| 15 people marked this as a favorite. |
Since I love to rag on classes I think are terrible which are fortunately fairly few in PF2, I'd like to admit I was wrong about the summoner. I whined quite a bit during the playtest feeling like the summoner was getting shafted with this dual hit point pool and the fact summons aren't that great. The eidolon seemed weak to me too, but once you see how it works with the summoner it works very well.
I would rate the summoner as an upper tier class. Very powerful. Very useful. Lots of role versatility all rolled up in one package.
The summoner class name doesn't really fit what the class does well. They have so few spell slots and summons are not a great use of the small number of spell slots. So it is best to view the eidolon as a sort of super summon that acts as a summoned weapon or tool created from your lifeforce.
I personally would have still preferred a summon font or a focus point driven summon spell to make the summoner summoned creature enhancement feats far more useful, but that isn't the direction they went with Master Summoner feat.
Even without the summons, the class is still very good.
What does the summoner do well?
Action Economy: The summoner is probably the best action economy class in the game. I can't think of another class that can do so much in a round.
As we know in PF2 action economy is a big deal. So a class that is the best at action economy allows for a lot of build options.
I've found through testing the summoner can do a lot of builds. Some of the things I've done:
1. Defensive Build: A caster eidolon and summoner can maintain two Forbidding Wards on two different characters while still doing other things like moving and attacking.
2. A healer summoner is quite good. You can use a 2 action heal and a battle medicine in the same round while still having the eidolon attack.
3. Movement with tandem movement is fluid and is a worthwhile feat tax.
4. You can make the main eidolon weapon useful for a variety of actions if you want to build around a particular combat maneuver.
5. It's easy to use intimidate to lower AC on a target while attacking with the eidolon.
6. The stat array of the eidolon is quite nice. You can build a powerhouse physical eidolon with the extra boosts so you end up with a Master level weapon with a 24 main attack stat that can hit fairly hard.
7. Summoners always have something to do. If you look at Boost Eidolon as something to use constantly, it seems somewhat lacking. If you look at boost eidolon as one of many available options, it's a great 1 action option when you don't need to cast or do much else but hit and do some damage.
8. You can flank with your eidolon.
9. The 10 hit points is pretty nice for a secondary caster who can spend a heavy number of ability boosts on Con, while focusing the Eidolon's main attack stats up.
10. The eidolon can operate at range with a feat or in melee, so you can build to be a switch hitter much easier than most classes.
11. Picking Eidolon AoO allows for a good use of your shared reaction.
12. Evolution Surge allows you to simulate feats you need not take to fit a given situation. So you have a lot of feat flexibility due to Evolution Surge.
13. Most of the eidolons are fairly well built. I'd personally like more customization, but this class has so much already I can see why they tried to keep it simple.
14. Healing at two points can be extremely tactically useful. You can use this to your advantage.
15. From a pure aesthetics and creative perspective, this class leads to an extensive amount of creativity in builds. You can make your eidolon look like whatever you feel like and come up with whatever weird reason you want to look a certain way.
I made a psychopomp eidolon that looked like a giant raven and when it manifested, I had the summoner look like the crow character from the movie.
I made a metal elemental summoner and the summoner's eyes turn the color of steel when it manifested. The eidolon looks like a Valkyrie made of steel with a versatile weapon that changes according to the needs of the fight.
I made a samurai that summoned a dragon eidolon as his weapon like a Bleach character summoning a bankai form from their sword.
You can dream up whatever you want as a summoner.
What are the downsides?
1. The joint hit point pool can be exploited if attacked at two points. It does happen on occasion, but not near often enough to make a summoner unplayable. It can be quite brutal when it happens as the summoner is much weaker defensively. So you have to be on your toes for this type of assault on the summoner. Getting attacked at two points can eat your big hit point pool up quite quickly.
Of course, AoEs can be brutal making protective bond a feat tax. I might house rule at some point that Protective Bond is gained around level 11 as a bonus feat. Unlike Tandem Move, Protective Bond feels like a punishing feat tax. It should be a class ability.
Overall not as bad as I originally thought and it can be exploited advantageously for healing.
2. Summoners aren't good at summoning. Then again summons aren't very good. Until summons are more useful at higher level, the summoner's summoning feats are a trap. I would stay away from them and build the summoner to have lots of other actions and abilities.
3. Skills. Be nice if the eidolon had separate skill ups. It's kind of odd as a summoner to have to build up Athletics and Acrobatics so your eidolon can have those skills at a high level since they are in combat quite a bit and want to use combat maneuvers. Since these skills are also useful to the summoner, it could be worse.
Some remaster rules that might make eidolons even better:
1. Removing the stat from cantrip damage. Eidolon casters having to spend points to build up their casting stat to do good cantrip damage since that is their primary attack form will have it better when they can ignore their casting stat and still do good damage with cantrips.
You may at that point be able to not bother with the ranged unarmed attack feat eidolons get and pick up Eidolon casting for a couple of cantrips. One can be shield and one a ranged cantrip for when they might want to use a ranged attack. Damage should still be decent with no developed casting stat.
