In the new kineticist class, there is some confusion around how winter sleet works.
The text of Winter Sleet says
> 'A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances (DC 15).'
If you have Water Impulse Junction,
> 'After the impulse's other effects, you can move one creature targeted by the impulse or in its area 5 feet in any direction'
So, if you have an enemy creature in the aura, you can move them once per round and that makes them go prone. Is that a correct reading?
Yes. This is covered by Forced Movement:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 475 4.0 - Forced Movement wrote: If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy. Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature. So unless the GM decides different you can force move a creature to an uneven ground to try to force it to do a balance check.
Also note that at this level monsters with acrobatics can pass this Balance DC pretty easily.
Forced Movement can not force a creature into a dangerous position
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YuriP wrote: Yes. This is covered by Forced Movement:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 475 4.0 - Forced Movement wrote: If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy. Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature. So unless the GM decides different you can force move a creature to an uneven ground to try to force it to do a balance check.
Also note that at this level monsters with acrobatics can pass this Balance DC pretty easily.
A lot of monsters do not have acrobatics though.
Cordell Kintner wrote: Forced Movement can not force a creature into a dangerous position That's the opposite of the rules. See the post above you.
Winter Sleet text is a partial summary of the uneven ground rules. Are they expecting you to apply all of them (including a reflex save against the same DC when hit)? I don’t know.
I think water’s junction move can’t move you into dangerous spaces, and I think an auto prone is dangerous. And the aura with crit effect is already extra powerful. But I would apply the reflex save (which they’ll make except on a 1) as per normal uneven ground.
Note that water has push impulses like Tidal Hands and Call the Hurricane. I think a push from those would knock them prone in the aura.
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Ghaar Drona wrote: YuriP wrote: Yes. This is covered by Forced Movement:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 475 4.0 - Forced Movement wrote: If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy. Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature. So unless the GM decides different you can force move a creature to an uneven ground to try to force it to do a balance check.
Also note that at this level monsters with acrobatics can pass this Balance DC pretty easily.
A lot of monsters do not have acrobatics though.
Cordell Kintner wrote: Forced Movement can not force a creature into a dangerous position That's the opposite of the rules. See the post above you. You missed the part right before the bold text that states "If you’re pushed or pulled". This impulse does not push or pull anything. Shoving pushes the target for example, so someone could Shove a creature into your aura, and they might slip and fall, but your Impulse Junction can not.
The basic rule of thumb is that if an effect doesn't say it pushes or pulls a creature, it doesn't.
Ignoring whether or not water impulse junction is allowed to move them into the area of Winter Sleet, if someone is moved into the area they get to make an acrobatics check to avoid going prone. They do not automatically go prone.
And, it's worth noting that just because a skill isn't listed in a monster's entry doesn't mean they have a 0 in that skill. Especially in an instance like this, as a GM I would run any NPC as having a low (for their level) skill modifier if it is not listed.
Claxon wrote: Ignoring whether or not water impulse junction is allowed to move them into the area of Winter Sleet, if someone is moved into the area they get to make an acrobatics check to avoid going prone. They do not automatically go prone.
And, it's worth noting that just because a skill isn't listed in a monster's entry doesn't mean they have a 0 in that skill. Especially in an instance like this, as a GM I would run any NPC as having a low (for their level) skill modifier if it is not listed.
I think that giving everything under the sun an extra skill just to "nerf" one of the players is just a bad idea.
Especially acrobatics is not something obscure in monster stat blocks, it is actually extremely common. So it stands to reason that it's not random omission if something doesn't have it but a deliberate decision.
That said, the only way to force something on hazardous terrain is push/pull abilities or if an ability directly states that.
Water has a couple of those, but the instinct gate is not one of them.
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Winter’s Sleet is NOT “hazardous terrain” which has its own definition. You need to rely on GM interpretation of the undefined prohibition against “dangerous places” if you want to stop the water impulse with the forced movement rules. It’s obviously meant to apply to damaging areas. A condition is less obvious.
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"dangerous places" doesn't have a definition to begin with.
The closest we have is "hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like."
The last part ("or the like") clearly indicates that this is not an exhausting list, but it is meant to include other things (things that would cause you harm).
But it is indeed open to gm interpretation what is the exact line that makes something dangerous.
In any case just moving them away wastes an action of the target if it moves them out of reach or out of the aura. The have to Balance to get back into reach, or the they have to stride/step into the aura, then Balance to move any further.
