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The strongest fighter I've seen is a one-handed agile fighter who always has snagging strike, hopeful rune, and greater fearsome rune, and uses agile grace and press attack feats to keep up the support.
If she hits, it's now off-guard for a round and her next attack is only -1 off her first.
If she crits, the whole party benefits from off-guard, frightened 2, and hopeful's +1 aura. That's a 5 point swing vs AC.
And with agile grace, her 3rd attack is better than most 2nd attacks. She gets to press and crit fish all day. Shatter defenses can keep the enemy frightened for rounds, if they last that long.
Dueling Dance for +2 AC and survivability.
She only does 3d6+4 per hit at level 14, but she's the reason so many other hits and crits happen.
This kind of build is rarely or never the comparison point against other classes, or part of the analysis of why the fighter is strong, which tends to focus on a damage potential that's marginally better than other classes.
I love the variety of character types that the feat spread offers. Many big brawly guys, some noble fencers, some scrappy shield soldiers. The blank slate is great.
Honestly I think the feats are stronger than the +2 (though they work off each other).
Anyway, good class. Those are my notes.
AoO for free from the start, early Legendary in a weapon group, fighting style feats, better proficiency at advanced weapons ...That's where I believe a considerable part of their class identity lies besides simply being the best at hitting things: feat selection and customization.If a fighter's identiy is "having none", I don't call this an improvement...
What's the fighter's equivalent of a barbarian's rage, a monk's ki powers, a magus's spell, a ranger's edge, a rogue's sneak attack and rackets, a gunslinger's way, a swashbuckler's style or a champion's cause?
"Wow, I have a slightly better chance of hitting my target with my favorite weapon out of a 10-weapon group."
Riveting...
I'll gladly take a class feature at 6th, 12th and 18th level, where you add an extra damage die on your favorite weapon ON TOP of runes.
THAT's something unique and THAT's something that would make sense as weapon masters...
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AoO for free from the start, early Legendary in a weapon group, fighting style feats, better proficiency at advanced weapons ...That's where I believe a considerable part of their class identity lies besides simply being the best at hitting things: feat selection and customization.If a fighter's identiy is "having none", I don't call this an improvement...
What's the fighter's equivalent of a barbarian's rage, a monk's ki powers, a magus's spell, a ranger's edge, a rogue's sneak attack and rackets, a gunslinger's way, a swashbuckler's style or a champion's cause?
"Wow, I have a slightly better chance of hitting my target with my favorite weapon out of a 10-weapon group."
Riveting...
I'll gladly take a class feature at 6th, 12th and 18th level, where you add an extra damage die on your favorite weapon ON TOP of runes.
THAT's something unique and THAT's something that would make sense as weapon masters...
It is shocking how little your suggestions align with PF2 design principles.
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AoO for free from the start, early Legendary in a weapon group, fighting style feats, better proficiency at advanced weapons ...That's where I believe a considerable part of their class identity lies besides simply being the best at hitting things: feat selection and customization.If a fighter's identiy is "having none", I don't call this an improvement...
What's the fighter's equivalent of a barbarian's rage, a monk's ki powers, a magus's spell, a ranger's edge, a rogue's sneak attack and rackets, a gunslinger's way, a swashbuckler's style or a champion's cause?
"Wow, I have a slightly better chance of hitting my target with my favorite weapon out of a 10-weapon group."
Riveting...
I'll gladly take a class feature at 6th, 12th and 18th level, where you add an extra damage die on your favorite weapon ON TOP of runes.
THAT's something unique and THAT's something that would make sense as weapon masters...
No need to be disparaging like this.
I prefer hitting and criting more often for a weapon master (aka Fighter). The big but less frequent damage is more a Barbarian thing IMO.
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I'll gladly take a class feature at 6th, 12th and 18th level, where you add an extra damage die on your favorite weapon ON TOP of runes.
THAT's something unique and THAT's something that would make sense as weapon masters...
Kind of a Power Attack or Precision Ranger deal already though.