That's my 2 cents. I wanted to give the designer of the summoner class (Mark Seifter?) a kudos. I was wrong about the class. It's a great class with amazing action economy. I see now they they had to be very careful as Act Together is even now a borderline too good ability.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was pretty sold on the Summoner when it got out but I must admit that using it showed me how incredible the class is. It's in my opinion the most versatile class in the game, and I've played a lot of versatile class. I also rate the Summoner as a Tier S class as long as you understand that its versatility is its strength.
I still react on 2 points:
Skills: Skills are no downside. Sure, you have the same skills than your Eidolon, but being able to raise different skills would have been far too strong. But overall it's an asset of the Summoner, as you combine 2 stat arrays, the ability to aid yourself and an excellent action economy making skill actions less costly. Some of the strongest skill-based builds and combos are based on the Summoner.
You may at that point be able to not bother with the ranged unarmed attack feat eidolons get and pick up Eidolon casting for a couple of cantrips. One can be shield and one a ranged cantrip for when they might want to use a ranged attack. Damage should still be decent with no developed casting stat.
Be careful as you can't cast 2 2-action spells, one with the Summoner and one with the Eidolon. So you need the ranged attack to maximize your ranged damage (or 1-action ranged damage spells the Eidolon can use... but I don't see any).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wish they would make Tandem Move into a class feature; this edition is meant to remove feat taxes, not mandate them.
Having a solid power floor feels really nice for the game in general.
I also rate the Summoner as a Tier S class as long as you understand that its versatility is its strength.
I say the same thing about Witch, but almost no one believes me. Well, even I don't put current Witch at S-Tier, but still - very playable class. As long as you avoid the trap feats.
2. Summoners aren't good at summoning. Then again summons aren't very good.
Summons aren't very good. Summoners are probably the best summoning class available. Certainly among the top.
3. Skills. Be nice if the eidolon had separate skill ups.
It costs a class feat, but they do have that option.
I wish they would make Tandem Move into a class feature; this edition is meant to remove feat taxes, not mandate them.
Still less of a must-pick feat tax than Basic Lesson.
Still less of a must-pick feat tax than Basic Lesson.
Play a Summoner and you'll change your mind. Having to pay 2 actions to move is just not playable.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Still less of a must-pick feat tax than Basic Lesson.Play a Summoner and you'll change your mind. Having to pay 2 actions to move is just not playable.
Spell origin point tokens move??!
Spell origin point tokens move??!Still less of a must-pick feat tax than Basic Lesson.Play a Summoner and you'll change your mind. Having to pay 2 actions to move is just not playable.
Not every challenge is a combat happening in a small room where the enemies don't move through your frontline.
I even had a fight where I've been nearly unable to act due to the lack of Tandem Move (a wind effect pushing and tripping all around... 4 actions to move 10 feet made my experience rather frustrating).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not every challenge is a combat happening in a small room where the enemies don't move through your frontline.
I even had a fight where I've been nearly unable to act due to the lack of Tandem Move (a wind effect pushing and tripping all around... 4 actions to move 10 feet made my experience rather frustrating).
That would be very frustrating to me too. Spending actions having to stand and move would interfere with having actions sufficient to cast spells with.
Having Tandem Move would be very useful, but it is not a feat tax - it is not required in order for the character to be raised to the effectiveness level of other characters. It is a very good benefit that a character can choose to take.
Having a focus point and no useful focus spell to cast is ineffective. Requiring a feat in order to get a useful focus spell is a feat tax.
I was pretty sold on the Summoner when it got out but I must admit that using it showed me how incredible the class is. It's in my opinion the most versatile class in the game, and I've played a lot of versatile class. I also rate the Summoner as a Tier S class as long as you understand that its versatility is its strength.
I still react on 2 points:
Skills: Skills are no downside. Sure, you have the same skills than your Eidolon, but being able to raise different skills would have been far too strong. But overall it's an asset of the Summoner, as you combine 2 stat arrays, the ability to aid yourself and an excellent action economy making skill actions less costly. Some of the strongest skill-based builds and combos are based on the Summoner.You may at that point be able to not bother with the ranged unarmed attack feat eidolons get and pick up Eidolon casting for a couple of cantrips. One can be shield and one a ranged cantrip for when they might want to use a ranged attack. Damage should still be decent with no developed casting stat.Be careful as you can't cast 2 2-action spells, one with the Summoner and one with the Eidolon. So you need the ranged attack to maximize your ranged damage (or 1-action ranged damage spells the Eidolon can use... but I don't see any).
Skills for both probably too powerful. I'd rather spend the feat on Rogue Dedication and a Skill Mastery or 2 to get skills for all than the Eidolon skill feat. It's not great.
If you're going to use ranged attack a lot, then take the feat. If it is only occasional, then a 2 action cantrip is fine, especially if a save cantrip where your action sequence would be Act Together:
2 action save cantrip
1 action attack
1 action boost by summoner or some other singular action.
You could the summoner cast it fine in that instance too, then attack. I like having options. A 12d4 needle darts or 10d6 ignite might not be bad compared to a 4d4 plus maybe 3d6 energy damage might not be as good with a bigger chance to miss with the minus 5.
