unsustainable for me, especially if you can't just focus on that (this was the case with my animist, as he he was also the party's healer), which meant that he was only really efficient in situations where there were many weak enemies, which was the situation where I normally didn't need to go around healing anyone and that was where her AoE shined the most. But in every other situation she was no better than a Flaming Sphere.
Even I don't completely disagree that she is stronger than she should be, but it's much more due to form than power. As I said in another topic, the main difference between the Bile and the Sphere is the AoE and the fact that you can cast all 3 Biles in a single round while the Sphere requires 3 rounds to do so.
So if there's something that could be nerfed for me, it's this, the AoE and the initial casting time. It's actually something I can also talk about with other Vesses Spells as well, many are sustained and reduced versions of spells that would normally cost 2-actions to cast, but have been reduced to a single action, leaving the player with the ability to cast multiples at once. same time (for example you can cast Garden of Healing in a single round, potentially becoming an area healing machine).
Other than that, I don't think you have to change damage or limit Bile to only sustaining 1 per round or anything like that. It is within the expected range for a sustained damage spell.
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I honestly didn't have that same experience as you.
The 3 Biles wasn't as good as it is being advocated here, using all actions to sustain a single spell multiple times ended up proving unsustainable for me, especially if you can't just focus on that (this was the case with my animist, as he he was also the party's healer), which meant that he was only really efficient in situations where there were many weak enemies, which was the situation where I normally didn't need to go around healing anyone and that was where her AoE shined the most. But in every other situation she was no better than a Flaming Sphere.
I'll try REALLY hard to make this the last post as at this point we're probably mostly repeating ourselves.
I've probably been slightly overstating myself. I don't think that this i SO overpowered that it will totally break the game. I don't think it SO overpowered that everybody will become an Animist. It is just very significantly more powerful than any other current options. It makes the animist a clearly better class than an Oracle or Cleric (the most obvious comparisons since it is at core a divine caster class), even within their optimal domain as healer (An Animist with Garden of Healing and Earths Bile can do a lot of healing while also having some nice offensive abilities).
It also combines very well with Darkened Forest Form to replace my personal favourite class (a druid who both shapeshifts a lot AND casts lots of blasting spells AND is very flexible to boot). At least up to the low teens level.
I never said (or, at least, never intended to say) that casting 3 Earth Biles is always going to be the right thing to do. Sure, if you're the party healer then you have other responsibilities. But even then its still a pretty nice one action spell to be able to freely cast.
You gave the example of Flaming Sphere so lets look at that.
Assuming you are in stance, they scale at about the same amount of damage (2d4+2 vs 2d6 per 2 spell ranks) with the Flaming Sphere starting slightlu higher at 3d6 vs 2d4+2 and advancing every rank. So, slight advantage Flaming Sphere.
They both pretty much cost 2 actions to cast (1 action to go into stance and 1 action to cast for Bile).
So we're left with a 10ft area of effect vs a one 5 ft square . That is a SIGNIFICANT win for Bile although admittedly there are a very few occassions where you can't place a 10ft AoE to catch even one opponent without catching an ally. But you'll almost always be able to catch one and quite often be able to get 2 or 3.
And, of course, the Flaming Sphere is using your highest or near highest slot and is a spell memorized or known. While Bile costs essentially no resources (yeah, its one of your 2 to 4 apparitions but that apparition gives you a LOT more than just Earth Bile).