Claxon wrote: And, it's worth noting that just because a skill isn't listed in a monster's entry doesn't mean they have a 0 in that skill. But it means exactly that:
"Skills The creature is trained or better in these skills. For untrained skills, use the corresponding ability modifier. "
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=785
Errenor wrote: Claxon wrote: And, it's worth noting that just because a skill isn't listed in a monster's entry doesn't mean they have a 0 in that skill. But it means exactly that:
"Skills The creature is trained or better in these skills. For untrained skills, use the corresponding ability modifier. "
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=785 The problem with this assessment is that it doesn't take into account the general design paradigms Paizo put into effect, and then ignored when writing this ability.
It shouldn't use Acrobatics, or rather should also allow a reflex save much like grease. Rarely does anything force a monster to make a skill check in reaction to something PCs do, it's usually saves or checks against AC. It's bad design (IMO) to call for an acrobatics check or reflex save.
Because of that, I would give monster that do not have a listed acrobatics modifier a low skill value. Though upon further consideration, I'd probably just make this ability like grease and say acrobatics or reflex. That's probably the best way to run it.
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Claxon wrote:
The problem with this assessment is that it doesn't take into account the general design paradigms Paizo put into effect, and then ignored when writing this ability.
It shouldn't use Acrobatics, or rather should also allow a reflex save much like grease. Rarely does anything force a monster to make a skill check in reaction to something PCs do, it's usually saves or checks against AC. It's bad design (IMO) to call for an acrobatics check or reflex save.
Because of that, I would give monster that do not have a listed acrobatics modifier a low skill value. Though upon further consideration, I'd probably just make this ability like grease and say acrobatics or reflex. That's probably the best way to run it.
I think this is pearl clutching.
Here's some smelling salts: only about 40% of creatures don't acrobatics. Many of those will be ranged or spellcasters and not care about or able to ignore this aura. Others will have enough reach (prior to Aura Shaping) to make this not matter much. Still others will almost all have a decent attribute and so won't crit fail except on a 1, and only have a 50% or less chance of wasting an action.
And then there's fly speeds.
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Claxon wrote: Errenor wrote: Claxon wrote: And, it's worth noting that just because a skill isn't listed in a monster's entry doesn't mean they have a 0 in that skill. But it means exactly that:
"Skills The creature is trained or better in these skills. For untrained skills, use the corresponding ability modifier. "
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=785 The problem with this assessment is that it doesn't take into account the general design paradigms Paizo put into effect, and then ignored when writing this ability.
It shouldn't use Acrobatics, or rather should also allow a reflex save much like grease. Rarely does anything force a monster to make a skill check in reaction to something PCs do, it's usually saves or checks against AC. It's bad design (IMO) to call for an acrobatics check or reflex save.
Because of that, I would give monster that do not have a listed acrobatics modifier a low skill value. Though upon further consideration, I'd probably just make this ability like grease and say acrobatics or reflex. That's probably the best way to run it. I want to know about RAW, not your house rules. If a monster doesn't have Acrobatics, then RAW they use their Dex Attribute Modifier. There is no ambiguity about that. Making that Acrobatics or Reflex is clearly a house rule.
Cordell Kintner wrote: Ghaar Drona wrote: YuriP wrote: Yes. This is covered by Forced Movement:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 475 4.0 - Forced Movement wrote: If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy. Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature. So unless the GM decides different you can force move a creature to an uneven ground to try to force it to do a balance check.
Also note that at this level monsters with acrobatics can pass this Balance DC pretty easily.
A lot of monsters do not have acrobatics though.
Cordell Kintner wrote: Forced Movement can not force a creature into a dangerous position That's the opposite of the rules. See the post above you. You missed the part right before the bold text that states "If you’re pushed or pulled". This impulse does not push or pull anything. Shoving pushes the target for example, so someone could Shove a creature into your aura, and they might slip and fall, but your Impulse Junction can not.
The basic rule of thumb is that if an effect doesn't say it pushes or pulls a creature, it doesn't. Push and pull aren't well defined. I don't understand why you came to the conclusion that Water Impulse Junction doesn't push or pull. Do you have a reference for the claim that 'The basic rule of thumb is that if an effect doesn't say it pushes or pulls a creature, it doesn't.'?
I disagree that push and pull aren't well defined. Lots of things say they're a push. If they don't, they aren't a push. (Pull is rarer, but still has to say it is one.)
In this book alone you can get a push from three different water impulses, Steam Knight composite, and the air crit junction.
Ghaar Drona wrote: Cordell Kintner wrote: Ghaar Drona wrote: YuriP wrote: Yes. This is covered by Forced Movement:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 475 4.0 - Forced Movement wrote: If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy. Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature. So unless the GM decides different you can force move a creature to an uneven ground to try to force it to do a balance check.