I picked up Needle Darts for my Steel Valkyrie eidolon. It has 60 foot range. That was nice. Ranged unarmed strike has 30 foot range. Is based on Dex and I'm building up strength for my eidolon. So it synergizes well with my build since I'm maxing out Charisma for the summoner and strength for the eidolon. It still uses your summoner's spell attack roll.
And for my Steel Valkyrie eidolon, it looks pretty cool.
Having Tandem Move would be very useful, but it is not a feat tax - it is not required in order for the character to be raised to the effectiveness level of other characters.
You haven't played a Summoner, isn't it?
Spending 2 actions to make a single move is taxing. Tandem Move is the end of the tunnel. It's a tax feat as, unless you take Steed Form but that's rather niche, you'll take it on any remotely optimized Summoner build as early as you can.Basic Lesson can be considered a tax feat as it allows you to use your class abilities. But it is nowhere as impactful as Tandem Move. Doubly so as you can grab a focus power elsewhere so there's lots of alternative.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You haven't played a Summoner, isn't it?
Spending 2 actions to make a single move is taxing.
Unfortunately, no. The game for my summoner character still has not actually started. *grumble grumble*
But I still question the logic.
A Summoner character doesn't spend two actions to make a single move. You would spend two actions to have both characters move once. That is still two moves, not one.
And that is assuming that you don't use Act Together to do the movement.
So if you only need to move the Eidolon, it is only one action to do your movement for the turn - same as everyone else.
And if a Witch and their familiar both need to move, that is going to be two actions of the three that the Witch has available - with no option to get either Act Together or Tandem Move. Hope you picked Independent for one of your ability slots that morning. Animal Companions are in the same spot. Including requiring a feat in order to get the ability to move without costing actions from the main character.
I have played the Summoner a bit. It can do what you say, but I find it a bit frustrating as you can't do everything at one, and you have to be quite selective in your feat choices. It has the opposite problem of the wizard. Too many good feats to choose from.
Mostly I found myself spending all my actions to be somewhat competitive. So in effect I had less actions available to use.
So flexible, under done for damage output, has its uses, but very middle of the road as a class.
A Summoner character doesn't spend two actions to make a single move. You would spend two actions to have both characters move once. That is still two moves, not one.
You very often need to move both. Moving is a very basic activity you do all the time. For most characters it doesn't cost an important action (it costs your third action) so you don't feel it. But when you play a character like the Summoner where all actions cost, you realize that moving is taxing. There's really a before and an after Tandem Move. And the before can be extremely frustrating sometimes.
And if a Witch and their familiar both need to move
My experience is that all Familiars are on their master's shoulder and as such don't need to move.
Animal Companions are in the same spot.
Animal Companions are in a similar spot. My Alchemist has a Bird and I had to learn to always land as otherwise the action I have to pay every round for it to fly can be problematic (and I had my companion falling on the ground because sometimes you just can't lose an action for nothing).
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again, I am not trying to say that Tandem Move is not incredibly powerful and highly useful.
I'm saying that it isn't a feat tax. When you take the feat it is giving you abilities above that of other two-body characters like Druid with Animal Companion or Remastered Witch with a familiar that is taking part in combat. It isn't taking a character that would normally be worse than those other characters and bringing them up to par.
Tandem Move is most definitely giving benefits all on its own and is not a PF1 style 'feat tax'.
Again, I am not trying to say that Tandem Move is not incredibly powerful and highly useful.
I'm saying that it isn't a feat tax. When you take the feat it is giving you abilities above that of other two-body characters like Druid with Animal Companion or Remastered Witch with a familiar that is taking part in combat. It isn't taking a character that would normally be worse than those other characters and bringing them up to par.
** spoiler omitted **
There is no single definition of feat tax. It can be a feat that you don't want but is necessary to take another one you want. It can be a feat that is necessary to use something you should be able to use by default (a class feature for example). It can be a feat that is so strong that everyone takes it.
Basic Lesson is a feat tax to use a class feature.
Tandem Move is a feat tax to use a basic ability everyone has (moving) and at the same time it's very powerful.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Tandem Move is a feat tax to use a basic ability everyone has (moving) and at the same time it's very powerful.
Moving is a basic ability that Summoner has too. They don't need Tandem Move in order to move at all. They need Tandem Move in order to move both of their characters and still have actions to spare for attacking and casting spells with.
Moving both of their characters for one action is a unique ability that only Summoners can get.
So... Concrete example time.
Describe a specific encounter scenario where Tandem Move would be very powerful that the Druid with an Animal Companion wouldn't feel jealous that the Summoner gets and they don't.
And yes, there are plenty of other two-part characters too - not singling out Druid for any particular reason. So don't claim that it is just one class and subclass that is getting jealous.
Describe a specific encounter scenario where Tandem Move would be very powerful that the Druid with an Animal Companion wouldn't feel jealous that the Summoner gets and they don't.
Sorry, your sentence is very convoluted and I don't get exactly what you want me to answer.