Definitely would take the accuracy, which boosts crits and enables press feats.
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That's where I believe a considerable part of their class identity lies besides simply being the best at hitting things: feat selection and customization.If a fighter's identiy is "having none", I don't call this an improvement...
What's the fighter's equivalent of a barbarian's rage, a monk's ki powers, a magus's spell, a ranger's edge, a rogue's sneak attack and rackets, a gunslinger's way, a swashbuckler's style or a champion's cause?
Let the game have options that can appeal to everyone
Fighters and monks are my favorite martials in this game because I'm not forced into a subclass or archetype and their action economy is lean without forced action taxes like reload, gaining panache, recharging spell strike, etc
You can take feats to give yourself such effects but they are not forced upon me
Don't make the classes less fun for others just because you don't like what many currently enjoy about it please
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Part of the point of the fighter is to not have unique class features. It is a Tabula Rasa that is mechanically flexible enough to focus on almost any style of martial combat, and lacks any flavor which might clash with your own vision. It is the vanilla ice cream of classes. Some people like it on its own, but it also the best base to build a Sunday off of... where things like the barbarian are more like Chocolate Cookie Dough you eat straight out of the pint container.The fighter may be balanced, but I feel like it's missing unique class features to differenciate it from other martial classes.
Some will be quick to defend the Legendary proficiencies, but... what else?
This has always sounded like Fighter should be an NPC class to me.
At this point my primary gripe with all four of the classes--fighter and monk in particular--is how tired their designs look when compared to fresher class packages being tested for both Pathfinder and Starfinder. Fortunately (and as always), this is a pain point that experience GMs can ameliorate through the application of house rules.
Very curious as to which classes you view as the fresher package
Because pretty much every martial after core I have disliked mechanically because of those packages
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I mean I get wanting to play more flavor loaded classes but it feels really weird to suggest that broader things can't or shouldn't exist. It's okay for a class to just not be your thing if you're not into broad concepts.
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I mean I get wanting to play more flavor loaded classes but it feels really weird to suggest that broader things can't or shouldn't exist. It's okay for a class to just not be your thing if you're not into broad concepts.
This. I'll also note fighter has pretty clear build paths if you want to stick with them. Most levels have a feat to support each of the following:
Sword and board
Two-handed weapons
Dual wielding
Ranged/archery
Free-hand fighting
It is easy for a new player to pick feats that support their desired style. And it is significantly easier for new players to actually play the class because they don't need to worry about any conditional mechanics or modifiers not listed on their sheet beyond their feats.
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More classes should be simple and not have the predefined paths. One of the biggest issues with other classes is exactly that: They are super complicated with very stricts paths, but then no real support compared to what the Fighter/Monk get.
I completely agree here, it's staggering how many good feats Fighter gets compared to some other classes. Anecdotical, but I'm playing one in a game right now and the other day I told one of my friends, a Magus, that there were around 5-7 level 10 feats I'd consider good to amazing picks for my character. He told me that for his, he had basically 2 choices that did anything. Not feats tha he was particularly eager to take like I was, mind you, just 2 that he could reasonably choose from because of his character, subclasses and other restrictions.
I'm thinking it just might be a particularly uneventful level for Magus whereas Fighter has a whole lot of things to sallivate over at 10, but a lot of thought was put into Fighter feats and it shows. I'd like to see the same extended to other classes, eventually.
This kind of build is rarely or never the comparison point against other classes, or part of the analysis of why the fighter is strong, which tends to focus on a damage potential that's marginally better than other classes.
I love the variety of character types that the feat spread offers. Many big brawly guys, some noble fencers, some scrappy shield soldiers. The blank slate is great.
Honestly I think the feats are stronger than the +2 (though they work off each other).
Anyway, good class. Those are my notes.
Au contrairie, I think that kind of character is incredibly powerful! My experience has been similar to that, although we're only level 6 so far and I favor double-hander swords instead. I've been meaning to play an Intimidation build centered on shredding enemy AC since the playtest, and I'm extremely happy with how the game delivers on that front. Thing is, it's just one way to do it, you can more or less mix and match whatever feats you want and you still end up with a good, cohesive whole.
