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Wargamer's preview of the plane of metal just came out, and one spell in particular stood out to me, Field of Razors.
It's a three-action spell, which would often have the material component pre-remaster. It actually describes a component that is used, so almost certainly material component pre-remaster. The spell description says you grind it up in your hands, plural. There's no tag that indicates that a component is being used.
Let's say I'm a Magus who wants to take metal spells. Can I go two-handed (because the rules don't require hands free to cast spells), am I restricted to having a hand free (because it's got a material component that is no longer conveniently tagged), or do I need to go full unarmed (because the description says I grind the metal between my hands)? Or is the spell just missing one of its tags?
This might be answered in the remastered rules, but I'd just like to have it cued up for clarification consideration if not. It's not a big deal to have a few spells ambiguous in the four to five months of transition, but it'd be a bummer to not have a clear answer long term.
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IIRC they got rid of some traits that only existed to point to other traits. Material Components were really just pointing to Manipulate, which Field of Razors has, that requires a free hand and provokes more reactions.
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IIRC they got rid of some traits that only existed to point to other traits. Material Components were really just pointing to Manipulate, which Field of Razors has, that requires a free hand and provokes more reactions.
Before, we had a distinction between Somatic (manipulate while holding something) and Material (manipulate requiring a free hand). I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Manipulate trait for casting isn't going to universally require an open hand, since that would shut down most of the Magus class, Champion focus spells, and Warpriest.
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A bunch of classes currently also just have replace material with somatic to get around that like the magus or the sorcerer so straight making manipulate now require an open hand would be real weird
IIRC they got rid of some traits that only existed to point to other traits. Material Components were really just pointing to Manipulate, which Field of Razors has, that requires a free hand and provokes more reactions.Before, we had a distinction between Somatic (manipulate while holding something) and Material (manipulate requiring a free hand). I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Manipulate trait for casting isn't going to universally require an open hand, since that would shut down most of the Magus class, Champion focus spells, and Warpriest.
Wow, morning brain fog is real.
Yeah, I would expect this version of Manipulate to essentially replace Somatic, especially since *every* spell on that page had the Manipulate trait. So, very unlikely they all require a free hand for Material (or whatever takes its place)
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Exactly the type of spells where a clear distinction between flavor and rules text would be very much appreciated as the line of flavor text prevents you from having any item at hand.
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And or, a good example of what is needed for guidelines about writing spells. Why is it ok to have any spell description that paints a picture of spell casting requiring 2 free hands? That is not the magic system of this game. It would be like having a spell description that said you channel the force to shoot lightning out of your hands.
Now, maybe the spell is supposed to require two hands and there is some new remastered text that is going to spell that out, but if so, I’d hope this means spells that require open hands are worth not carrying things in your hands to cast and that description is very deliberate. Otherwise, it feels like grounds for immediate errata.
In a system that pays as much attention to small details as PF2 does, I think a spell system that included hand usage could have worked out well, but it seems like the playtest decided pretty intentionally not to go that direction.
I feel for the whole piazo development and design team right now. Writing material while the whole rule set is changing around you is not easy and will inevitably lead to miscommunication and mistakes. But you also can't just stop material that was already mostly through the drafting process. I am sure that issues that really cause problems will be addressed in Errata once the dust settles and it is clear what issues are really causing problems. It just seems like if the goal is to make all the rule books work with standard language, then those books really should avoid including overly descriptive text that doesn't actually work with the game system.
Exactly the type of spells where a clear distinction between flavor and rules text would be very much appreciated as the line of flavor text prevents you from having any item at hand.
Yeah. They've already covered that it's impractical for them to do that, though. I'm just hoping we'll have guidance on this particular issue, since it occasionally crops up in spells and is a little easier to address than a broader distinction of flavor text and things with direct rules implication.
Pretty hard to speculate until we get the book to know how the components work. Actually, do we know if Rage of the Elements will define these traits for us? Seems like it could go either way for a glossary. Looking at Secrets of Magic, some traits were defined again, some just referenced a CRB page number, and others weren't mentioned at all.