The issue is that you can not move more than 25ft. per round without losing all your actions. It's extremely low. For example, take a fight where the enemies are at 35 ft. You're partly screwed. You can't use both of your characters during round 1.
Similarly, there are many encounters that assume that a character can move at least 60ft. per round. You can only move 50ft. per round. So you get crazy situations where everyone goes faster than you and you are just useless in the back.
It's extremely frustrating. Every time you have just a little bit of movement expected in an encounter, as little as 30 ft. you have to choose which one to play and basically lose half of your efficiency. It's nearly as if you had 15 ft. of Speed and I think you'd consider a feat giving 10 ft. of Speed to be a tax feat for such a character.
The Druid, on the other hand, can just move and ignore their pet as their power rely mostly on the Druid.
The class is just playing as a monster with a squire.
Or a mage and a strong pet. The class can also be played with the Summoner as central character.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The issue is that you can not move more than 25ft. per round without losing all your actions. It's extremely low. For example, take a fight where the enemies are at 35 ft. You're partly screwed. You can't use both of your characters during round 1.
Similarly, there are many encounters that assume that a character can move at least 60ft. per round. You can only move 50ft. per round. So you get crazy situations where everyone goes faster than you and you are just useless in the back.
It's extremely frustrating. Every time you have just a little bit of movement expected in an encounter, as little as 30 ft. you have to choose which one to play and basically lose half of your efficiency. It's nearly as if you had 15 ft. of Speed and I think you'd consider a feat giving 10 ft. of Speed to be a tax feat for such a character.The Druid, on the other hand, can just move and ignore their pet as their power rely mostly on the Druid.
Well, that is pretty much exactly what I am looking for.
Aside from the disparaging remarks regarding playing an Animal Order Druid and considering the companion to be a forgettable part of the character. Just because you wouldn't play it doesn't mean that it isn't a worthwhile play style.
-----
So in the first scenario where the enemies are 35 feet away:
The Druid can command their companion to stride twice to get in range, and then they can stride twice to get in range. And just like with the Summoner/Eidolon that takes their entire turn.
Alternatively the Druid can command their companion to stride once, stride once themselves, and have only one action left. But at least they won't end their turn adjacent to the enemies.
Or maybe these are ranged-primary enemies that don't have much in the way of melee attacks. So then commanding the companion to stride twice and ending next to the enemy is fine. And the Druid can stride once and have one action left.
The Summoner can spend one action on Act Together and have both Stride once. Then the pair will have two actions left and can either have the Summoner cast a 2 action spell, or have the Eidolon Stride again and Strike. The Druid wouldn't be able to do either a 2-action spell or a melee Strike no matter how they work their actions. Other than as you mentioned - leave the Animal Companion out of the battle entirely.
So in this scenario the Summoner class has better movement ability than a 2-body character right out of the box. And that is just the standard movement. We haven't even gotten to Evolution Surge giving the Eidolon a 45 foot Stride speed.
-----
Any battle that expects characters to be moving 60 feet per round isn't going to be fun for anyone other than martial classes. You have, what, one action left for something other than Stride - if you have spent build resources or something like that on increasing your movement speed above 25 feet. Druids would hate that Animal Companion or not. So I don't see how that would be worse for a Summoner without Tandem Move.
-----
But in short, the entire premise of calling Tandem Move a Feat Tax is to argue that it is so good that it should be free and included in the core Class Features.
But why would something be promoted to a class feature just because it is really good? That seems counter-intuitive. Making it not cost a class feat just makes an already good class even better. We include things in the class features if they are so iconic to the character that not having it would be strange, or if it is necessary in order to bring the class up to par with other similar classes and character concepts.
Not just 'because it is so good and I don't like having to spend a class feat on it'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Again, I am not trying to say that Tandem Move is not incredibly powerful and highly useful.
I'm saying that it isn't a feat tax. When you take the feat it is giving you abilities above that of other two-body characters like Druid with Animal Companion or Remastered Witch with a familiar that is taking part in combat. It isn't taking a character that would normally be worse than those other characters and bringing them up to par.
** spoiler omitted **
There is no single definition of feat tax. It can be a feat that you don't want but is necessary to take another one you want. It can be a feat that is necessary to use something you should be able to use by default (a class feature for example). It can be a feat that is so strong that everyone takes it.
Basic Lesson is a feat tax to use a class feature.
Tandem Move is a feat tax to use a basic ability everyone has (moving) and at the same time it's very powerful.
IMO there's 2 definitions of what's a feat tax.
The first and more stronger definition is something that everyone must have to take because without it almost any build with that class will have a problem. IMO Protective Bond qualifies to this because in these levels the number of opponents with AoE begins to grows and not have Protective Bond will make you suffer a lot from them.
The second and more relative definitions is something the will be useful for every build and everyone will want to get but it isn't a thing you must have to get if you have an another good option to choose in that level. IMO Tandem Movement qualifies to this. It's something that everyone whats to have because in some moment you will end in a situation where it will be useful but instead of it you may prefer to get Defend Summoner or another feat specially an archetype feat instead and you won't will be (too) punished due this decision.