Man, I wanna play some more now. Saturdays can never come soon enough.
I don't really see how extra damage on hit is any more interesting than extra accuracy.AoO for free from the start, early Legendary in a weapon group, fighting style feats, better proficiency at advanced weapons ...That's where I believe a considerable part of their class identity lies besides simply being the best at hitting things: feat selection and customization.If a fighter's identiy is "having none", I don't call this an improvement...
What's the fighter's equivalent of a barbarian's rage, a monk's ki powers, a magus's spell, a ranger's edge, a rogue's sneak attack and rackets, a gunslinger's way, a swashbuckler's style or a champion's cause?
"Wow, I have a slightly better chance of hitting my target with my favorite weapon out of a 10-weapon group."
Riveting...
I'll gladly take a class feature at 6th, 12th and 18th level, where you add an extra damage die on your favorite weapon ON TOP of runes.
THAT's something unique and THAT's something that would make sense as weapon masters...
What if I told you that the Kineticist can deal up to FIVE damage dice with their blasts at 17th level? Combined with Weapon Infusion, it literally makes it slightly better than the Fighter.
Seriously guys, if the Fighter's gimmick is to be "better at weapon wielding than anyone else", there should be SOMETHING that blatantly demonstrates it.
Every other class has something to improve a fighting style that a Fighter might take, like how the Ranger may be special with archery, while the Swashbuckler may be special with free-hand.
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Seriously guys, if the Fighter's gimmick is to be "better at weapon wielding than anyone else", there should be SOMETHING that blatantly demonstrates it.
There is, fighters have better proficiency than anyone else.
Are you really trying to argue fighters are weak? Because that's just not grounded in reality at all.
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Seriously guys, if the Fighter's gimmick is to be "better at weapon wielding than anyone else", there should be SOMETHING that blatantly demonstrates it.There is, fighters have better proficiency than anyone else.
Are you really trying to argue fighters are weak? Because that's just not grounded in reality at all.
Indeed. A better chance to hit and to crit for all their attacks with their chosen weapon group AND AoO for free from the start are pretty blatant to me.
Getting increasing Advanced weapon proficiency for free is also pretty blatant. It's just that Advanced weapons are not a big thing.
Fighters are definitely strong, but too strong? I'm on the fence about it.
They're the most accurate class in the game, with some pretty potent combat feats, a fair amount of them not available until the mid-game or late-game. Improved Knockdown is a 10th level feat which requires burning a 4th level (or higher) feat prior to it to acquire, which is significantly weaker. Disruptive Stance is also a 10th level feat. Combat Reflexes is a 12th level feat. These are definitely potent feats, but too strong? Not really. When you have Barbarians that can increase in size and reach and/or fly, Champions having higher AC (sometimes) with their reactions that can make enemies significantly weaker by comparison, Rangers with added damage/subsequent accuracy and potential combat pets adding more DPR/HP to the party, Monks with super mobility and focus spells/abilities, Druids being able to fly and cast spells, Rogues inflicting debuffs, having increased skills, and applying Sneak Attack, etc. I'm not inclined to believe that they are too strong, but they have their special abilities of their own that not many classes (if any) can replicate, which means they have their own niche, and that's basically the balance point each class is meant to have.
Incidentally, some of their feats are better suited to non-Fighter classes. Power Attack is a prime example of where having the Fighter accuracy is probably a bad thing, since you will be able to take more advantage of your heightened proficiency if you make more attacks, and they are more likely to land compared to most any other class (Flurry Rangers maybe being an exception, but that's not really noticeable until the endgame). In fact, Power Attack is best used on somebody that is standard Martial accuracy, or subpar Martial accuracy, simply because you are making the most of your first attack while discarding secondary/tertiary attacks that have an increased chance of missing. It also has an interesting use of brute-forcing resistances, but it's also not really the main draw to the feat.