Also note that at this level monsters with acrobatics can pass this Balance DC pretty easily.
A lot of monsters do not have acrobatics though.
Cordell Kintner wrote: Forced Movement can not force a creature into a dangerous position That's the opposite of the rules. See the post above you. You missed the part right before the bold text that states "If you’re pushed or pulled". This impulse does not push or pull anything. Shoving pushes the target for example, so someone could Shove a creature into your aura, and they might slip and fall, but your Impulse Junction can not.
The basic rule of thumb is that if an effect doesn't say it pushes or pulls a creature, it doesn't. Push and pull aren't well defined. I don't understand why you came to the conclusion that Water Impulse Junction doesn't push or pull. Do you have a reference for the claim that 'The basic rule of thumb is that if an effect doesn't say it pushes or pulls a creature, it doesn't.'?
becasue everything that pushes or pulls says so.
it's pretty cut and dry RAW wise.
Xenocrat wrote: I disagree that push and pull aren't well defined. Lots of things say they're a push. If they don't, they aren't a push. (Pull is rarer, but still has to say it is one.)
In this book alone you can get a push from three different water impulses, Steam Knight composite, and the air crit junction.
If push and pull are well defined, can you provide me with a definition with a reference?
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Ghaar Drona wrote: Xenocrat wrote: I disagree that push and pull aren't well defined. Lots of things say they're a push. If they don't, they aren't a push. (Pull is rarer, but still has to say it is one.)
In this book alone you can get a push from three different water impulses, Steam Knight composite, and the air crit junction.
If push and pull are well defined, can you provide me with a definition with a reference? No, I won't insult you by pretending you don't really understand this.
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shroudb wrote: becasue everything that pushes or pulls says so.
it's pretty cut and dry RAW wise.
Having read this:
"Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise."
and searched for 'push' and 'move' throughout CRB, I think it's not as cut and dry as you think. I think 'some other way' is for more exotic ways of moving than from one adjacent square to another because of an external force, even if this is not called 'pushing' or 'pulling'. Meaning, all instances of physically moving from one adjacent square to another (and further) because of an external force are pushing or pulling. Another case of natural language. At least when it's not moving with grabbed creature, and even that could be possible (4th printing FAQ-clarifications).
BOULDER ROLL wrote:
Your dwarven build allows you to push foes around, just like a mighty boulder tumbles through a subterranean cavern. Take a Step into the square of a foe that is your size or smaller, and the foe must move into the empty space directly behind it. The foe must move even if doing so places it in harm’s way.
Here, 'push' is only in the flavor part. So, no pushing, right? Yes, there's an explicit permission for damaging movement. I don't think it matters. It's still a push.
Club wrote: You knock the target away from you up to 10 feet (you choose the distance). This is forced movement. 'Knock away' - no pushing then and no dangerous movement? I think it's nonsense. Same for shield, only 'knock back'.
Polearm wrote: The target is moved 5 feet in a direction of your choice. This is forced movement (page 475). And again? No way.
Levitate 'moves' creatures, so no movement just because there's a wall of fire in the air? Makes no sense.
There's really no strict definition of 'pushing' and 'pulling' in the rules, so natural language applies.
Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: becasue everything that pushes or pulls says so.
it's pretty cut and dry RAW wise.
Having read this:
"Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise."
and searched for 'push' and 'move' throughout CRB, I think it's not as cut and dry as you think. I think 'some other way' is for more exotic ways of moving than from one adjacent square to another because of an external force, even if this is not called 'pushing' or 'pulling'. Meaning, all instances of physically moving from one adjacent square to another (and further) because of an external force are pushing or pulling. Another case of natural language. At least when it's not moving with grabbed creature, and even that could be possible (4th printing FAQ-clarifications).
BOULDER ROLL wrote:
Your dwarven build allows you to push foes around, just like a mighty boulder tumbles through a subterranean cavern. Take a Step into the square of a foe that is your size or smaller, and the foe must move into the empty space directly behind it. The foe must move even if doing so places it in harm’s way.
Here, 'push' is only in the flavor part. So, no pushing, right? Yes, there's an explicit permission for damaging movement. I don't think it matters. It's still a push.
Club wrote: You knock the target away from you up to 10 feet (you choose the distance). This is forced movement. 'Knock away' - no pushing then and no dangerous movement? I think it's nonsense. Same for shield, only 'knock back'.
Polearm wrote: The target is moved 5 feet in a direction of your choice. This is forced movement (page 475). And again? No way.
Levitate 'moves' creatures, so no movement just because there's a wall of fire in the air? Makes no sense.