To me both qualifies as good candidates to be a class feature because they are so necessary or useful feats that makes more sense they being a part of the chassis instead a build option. But I only consider the first case as a tax feat because the second case you will be put into a hard choice while in the first case you will be put in a punitive choice.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The idea is that any feat that is so good that it is essentially a mandatory selection such that it crowds out any other choice at those levels (tandem move, risky reload, running reload, lingering composition, basic lesson, etc, etc) may as well be made part of the chassis if you care about build diversity. Sure, you can just refuse to take those options, but there's no value in being bad on purpose.
It can make good classes better, and you risk there being an obvious second must-take option which defeats the whole point, but it can be healthier than every character of a given class having the same core build with only one or two divergent points.
|
You haven't played a Summoner, isn't it?
Spending 2 actions to make a single move is taxing.Unfortunately, no. The game for my summoner character still has not actually started. *grumble grumble*
But I still question the logic.
A Summoner character doesn't spend two actions to make a single move. You would spend two actions to have both characters move once. That is still two moves, not one.
And that is assuming that you don't use Act Together to do the movement.
So if you only need to move the Eidolon, it is only one action to do your movement for the turn - same as everyone else.
And if a Witch and their familiar both need to move, that is going to be two actions of the three that the Witch has available - with no option to get either Act Together or Tandem Move. Hope you picked Independent for one of your ability slots that morning. Animal Companions are in the same spot. Including requiring a feat in order to get the ability to move without costing actions from the main character.
My Summoner has Tandem Movement.
But before he had Tandem Movement, he just usually didn't move on his turns. Like my other spell casters often don't
He still doesn't always move on his turns, though since it's free he usually does. Often I wouldn't bother if it wasn't free.
@breithauptclan: You're getting too much into the details. I won't have a long discussion on that, I don't think it's that important. I also fully agree that the Druid with an Animal Companion has issues before level 4: I have a character with an Animal Companion so I lived it and I learned to deal with it. But overall, there's much more budget into an Eidolon than into an Animal Companion, so not being able to use the Eidolon in combat for a round is a bigger loss.
I also realize our difference in point of view may come from a difference in how we see the class. I play a caster Summoner and not an Eidolon Summoner. The caster Summoner is much more versatile and efficient than the Eidolon Summoner, I consider the caster Summoner a tier S build but the Eidolon Summoner a tier B build. Unfortunately, it means I need both my Summoner and my Eidolon to be at 30 ft. from the enemies to attack. Others builds may have less issues. So I can see why some people don't consider it a tax feat, I just disagree with them as it is central (with Ranged Combattant) to what makes the Summoner strong.
Anyway, tax feats are a subject of disagreement. I have my point of view, you won't be able to change it as I've been able to experience it and it's clearly one of the most impactful feats I've ever taken with a character, maybe even the most. I clearly don't put Basic Lesson in the same basket.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Removed a couple of harassing posts. Disagree civilly please.
I also realize our difference in point of view may come from a difference in how we see the class. I play a caster Summoner and not an Eidolon Summoner. The caster Summoner is much more versatile and efficient than the Eidolon Summoner, I consider the caster Summoner a tier S build but the Eidolon Summoner a tier B build. Unfortunately, it means I need both my Summoner and my Eidolon to be at 30 ft. from the enemies to attack. Others builds may have less issues. So I can see why some people don't consider it a tax feat, I just disagree with them as it is central (with Ranged Combattant) to what makes the Summoner strong.
What're the differences between the two?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I also realize our difference in point of view may come from a difference in how we see the class. I play a caster Summoner and not an Eidolon Summoner. The caster Summoner is much more versatile and efficient than the Eidolon Summoner, I consider the caster Summoner a tier S build but the Eidolon Summoner a tier B build. Unfortunately, it means I need both my Summoner and my Eidolon to be at 30 ft. from the enemies to attack. Others builds may have less issues. So I can see why some people don't consider it a tax feat, I just disagree with them as it is central (with Ranged Combattant) to what makes the Summoner strong.What're the differences between the two?
The Eidolon Summoner uses the Eidolon as main character and the Summoner as secondary character: It's a monster with a squire as Temperans calls it. The caster Summoner uses the Summoner as main character and the Eidolon as secondary character: It's a mage with a strong pet.
I've made a guide about it as it's a rather unintuitive build and gameplay.
I played the play test summoner through AoA and only once did I want tandem movement. Most fights in APs start and stay within 30 feet it seems. Get the extended tether range item and it shouldn't ever be a problem.
For level 4 feats, lifelink surge and skilled partner offer so much more then an extra move you might need every dozen fights or so. Not much reason to run donuts around in the backline during most fights. If you don't have a stable front line, then it might be worth more, but then just do what any other caster would do, fly or go invisible or whatever.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have played the Summoner a bit. It can do what you say, but I find it a bit frustrating as you can't do everything at one, and you have to be quite selective in your feat choices. It has the opposite problem of the wizard. Too many good feats to choose from.
Mostly I found myself spending all my actions to be somewhat competitive. So in effect I had less actions available to use.
So flexible, under done for damage output, has its uses, but very middle of the road as a class.