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Exactly the type of spells where a clear distinction between flavor and rules text would be very much appreciated as the line of flavor text prevents you from having any item at hand.
Paizo doesn't seem super willing to do this, but at the very least I wish they'd be... better at editing their flavor text? It doesn't feel like it's held to the same scrutiny as rules text, even though it's positioned alongside rules text in a way that's indistinguishable from rules text without context.
And sometimes it leads to text that outright contradicts other written pieces (like how bastard swords spent several years being 'good at piercing' despite only doing slashing damage, though that did eventually get fixed).
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Blech, another couple of examples where the description includes mechanical language but is vague if it actually has any meaning.
Another problem I noticed, or rather, am predicting based on the previews I've seen: The Kinetecists who have Metal powers seem to largely all require a Metal Material component but there IS no Material Trait present on the powers we have seen so far. If that Trait is just going away and we are to rely on the descriptions of said Powers/Spells that's fine and all but... are such Kinetecists given an Aura that just magically summons a ton of free/0 Bulk Metal that flies around them at all times? If so, there IS an affordable workaround for this but is PURE unadulterated cheese in that the cheapest way to do this is with Copper Coins. Additionally, I'm not seeing anything here that suggests that the Metal that is being used continues to exist in ANY form after the Power is used which suggests that the component is CONSUMED in the process, that's a pretty hefty tax on a PC, buying and carrying around a bunch of Metal equipment that is strapped to your person (NOT stowed in a manner that reduces the Bulk like in a Backpack or Bag of Holding, remember, you'd need to access it as part of the Spell/Power) and effectively destroying each of them one at a time every time you use a Power.
I'm hoping I'm just wringing hands over nothing and they provide free Metal as part of an Aura that is given to such Kinetecists that can be used for all of these things and they need not provide it on their own, otherwise we are absolutely going to be seeing dozens of Copper Pieces strapped to the clothing of these Kinetecists as a measure to make it affordable.
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Blech, another couple of examples where the description includes mechanical language but is vague if it actually has any meaning.
Another problem I noticed, or rather, am predicting based on the previews I've seen: The Kinetecists who have Metal powers seem to largely all require a Metal Material component but there IS no Material Trait present on the powers we have seen so far. If that Trait is just going away and we are to rely on the descriptions of said Powers/Spells that's fine and all but... are such Kinetecists given an Aura that just magically summons a ton of free/0 Bulk Metal that flies around them at all times? If so, there IS an affordable workaround for this but is PURE unadulterated cheese in that the cheapest way to do this is with Copper Coins. Additionally, I'm not seeing anything here that suggests that the Metal that is being used continues to exist in ANY form after the Power is used which suggests that the component is CONSUMED in the process, that's a pretty hefty tax on a PC, buying and carrying around a bunch of Metal equipment that is strapped to your person (NOT stowed in a manner that reduces the Bulk like in a Backpack or Bag of Holding, remember, you'd need to access it as part of the Spell/Power) and effectively destroying each of them one at a time every time you use a Power.
I'm hoping I'm just wringing hands over nothing and they provide free Metal as part of an Aura that is given to such Kinetecists that can be used for all of these things and they need not provide it on their own, otherwise we are absolutely going to be seeing dozens of Copper Pieces strapped to the clothing of these Kinetecists as a measure to make it affordable.
I think you've conflated two things- we've only seen metal spells rather than anything for a metal Kineticist. The cantrip that uses metal returns the metal after casting the spell, and that's the only thing likely to be spammed all day, while the others seem to use a trivial amount. I wouldn't worry too much about Kineticist on that front.
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Okay good call but does it reform the Metal into the original shape or are you provided with three Metal needles that are either ineligible for use with the spell or simply reusable?
"The metal returns to you". I don't know about reforming, but nothing about the wording prevents reuse.
Well, it doesn't really sound like people are too concerned about the hands question, so I'll take that as a sign and not worry about it. If I play an illusionist, I ask the GM for a few clarifications, and I can live with metal casters being the same way.