There's really no strict definition of 'pushing' and 'pulling' in the rules, so natural language applies. there is no "flavour text" and "rules text"
indeed, you cannot move with your polearm someone off a cliff, while you can push them with your dwarven thick build, because one specifically says you push them, and the other does not.
knock away is also not a push, while feats like knockback specifically say they push.
you may not *like* (or think they make no sense) that you cannot levitate someone into a wall of fire, but that is the rules as written.
when there are multiple abilities that specifically say "push" and "pull", and there are others that do not, I think it's pretty cut and dry that those that say they do, do, and those that don't say they do, don't.
Edit: the above doesn't mean that a gm can't allow something to work, either because it makes sense to him or because it sounds cool (hell, I know that I usually allow people to fling monsters off in the air because it's cool) just that RAW a player should usually temper his expectations with forced movement abilities.
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shroudb wrote: you may not *like* (or think they make no sense) that you cannot levitate someone into a wall of fire, but that is the rules as written. You may not *like* it (or be sure of the opposite), but there's no RAW what is and what isn't 'pushing' and 'pulling' at all. They are not 'key' words like you surmise. The only thing which would make it RAW is a definition in the rules.
And I have even checked the glossary - nope, not even there. They are not game terms.
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Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: you may not *like* (or think they make no sense) that you cannot levitate someone into a wall of fire, but that is the rules as written. You may not *like* it (or be sure of the opposite), but there's no RAW what is and what isn't 'pushing' and 'pulling' at all. They are not 'key' words like you surmise. The only thing which would make it RAW is a definition in the rules.
And I have even checked the glossary - nope, not even there. They are not game terms. There are actions that say that they push or pull, and actions that don't.
You don't need everything to be a keyword.
It is as simple as that.
WINTER SLEET says that "A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances". The exact meaning is "A creature that uses an action with move trait on this uneven ground immediately falls unless the action is Balance."
Considering this, moving a creature after using a 2A impulse of water is certainly the forced movement instead of an action with move trait.
Therefore, the creature neither falls, nor needs to attempt an Acrobatic or Reflex check.
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Deus Ciplin wrote: WINTER SLEET says that "A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances". The exact meaning is "A creature that uses an action with move trait on this uneven ground immediately falls unless the action is Balance."
Considering this, moving a creature after using a 2A impulse of water is certainly the forced movement instead of an action with move trait.
Therefore, the creature neither falls, nor needs to attempt an Acrobatic or Reflex check.
So if an ally moves you using some class feature, you are immune from Winter Sleet?
Ghaar Drona wrote: Deus Ciplin wrote: WINTER SLEET says that "A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances". The exact meaning is "A creature that uses an action with move trait on this uneven ground immediately falls unless the action is Balance."
Considering this, moving a creature after using a 2A impulse of water is certainly the forced movement instead of an action with move trait.
Therefore, the creature neither falls, nor needs to attempt an Acrobatic or Reflex check.
So if an ally moves you using some class feature, you are immune from Winter Sleet? If the class feature says it pushes or pulls, you fall. If it doesn't, you don't (if your GM rules that Winter Sleet counts as "dangerous" terrain). You still are off-balance (flat-footed) and have to Balance if you make any of your own movement, so you're not immune to Winter Sleet.
Xenocrat wrote: Ghaar Drona wrote: Deus Ciplin wrote: WINTER SLEET says that "A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances". The exact meaning is "A creature that uses an action with move trait on this uneven ground immediately falls unless the action is Balance."
Considering this, moving a creature after using a 2A impulse of water is certainly the forced movement instead of an action with move trait.
Therefore, the creature neither falls, nor needs to attempt an Acrobatic or Reflex check.
So if an ally moves you using some class feature, you are immune from Winter Sleet? If the class feature says it pushes or pulls, you fall. If it doesn't, you don't (if your GM rules that Winter Sleet counts as "dangerous" terrain). You still are off-balance (flat-footed) and have to Balance if you make any of your own movement, so you're not immune to Winter Sleet. I am not convinced that there is any rules distinction between you using your movement and your ally moving you. That has never been the case in any of the earlier class features.
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Wym?
Forced movement by an ally has always been a thing, as an example an ally shoving you to break you out of a grapple.
Looking at the RAW, here is how interactions with Winter Sleet would work:
1) The aura junction does allow you to move a creature you hit or that fails it's save against a water impulse. This move immediately triggers the creature to go prone, since it is unable to use the single action "balance" and it moved.
2) All push/pull effects that happen to a creature in the aura immediately cause the creature to go prone, since they are unable to use the single action "balance" and it moved.