I can see how you came to this conclusion as it was my initial conclusion.
It took a while to see how to build a summoner. Once I stopped trying to take summoner feats and build up summoner abilities, the class became better. There are certain high value summoner feats like Tandem Movement.
I started to focus building for a role using archetype feats. Can you turn a summoner into a good healer that can do some damage? Yes.
Can you turn a summoner into a good tripper with some other abilities? Yes.
Can you use battle forms to make the eidolon do more damage for a few fights a day? Yes.
It's one of those classes you have to play around with and think outside the box to make shine.
Which makes it a very unintuitive class. If you make the summoner with the idea of summoning or building around the eidolon as much more than a tool to set up other things, the class doesn't feel great.
If you look at the eidolon about like a martial looks at its weapon while seeking to build to do other actions, the summoner becomes much better.
It doesn't fulfill the summoner class fantasy, but it does have amazing action economy that you can build around if you don't focus on what the summoner does. Not exactly the reason you play a summoner, but I've found I'm enjoying thinking up ways to make the action economy useful.
It was cool to be able to do a 2 action heal, a battle medicine, while still attacking with the eidolon doing damage.
It's interesting to be able to set up flanking for multiple party members, while they do the damage drawing the aggression.
It's nice to be able to maintain a Forbidding Ward while still having a 2 action cast and a 1 action attack from level 1 on.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd just like to stop and appreciate that someone has not only changed their opinion about something, but also told the internet that they did so. I have to give Deriven props for being a good example!
I think the summoner is a class that in the future should be renamed. Especially given that the primary benefit of summoning is that summoned creatures eat damage and actions instead of you and your party, and the summoner's eidolon doesn't fit that. Instead of being a summoner it is an advanced pet class
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the summoner is a class that in the future should be renamed. Especially given that the primary benefit of summoning is that summoned creatures eat damage and actions instead of you and your party, and the summoner's eidolon doesn't fit that. Instead of being a summoner it is an advanced pet class
TBH being the advanced pet class was the theme for the PF1 Summoner even before we had its playtest (and the class' name).
I have played the Summoner a bit. It can do what you say, but I find it a bit frustrating as you can't do everything at one, and you have to be quite selective in your feat choices. It has the opposite problem of the wizard. Too many good feats to choose from.
Mostly I found myself spending all my actions to be somewhat competitive. So in effect I had less actions available to use.
So flexible, under done for damage output, has its uses, but very middle of the road as a class.
I can see how you came to this conclusion as it was my initial conclusion.
It took a while to see how to build a summoner. Once I stopped trying to take summoner feats and build up summoner abilities, the class became better. There are certain high value summoner feats like Tandem Movement.
Obviously
I started to focus building for a role using archetype feats. Can you turn a summoner into a good healer that can do some damage? Yes.
Good healers are easy to build. I personally dont'build a healer that isn't doing other things.
Can you turn a summoner into a good tripper with some other abilities? Yes.
Pretty much any martial can do this. I prefer to start with a martial class that has good innate defences rather than a class you have to prime and use actions to get to the same state. Yes you do have the option of just doing it but why?.
Can you use battle forms to make the eidolon do more damage for a few fights a day? Yes.
How. Batte forms are all self only arent they, So you are putting it on the summoner?. I means it is not useless, but it is not great either.
It's one of those classes you have to play around with and think outside the box to make shine.
Which makes it a very unintuitive class. If you make the summoner with the idea of summoning or building around the eidolon as much more than a tool to set up other things, the class doesn't feel great.
If you look at the eidolon about like a martial looks at its weapon while seeking to build to do other actions, the summoner becomes much better.
It doesn't fulfill the summoner class fantasy, but it does have amazing action economy that you can build around if you don't focus on what the summoner does. Not exactly the reason you play a summoner, but I've found I'm enjoying thinking up ways to make the action economy useful.
None of your suggestions are difficult to do better with other classes.
Using a Summoner with Heal spells does not seem campaign effective unless you are playing an outdoors campaign where 1 encounter per day is the norm. All the wave casters are strong resource wise in such a setting.I can fill a summoners 4 actions useful yes. But once I have done so I have still got a substandard character. I'd rather build a more focussed character. The value of that 4th action is not nothing but it is not the same as the first 2.
It is definitely not fufilling the Summoner fantasy all that well. The summoner still has rules issues around ongoing effects, items, and melding. Very annoying that the first 2 at least haven't been cleared up.
I'm not saying the summoner doesn't work, it does, just not well and it is always a bit frustrating. I'm glad you like it, but your comments have not moved the needle for me at all. To me it sits with the Swashbuckler and Inventor as being basically functional but clearly a shade underdone in practice.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have played the Summoner a bit. It can do what you say, but I find it a bit frustrating as you can't do everything at one, and you have to be quite selective in your feat choices. It has the opposite problem of the wizard. Too many good feats to choose from.
Mostly I found myself spending all my actions to be somewhat competitive. So in effect I had less actions available to use.
So flexible, under done for damage output, has its uses, but very middle of the road as a class.
I can see how you came to this conclusion as it was my initial conclusion.
