Scaling Apparition Avatars

[Perpdepog]

Sorry if this has been stated somewhere before, but I have been thinking lately about the fact that each apparition has an avatar form to go along with it, and how these are super cool but are only ever going to get to show up for a tiny amount of play. Would it be possible for the animist to instead gain the ability to embody their apparitions sooner, and have those abilities scale up to a full avatar spell at some point? I am not sure if this would take up more or less page space, but my gut says it may take up less space if the scaling of apparition forms could be a bit more standardized across the templates.
I know that this proposal would step on the toes of the apparition that lets you turn into multiple animals, but that apparition would still have a benefit in that you can change your form from round to round while the others can't. Mostly I am putting this idea out there because I want to see what other folks think of it, and to stick it into the heads of the designers if it turns out that people would like that kind of change. I personally think it's a bummer that you have a section of each apparition that doesn't become important until way, way late in a campaign when it's such a cool idea and would be awesome to play with sooner.

[C_bastion]

I'd been wondering why such a cool feature was locked so late in the class too.
I could see a practice being based around the idea of a more physical embodiment/possession of your spirits.
That at least sounds more unique then the current Sage option, and maybe it could be an option that limits your magic flexibility for some martial flexibility, although the class is pretty loaded with flexing options already.

[Invictus Fatum]

It has been mentioned, but us with its own thread. This is my #1 ask. I feel like a decent amount of this class needs scaled down, but this aspect should scale up. I'd love to have the Avatar form be available as early as lvl 3, and then get more powerful as you level and even have a capstone feat to achieve the ultimate avatar form.

Please Paizo, make this happen.

[Squiggit]

I'm a bit torn.

I agree with the premise, it feels weird that the Avatar feature is presented so prominently but it ends up being such a minor footnote in the class (since it's only relevant at the end of a campaign).

... But the class already has so many cool things going for it I feel like you'd have to gut a significant component to make this work, and the end result wouldn't be very useful for many Animists anyways. Like if I"m leaning into a more castery build having a low level avatar is pretty much useless to me. Not to mention that it conflicts with other polymorph options that might be in your kit.

I almost wonder if it might be better to just hide Avatar somewhere or depreciate it entirely.

[The Raven Black]

Squiggit wrote:

I'm a bit torn.

I agree with the premise, it feels weird that the Avatar feature is presented so prominently but it ends up being such a minor footnote in the class (since it's only relevant at the end of a campaign).

... But the class already has so many cool things going for it I feel like you'd have to gut a significant component to make this work, and the end result wouldn't be very useful for many Animists anyways. Like if I"m leaning into a more castery build having a low level avatar is pretty much useless to me. Not to mention that it conflicts with other polymorph options that might be in your kit.

I almost wonder if it might be better to just hide Avatar somewhere or depreciate it entirely.

Well, unless I am mistaken, Avatar shows here just like it does for Clerics. I have zero problem with it working for Animists just like it works for Clerics.

[pixierose]

Yeah the big difference is that dieties tend to get a big lore write up. But since apparations aren't bespoke indviduals there write ups are much smaller and thus it looks like the Avatar takes up more of Apparation statblock.

[John R.]

pixierose wrote:

Yeah the big difference is that dieties tend to get a big lore write up. But since apparations aren't bespoke indviduals there write ups are much smaller and thus it looks like the Avatar takes up more of Apparation statblock.

Yeah....that page space could be used for a few more apparitions....

[Perpdepog]

pixierose wrote:

Yeah the big difference is that dieties tend to get a big lore write up. But since apparations aren't bespoke indviduals there write ups are much smaller and thus it looks like the Avatar takes up more of Apparation statblock.

This was something that I noticed, yeah. It feels like it should be a bigger deal than it winds up being simply because the write up for any given apparition is the sum totality of what we know about that apparition. At a glance the apparition focus spell and the apparition avatar form look roughly comparable in importance, even though the focus spell will be much more important in actual play.

Whichever way things end up going I hope that the apparition avatar forms don't disappear. I like that they are there, and I like that their inclusion makes apparitions feel comparable to deities in the setting, which underscores the fact that both animistic and deistic traditions of faith are equally viable. I think that is an important message to send both in and out of the game.

[pixierose]

Perpdepog wrote:

pixierose wrote:

Yeah the big difference is that dieties tend to get a big lore write up. But since apparations aren't bespoke indviduals there write ups are much smaller and thus it looks like the Avatar takes up more of Apparation statblock.

This was something that I noticed, yeah. It feels like it should be a bigger deal than it winds up being simply because the write up for any given apparition is the sum totality of what we know about that apparition. At a glance the apparition focus spell and the apparition avatar form look roughly comparable in importance, even though the focus spell will be much more important in actual play.

Whichever way things end up going I hope that the apparition avatar forms don't disappear. I like that they are there, and I like that their inclusion makes apparitions feel comparable to deities in the setting, which underscores the fact that both animistic and deistic traditions of faith are equally viable. I think that is an important message to send both in and out of the game.

Oh yeah I agree on all accounts. I would like to see them stay.

[QuidEst]

Apparitions only give unique stuff at first level, so having them do something unique at the end of the game feels important and worth spending some space on.

[C_bastion]

Yeah, I get that. I hadn't really thought about the comparison to clerics and the avatar option they pick up later, that makes sense.
I think I just really want a class that can shape-shift into different forms that offer unique tactical choices, but animist probably isn't the design space for that.