3) Any creature that is prone in the aura will immediately go prone if they attempt to stand while inside the aura, since they are unable to take a single "balance" action to stand. A prone creature must crawl outside the Aura in order to use the action "stand" without immediately falling prone.
4) Each time you are hit by an attack or fail a save on uneven ground, you must succeed at a Reflex save (with the same DC as the Acrobatics check to Balance) or fall prone. Winter Sleet states that "Surfaces in your kinetic aura are coated in slippery ice. A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances (DC 15). A creature is off-guard on the ice, as normal for uneven ground."
5) A GM could rule that "or the like" under the forced movement rule qualifies as a "dangerous place". In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature.
Deus Ciplin wrote: WINTER SLEET says that "A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances". The exact meaning is "A creature that uses an action with move trait on this uneven ground immediately falls unless the action is Balance."
Considering this, moving a creature after using a 2A impulse of water is certainly the forced movement instead of an action with move trait.
Therefore, the creature neither falls, nor needs to attempt an Acrobatic or Reflex check.
The exact meaning is:
A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it uses the action Balance.
Winter Sleet says nothing about requiring the movement to have the move trait in order to trigger immediately falling.
Ghaar Drona wrote: YuriP wrote: Yes. This is covered by Forced Movement:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 475 4.0 - Forced Movement wrote: If forced movement would move you into a space you can’t occupy—because objects are in the way or because you lack the movement type needed to reach it, for example—you stop moving in the last space you can occupy. Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement chooses the path the victim takes. If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature. So unless the GM decides different you can force move a creature to an uneven ground to try to force it to do a balance check.
Also note that at this level monsters with acrobatics can pass this Balance DC pretty easily.
A lot of monsters do not have acrobatics though. Balance is an untrained Acrobatics action. Everyone/thing may attempt a balance check, even if they are not trained in Acrobatics.
I would say the Water impulse junction can not move a creature into your aura with this stance on. If they were Pushed or Pulled into the aura, they would get an automatic Balance check (no actions required) to not fall. The only reason it's a "Balance" check and not an acrobatics check, is so creatures with some sort of bonus to Balance checks specifically (like the Steady Balance skill feat) can make use of them.
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Cordell Kintner wrote: I would say the Water impulse junction can not move a creature into your aura with this stance on. If they were Pushed or Pulled into the aura, they would get an automatic Balance check (no actions required) to not fall. The only reason it's a "Balance" check and not an acrobatics check, is so creatures with some sort of bonus to Balance checks specifically (like the Steady Balance skill feat) can make use of them. There's no such thing as a "Balance check." Balance is a single action with the Move trait that uses an acrobatics check to determine the degree of success and the results.
I think the best distinction for Winter Sleet's interaction is the agency of the movement. Winter Sleet says that, "[a] creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances." Arguably, a creature that moves is actively doing so of its own volition as opposed to a creature that is moved being repositioned by forced movement.
Thus, I'd rule that forced movement can put a creature into or reposition it within the area of effect but does make them fall prone. While in the area, the creature cannot Stride or Step, but must use the Balance action to move.
eboats wrote: Looking at the RAW, here is how interactions with Winter Sleet would work:
1) The aura junction does allow you to move a creature you hit or that fails it's save against a water impulse. This move immediately triggers the creature to go prone, since it is unable to use the single action "balance" and it moved.
2) All push/pull effects that happen to a creature in the aura immediately cause the creature to go prone, since they are unable to use the single action "balance" and it moved.
3) Any creature that is prone in the aura will immediately go prone if they attempt to stand while inside the aura, since they are unable to take a single "balance" action to stand. A prone creature must crawl outside the Aura in order to use the action "stand" without immediately falling prone.
4) Each time you are hit by an attack or fail a save on uneven ground, you must succeed at a Reflex save (with the same DC as the Acrobatics check to Balance) or fall prone. Winter Sleet states that "Surfaces in your kinetic aura are coated in slippery ice. A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances (DC 15). A creature is off-guard on the ice, as normal for uneven ground."
5) A GM could rule that "or the like" under the forced movement rule qualifies as a "dangerous place". In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature.
1) The water impulse junction does allow you to move a creature you hit or that fails it's save against a water impulse. This move immediately triggers the creature to go prone, since it is unable to use the single action "balance" and it moved.
Fixed point 1, since the aura junction has no interaction.