It took a while to see how to build a summoner. Once I stopped trying to take summoner feats and build up summoner abilities, the class became better. There are certain high value summoner feats like Tandem Movement.
Obviously
I started to focus building for a role using archetype feats. Can you turn a summoner into a good healer that can do some damage? Yes.
Good healers are easy to build. I personally dont'build a healer that isn't doing other things.
Can you turn a summoner into a good tripper with some other abilities? Yes.
Pretty much any martial can do this. I prefer to start with a martial class that has good innate defences rather than a class you have to prime and use actions to get to the same state. Yes you do have the option of just doing it but why?.
Can you use battle forms to make the eidolon do more damage for a few fights a day? Yes.
How. Batte forms are all self only arent they, So you are putting it on the summoner?. I means it is not useless, but it is not great either.
...
It's one of those classes you have to play around with and think outside the box to make shine.
Which makes it a very unintuitive class. If you make the summoner with the idea of summoning or building around the eidolon as much more than
The battle forms are a high level. You can buy the eidolon casting.
Magical Understudy for the cantrips.
Magical Adept allows you to eventually obtain 2 spells 2 levels behind the summoners maximum slots. I've been toying around with these. If you make a healer, you can take a heal to supplement you're healing abilities. I've also been toying with battle forms. If you are an arcane or primal summoner, you could eventually take dragon form or elemental form with those one of those two slots. Then have your eidolon turn into a battle form with Master level combat ability.
Magical Master at level 18 which further offers additional spells for supplemental casting. One spell of level 1 to 7.
You can get quite a bit of casting on an eidolon.
So far I've done a few runs up to level 6 and level 10 and level 11. I'm finding new ways to use the summoner in an interesting manner. I'll post one of my builds completely once I hit level 20.
I'm finding more and more stuff to do with the class. It's a very strange class. One of the more interesting classes to play around with and test than any of the others.
Sure, other healers can do stuff and have more straight healing. But they don't have master level combat or 10 hit points a level to build on as a chassis.
When I listed they can be a tripper, I mean they can be a tripper while being the healer and while engaging in Master level combat ability all wrapped up in one. It's a very weird class to build where you're taking these usually disconnected abilities and meshing them all together on one chassis.
That's why this class was so hard for me to value. Normally in PF2 I focus on building up some very focused ability on a class. But this summoner with its two different points of play. One a wave caster using charisma and the other a master level combat weapon with a different stat array and all these different feats and interactions has been strange to build into something powerful. It's very unintuitive and has taken some experimentation.
I also tested the eidolon with an animal companion and an undead companion. When you act together, you can use the single action you gain to command your minion. So your eidolon and the AC or UC attack with the eidolon.
It's not terrible at low level. Once your AC or UC gets an independent action, then it is pretty fluid to operate.
Biggest downside was it was pretty healing intensive. You should probably have a medicine focus to keep the AC or UC at full health while keeping your eidolon and summoner hit point pool at full health.
The battle forms are a high level. You can buy the eidolon casting.Magical Understudy for the cantrips.
Magical Adept allows you to eventually obtain 2 spells 2 levels behind the summoners maximum slots. I've been toying around with these. If you make a healer, you can take a heal to supplement you're healing abilities. I've also been toying with battle forms. If you are an arcane or primal summoner, you could eventually take dragon form or elemental form with those one of those two slots. Then have your eidolon turn into a battle form with Master level combat ability.
Magical Master at level 18 which further offers additional spells for supplemental casting. One spell of level 1 to 7.
You can get quite a bit of casting on an eidolon.
Yeah a casting build for some more spells on the Eidolon is OK. But you still end up investing a lots of feats for a relatively minor ability.
Those battle forms are all substandard on the Eidolon. The spells the Eiolon gets are 2 ranks lower than the summoners. You are getting interesting utility here not combat power. The Eildon will get to use its attack numbers which are OKish. This is not wildshape with a +2 status benefit, just spell slots and you have very few slots. You can't use items on the Eidolon for more slots like you can on the Summoner.
The battle forms are a high level. You can buy the eidolon casting.Magical Understudy for the cantrips.
Magical Adept allows you to eventually obtain 2 spells 2 levels behind the summoners maximum slots. I've been toying around with these. If you make a healer, you can take a heal to supplement you're healing abilities. I've also been toying with battle forms. If you are an arcane or primal summoner, you could eventually take dragon form or elemental form with those one of those two slots. Then have your eidolon turn into a battle form with Master level combat ability.
Magical Master at level 18 which further offers additional spells for supplemental casting. One spell of level 1 to 7.
You can get quite a bit of casting on an eidolon.
Yeah a casting build for some more spells on the Eidolon is OK. But you still end up investing a lots of feats for a relatively minor ability.
Those battle forms are all substandard on the Eidolon. The spells the Eiolon gets are 2 ranks lower than the summoners. You are getting interesting utility here not combat power. The Eildon will get to use its attack numbers which are OKish. This is not wildshape with a +2 status benefit, just spell slots and you have very few slots. You can't use items on the Eidolon for more slots like you can on the Summoner.
The interesting utility is part of what I'm looking at and the damage numbers might be better than the eidolon's individual weapon, at least for certain forms. I'll see how it works.
Nice thing is I could act together, 2 action cast battle form, one action boost, and still have the eidolon attack in the same round.
The boost eidolon ability is a status bonus to damage which is based on die per weapon damage die. So should work with battle forms you think?
How do you see that?
I'm seeing a boost eidolon ability that would work with battle forms cast by the eidolon.
I'm seeing a boost eidolon ability that would work with battle forms cast by the eidolon.
Agreed that works.
I think the summoner is a class that in the future should be renamed. Especially given that the primary benefit of summoning is that summoned creatures eat damage and actions instead of you and your party, and the summoner's eidolon doesn't fit that. Instead of being a summoner it is an advanced pet classTBH being the advanced pet class was the theme for the PF1 Summoner even before we had its playtest (and the class' name).
Yeah, but there was some excuse there with the whole ability to cast summon spells as a class feature and the eidolon having its own health pool. I don't remember how it was changed for the unchained version that nerfed it, but I believe those aspects remained intact
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
While I get the want for a flexible summoner with what it summons, people are being HUGELY disingenuous suggesting that the eidolon isn't a summoned creature or is only so 'technically'.
I would like to see a master summoner style class archetype though, maybe a focus point based set of summoning abilities similar to wildshape.
As for the summoner as it is. I have only had one player play it, they excelled in combats, but the player is by far my most mechanically minded and always tends to be the best in combats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can fill a summoners 4 actions useful yes. But once I have done so I have still got a substandard character.
Before feat allocation, the Summoner beats specialists at their speciality. It's better at maneuvers than Strength-based martials (as long as you take a Strength-based Eidolon), better healer than Divine/Primal casters (as long as you play a Divine/Primal Summoner), better at ranged damage than ranged damage dealers (as long as you take Ranged Combattant and Electric Arc).
It's only through feat allocation that specialists beat the Summoner in their own domain, and it's mostly because of feat access: the Summoner doesn't have access to feats to boost all of the domains.There's only one domain where the Summoner is irredeemably bad: melee combat. That's why I consider Ranged Combattant to be a tax feat, as otherwise you're either forced into the only domain you're bad at or you have to put aside dealing damage with your Eidolon, which is a bit limiting.
When you use 4 actions with your Summoner you don't end up substandard but very competitive, far too competitive for a versatile character who can cover a bunch of domains. That's why I consider the Summoner to be a top tier class.
I can fill a summoners 4 actions useful yes. But once I have done so I have still got a substandard character.Before feat allocation, the Summoner beats specialists at their speciality. It's better at maneuvers than Strength-based martials (as long as you take a Strength-based Eidolon), better healer than Divine/Primal casters (as long as you play a Divine/Primal Summoner), better at ranged damage than ranged damage dealers (as long as you take Ranged Combattant and Electric Arc).
How are any of these true?
Strength based martials can have the same Strength score. They get the same item bonuses. Yes they have some cool feats at level 10 with Weighty Impact then 12 with Grasping Limbs. This makes them competitive, but they aren't better as they miss out on ancestry abilities like Great Gnoll which they just don't get, Plus low level class feats like Combat Grab and Knockdown. Still all those are likely to be tweeked in the remaster.Primal and Divine Caster are just better healers.So except for one off daily powers the eildon summmoner is not a better healer. Let us not forget there are reasonable GMs who won't let an Eidolon use a healers kit.
Ranged damage and you are talking about a d4 30ft range weapon attacking twice plus an electric arc? I guess that is reasonable given your spell DC is OK. But is that is is nothing to what other ranged characters can do. Further 30ft range is so small as to be useless fairly often.
It's only through feat allocation that specialists beat the Summoner in their own domain, and it's mostly because of feat access: the Summoner doesn't have access to feats to boost all of the domains.
Right so you are comparing Summoners with a couple of feats to other characters who have not invested any feats?
IThere's only one domain where the Summoner is irredeemably bad: melee combat. That's why I consider Ranged Combattant to be a tax feat, as otherwise you're either forced into the only domain you're bad at or you have to put aside dealing damage with your Eidolon, which is a bit limiting.
When you use 4 actions with your Summoner you don't end up substandard but very competitive, far too competitive for a versatile character who can cover a bunch of domains. That's why I consider the Summoner to be a top tier class.
See I'm never quite happy with it as I find you can't normally avoid melee combat
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't find melee combat that bad with an eidolon. With a d8 trip weapon the eidolon seems to be doing fine. I'm setting up for Weighty Impact, so we'll see how that goes.
I don't find melee combat that bad with an eidolon. With a d8 trip weapon the eidolon seems to be doing fine. I'm setting up for Weighty Impact, so we'll see how that goes.I love Weighty Impact. It's only so-so for you personally because of how many actions it will usually eat up, but it's an amazing force multiplier if you have even one other melee-focused character in your party. It's also great to pair with Eidolon's Opportunity.
That's the plan. You can attack, trip, and still cast a two action spell or boost and attack twice.