Cordell Kintner wrote: I would say the Water impulse junction can not move a creature into your aura with this stance on. If they were Pushed or Pulled into the aura, they would get an automatic Balance check (no actions required) to not fall. The only reason it's a "Balance" check and not an acrobatics check, is so creatures with some sort of bonus to Balance checks specifically (like the Steady Balance skill feat) can make use of them. Balance is an action and not a passive check in pathfinder 2e. The only reason it requires the action Balance instead of an Acrobatics check is because the rules were written that way for Uneven Ground and Winter Sleet.
Pixel Popper wrote: Cordell Kintner wrote: I would say the Water impulse junction can not move a creature into your aura with this stance on. If they were Pushed or Pulled into the aura, they would get an automatic Balance check (no actions required) to not fall. The only reason it's a "Balance" check and not an acrobatics check, is so creatures with some sort of bonus to Balance checks specifically (like the Steady Balance skill feat) can make use of them. There's no such thing as a "Balance check." Balance is a single action with the Move trait that uses an acrobatics check to determine the degree of success and the results.
I think the best distinction for Winter Sleet's interaction is the agency of the movement. Winter Sleet says that, "[a] creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances." Arguably, a creature that moves is actively doing so of its own volition as opposed to a creature that is moved being repositioned by forced movement.
Thus, I'd rule that forced movement can put a creature into or reposition it within the area of effect but does make them fall prone. While in the area, the creature cannot Stride or Step, but must use the Balance action to move. Because willing/unwilling isn't used in Winter Sleet as it is in other spells and abilities where the creature's own volition matters in the outcome, the general use of "move" would be more appropriate since the specific of willing/unwilling you are inferring isn't stated. Flinging Updraft is a Kineticist feat that shows how that wording is used. We also see the use of willing/unwilling in the Water Impulse Junction itself regarding movement.
eboats wrote: Pixel Popper wrote: Cordell Kintner wrote: I would say the Water impulse junction can not move a creature into your aura with this stance on. If they were Pushed or Pulled into the aura, they would get an automatic Balance check (no actions required) to not fall. The only reason it's a "Balance" check and not an acrobatics check, is so creatures with some sort of bonus to Balance checks specifically (like the Steady Balance skill feat) can make use of them. There's no such thing as a "Balance check." Balance is a single action with the Move trait that uses an acrobatics check to determine the degree of success and the results.
I think the best distinction for Winter Sleet's interaction is the agency of the movement. Winter Sleet says that, "[a] creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances." Arguably, a creature that moves is actively doing so of its own volition as opposed to a creature that is moved being repositioned by forced movement.
Thus, I'd rule that forced movement can put a creature into or reposition it within the area of effect but does make them fall prone. While in the area, the creature cannot Stride or Step, but must use the Balance action to move. Because willing/unwilling isn't used in Winter Sleet as it is in other spells and abilities where the creature's own volition matters in the outcome, the general use of "move" would be more appropriate since the specific of willing/unwilling you are inferring isn't stated. Flinging Updraft is a Kineticist feat that shows how that wording is used. We also see the use of willing/unwilling in the Water Impulse Junction itself regarding movement. Counterargument:
Water junction is not push/pull since it doesn't say so.
So under forced movement rules you are unable to move someone in the "dangerous terrain" of your winter sleet aura.
shroudb wrote: eboats wrote: Pixel Popper wrote: Cordell Kintner wrote: I would say the Water impulse junction can not move a creature into your aura with this stance on. If they were Pushed or Pulled into the aura, they would get an automatic Balance check (no actions required) to not fall. The only reason it's a "Balance" check and not an acrobatics check, is so creatures with some sort of bonus to Balance checks specifically (like the Steady Balance skill feat) can make use of them. There's no such thing as a "Balance check." Balance is a single action with the Move trait that uses an acrobatics check to determine the degree of success and the results.
I think the best distinction for Winter Sleet's interaction is the agency of the movement. Winter Sleet says that, "[a] creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances." Arguably, a creature that moves is actively doing so of its own volition as opposed to a creature that is moved being repositioned by forced movement.
Thus, I'd rule that forced movement can put a creature into or reposition it within the area of effect but does make them fall prone. While in the area, the creature cannot Stride or Step, but must use the Balance action to move. Because willing/unwilling isn't used in Winter Sleet as it is in other spells and abilities where the creature's own volition matters in the outcome, the general use of "move" would be more appropriate since the specific of willing/unwilling you are inferring isn't stated. Flinging Updraft is a Kineticist feat that shows how that wording is used. We also see the use of willing/unwilling in the Water Impulse Junction itself regarding movement. Counterargument:
Water junction is not push/pull since it doesn't say so.
So under forced movement rules you are unable to move someone in the "dangerous terrain" of your winter sleet aura. Please see point 5.
Looking at the RAW, here is how interactions with Winter Sleet would work:
1) The water impulse junction does allow you to move a creature you hit or that fails it's save against a water impulse. This move immediately triggers the creature to go prone, since it is unable to use the single action "balance" and it moved.
2) All push/pull effects that happen to a creature in the aura immediately cause the creature to go prone, since they are unable to use the single action "balance" and it moved.
3) Any creature that is prone in the aura will immediately go prone if they attempt to stand while inside the aura, since they are unable to take a single "balance" action to stand. A prone creature must crawl outside the Aura in order to use the action "stand" without immediately falling prone.
4) Each time you are hit by an attack or fail a save on uneven ground, you must succeed at a Reflex save (with the same DC as the Acrobatics check to Balance) or fall prone. Winter Sleet states that "Surfaces in your kinetic aura are coated in slippery ice. A creature that moves on this uneven ground immediately falls unless it Balances (DC 15). A creature is off-guard on the ice, as normal for uneven ground."
5) A GM could rule that "or the like" under the forced movement rule qualifies as a "dangerous place". In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature.
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Pixel Popper wrote: There's no such thing as a "Balance check." Excuse me, I guess since we're arguing semantics here, an "Acrobatics check to Balance"
Pixel Popper wrote: Balance is a single action with the Move trait that uses an acrobatics check to determine the degree of success and the results. Balance is a very poorly designed action and doesn't even work as intended. It is much cleaner of an action if it is a free action that is triggered when you enter an area where you would need to balance, with similar results as it has now. That way, you wouldn't have to move onto a surface with an action and then spend another action to immediately start to Balance, and it can handle situations like this where you need to Balance when it's not your turn.
By the way, what happens if you use your last action of a turn to Stride into uneven ground? You can't Balance, so do you just fall prone without a check, even if you could make it on a nat 1?
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I have to agree with Cordell here.
Currently Balance design space is too limited. I understand the idea of take an action to balance while move as a way to represent the "concentration" e difficult to do movement but this is limited to your turn and simply we don't have nothing that covers off-turn situation like forced movement over uneven ground.
Currently I homebrew Balance as reaction too (free-action is too much) similar to Grab an Edge to cover situations where isn't your turn because don't make any sense to a char proficient in acrobatics to be unable to check because isn't its turn.
Something like this:
Keep Balance [reaction]
Trait Move
Trigger You was moved to a narrow surface, uneven ground, or another similar feature by another force or condition that wasn't your own action.
Failure You fall prone, if is your turn it ends.
This is better than just auto-prone when you enter in an uneven ground without using Balance.
Cordell Kintner wrote: By the way, what happens if you use your last action of a turn to Stride into uneven ground? You can't Balance, so do you just fall prone without a check, even if you could make it on a nat 1? Basically currently you just fall without check in the end of your action because you used Stride instead of Balance.
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Cordell Kintner wrote: Pixel Popper wrote: There's no such thing as a "Balance check." Excuse me, I guess since we're arguing semantics here, an "Acrobatics check to Balance"
Pixel Popper wrote: Balance is a single action with the Move trait that uses an acrobatics check to determine the degree of success and the results. Balance is a very poorly designed action and doesn't even work as intended. It is much cleaner of an action if it is a free action that is triggered when you enter an area where you would need to balance, with similar results as it has now. That way, you wouldn't have to move onto a surface with an action and then spend another action to immediately start to Balance, and it can handle situations like this where you need to Balance when it's not your turn.
By the way, what happens if you use your last action of a turn to Stride into uneven ground? You can't Balance, so do you just fall prone without a check, even if you could make it on a nat 1? You would stop in the first square of uneven ground you entered so that you could meet the conditions to use the Balance action the next turn, or per the rules on Uneven Ground: Uneven ground is an area unsteady enough that you need to Balance (see Acrobatics) or risk falling prone and possibly injuring yourself, depending on the specifics of the uneven ground.
It is similar to how Climb works. You use a stride to get to the square where you want to Climb with an action. Then you use another action to Climb. You don't get to combine movement between 2 different move actions.
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However, you do not start a Climb action when you're already clinging to the wall, so why would you start a Balance action when you're already in an situation that requires balance?
Nothing you posted says that entering Uneven Ground makes you stop moving, only that you need to Balance or fall. Therefore if you don't use the Balance action you would automatically fall.
There is nothing rules wrong with a specific rule requiring a Balance check as a free action or a reaction or just even as a non action. It does not have to be an action which is effectively part of movement in your turn - that is just the normal way.
Winter Sleet is odd because it requires a specific skill check and sets a specific DC. This is very weird. Normally it would be a Reflex save against your Spell DC. That would be typical.
However it is not, So RAW it is going to come down to whether that creature has an acrobatics skill or not. If it does it is likely to be an easy check. If it does not is going to be a very hard check as they aren't adding their level to it.
Over to each GM if they think that is broken and needs to be patched.
Cordell Kintner wrote: However, you do not start a Climb action when you're already clinging to the wall, so why would you start a Balance action when you're already in an situation that requires balance?
Nothing you posted says that entering Uneven Ground makes you stop moving, only that you need to Balance or fall. Therefore if you don't use the Balance action you would automatically fall.
You aren't in a situation that requires the Balance action until you choose to be with Winter Sleet if you are entering it with your stride. It would work the same as using 1 action to stride, stopping your stride at the appropriate point, then using a 2nd action to step to avoid triggering AoO.
The difference is in this case you are stopping where you would need to in order to meet the Requirements You are in a square that contains a narrow surface, uneven ground, or another similar feature. for Balance, so that you can use a 2nd action to Balance. If you chose not to do that, Winter Sleet is very clear that you will automatically go prone.
Gortle wrote: There is nothing rules wrong with a specific rule requiring a Balance check as a free action or a reaction or just even as a non action. It does not have to be an action which is effectively part of movement in your turn - that is just the normal way.
Winter Sleet is odd because it requires a specific skill check and sets a specific DC. This is very weird. Normally it would be a Reflex save against your Spell DC. That would be typical.
However it is not, So RAW it is going to come down to whether that creature has an acrobatics skill or not. If it does it is likely to be an easy check. If it does not is going to be a very hard check as they aren't adding their level to it.
Over to each GM if they think that is broken and needs to be patched.
If we look at Tumble Through for comparison to Balance. It is also a movement action, but it specifically states: You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy. Attempt an Acrobatics check against the enemy’s Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space.
The Balance action does not have this specificity. There is no Balance free action, there is no Balance reaction that exist in this game. Winter Sleet isn't asking for a free Acrobatics to be rolled. Winter sleet is saying that if you don't use the move action Balance you fall.
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eboats wrote: Gortle wrote: There is nothing rules wrong with a specific rule requiring a Balance check as a free action or a reaction or just even as a non action. It does not have to be an action which is effectively part of movement in your turn - that is just the normal way.
Winter Sleet is odd because it requires a specific skill check and sets a specific DC. This is very weird. Normally it would be a Reflex save against your Spell DC. That would be typical.
However it is not, So RAW it is going to come down to whether that creature has an acrobatics skill or not. If it does it is likely to be an easy check. If it does not is going to be a very hard check as they aren't adding their level to it.
Over to each GM if they think that is broken and needs to be patched.
If we look at Tumble Through for comparison to Balance. It is also a movement action, but it specifically states: You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy. Attempt an Acrobatics check against the enemy’s Reflex DC as soon as you try to enter its space.
The Balance action does not have this specificity. There is no Balance free action, there is no Balance reaction that exist in this game. Winter Sleet isn't asking for a free Acrobatics to be rolled. Winter sleet is saying that if you don't use the move action Balance you fall. No you are reading in rules restrictions that are not there, to force an autofail on a technicality.
Balance is an action but it is also is part of movement.
WinterSleet compels the check. That is sufficient to say that the check exists (even though it is clearly not normal) and can be done.
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I'm just surprised that people are still thinking that PF2 is intended to have no-check I-win buttons like this. Maybe we are getting an influx of powergamers now that Starfinder1e is deprecated.
Farien wrote: I'm just surprised that people are still thinking that PF2 is intended to have no-check I-win buttons like this. Maybe we are getting an influx of powergamers now that Starfinder1e is deprecated. That's why I suggested it should be run as Grease, with a reflex save or acrobatics check. Which I think upset people because they want their "I win" button.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
If you intend to enter an area that requires balancing, you would use the Balance action. No different than if you wanted to get past an opponent, you would use the Tumble Through action (whether you started your turn adjacent to the target, or 20 feet away).
If you suddenly find yourself in an area where balancing becomes necessary, such as a spell's area effect, then on your next turn you should probably attempt to Balance instead of Stride.
Except for the odd corner case of an effect that forces Balance during movement, such as with a reaction, I'm not really seeing why this is so hard to figure out.
EDIT: I see now that it's probably the Requirement line that's tripping people up. This leads me to believe that either the Requirement is in error (and should not exist) or that you must stop any movement in the first square, then begin Balance with a new action.
In any case, I do not believe it to be the intent of the designers that the OP's combo would result in auto-prone. Just the movement.
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