Looking for Feed Back on the following and have more details in the attached file.
Moved Combat to be based on the clock where you follow initiative but instead of acting once for all six seconds you will act once per second.
Movement and Attacks will be on the second.
Skills will replace special attack maneuvers like tripping and defensive maneuvers like parrying.
Combat:
The Combat in most games are based on a concept of a round. Most of the rounds are 6 seconds and you take your turn using all of those seconds.
This opens to change that that to what do you do for your turn on this second and work around the table 6 times in as close to real time as you can get.
Why:
Makes players work more as a group
Makes your current position more important
-Removes the issue of Direct Attacks from those that move after one player but the others have not had a turn yet.
-Allows the blocking of opponents moves, or yours
-Allows you to predict when you will reach an enemy and the number of attack you will be able to preform.
-You must actually leave concealment to attack, and be counter attacked before returning to cover
-Spells can be caste in real time, with movement before they block the spells path
If you still want a 3 action economy for attacks, use a 3,2,1 system. The first attack happens in the first 3 seconds, the second attack happens in the next 2 seconds (4-5), and the last attack happens in the last second (6).
Movement:
This I use a speed Attribute for because everyone moves at a different pace, so it seemed better to add to the Characters Scores they roll. If you still want to use the preset 20 ft, 30 ft base system you can, just divide the base speed you have by 6. If you use the speed Attribute that is the maximum (Running) speed you can move in a second.
Skills:
Moved everything I could to be skill based for bonuses. You can do anything without needing the skill (Untrained) but receive no bonuses 1d20 vs DC.
Taking the Cascade of the Skill will allow Attribute bonuses, but no others
Taking the Skill will allow Attribute bonuses and Skill Bonuses (Ranks or Tiers) being applied.
Skill bonuses are pluses to the rolls +1 per Rank to be used to over come the DC, added to a strike roll, etc.
LINK:
The File
This is interesting. I've wondered about creating a system like this, myself.
DungeonmasterCal wrote: This is interesting. I've wondered about creating a system like this, myself. Thanks for the reply
If you don't mind digging through the collected notes there is more information and some of it in separate locations being n some need of combining
3 files in a Zip
GotAFarmYet? wrote: DungeonmasterCal wrote: This is interesting. I've wondered about creating a system like this, myself. Thanks for the reply
If you don't mind digging through the collected notes there is more information and some of it in separate locations being n some need of combining
3 files in a Zip I'll be glad to, but it might be a few days before I can get to it.
NP, take what ever time you need. I am curious but understand a limited time available situations.
As per suggestion it is now changed to a pure second system with a cool down period to recover the negative effects. So the first paragraph now reads:
Combat is nothing more than doing actions in order of initiative every second in the six second round. The initiative is based on a d20 roll plus modifiers and determines in what order everyone can use their actions. The seconds are split into two phases, The first half is a Movement Phase, and the second half is an Action Phase. If the second ends and no one used an attack, an Action, or Moved then initiative can be re-rolled.
The movement phase is based on initiative and goes from the lowest roll to the highest in order. A creature with a higher Initiative roll can use their movement to counter or block a lower Initiative Creature at any time during the phase. Moving into someone’s combat area at any speed faster than a walk triggers an Attack of Opportunity (AoO). After movements are completed, and any actions from Movement are resolved you then enter the Attack Phase of the second.
The Action Phase is when attacks, which are Actions, are conducted from the highest initiative roll to the lowest. You can delay your attack, or action, to react to the action of another person. If that person doesn't do an Attack or Action, you also do not get yours. Each consecutive Action, or Attack, used draws -5 to the roll to the success of the Action. If the Act is successful there is no continuing penalty, so things like damage are rolled normally.
Recovery of the negative effect on the success roll is done by stopping your Actions. If you do no Actions for a second you recover your Basic Attack Bonus in points to that negative value, treat a 0 as a 1. At First Level if you attack once the next attack will have a -5 to its' success roll, but if you wait 5 seconds it will be reduced to a 0. Immediate and Swift Actions are recovered by NOT using an action AND moving for a full second. How skilled each of the characters are at combat is up to the player’s choices made is creating them.
You are basically on the clock when in combat, no matter what system you use to follow. This system asks what you are doing in this second, and rapidly moves around the table or down the list. The usual systems instead of asking what you are doing for a large block of time, that can lead into unwanted situations. It takes a bit to get used to, but it keeps the players much more coordinated and working as a group.
So updated t he file as we had finally gotten the group together again
It flows much more quickly now
The File
Here
GURPS uses 1 second combat turns and it is one of the few aspects of the game I don’t like.
Sure it is more realistic, but is that what you really want in a game?
What kept happening was the limitations with the current turn system was that monsters could attack past the front line. The other issue was players being in the way of their teammates. This would all happen from a Movement system with initiative, not allowing people to play the in between moments.
If you increase the resolution on time this would not happen. It was that poor representation of movement that would allow situations to happen that shouldn't. Moving it to a second system fixes that. The actual rolls of combat doesn't really change that much.
This is before we streamlined the system posted in the post above.
Its a bit long to read but it is an example that shows how a second based encounter allows a much more clear advantage to the current system you see in D&D, and Pathfinders as a few other TTRPGs'
You took on a request to patrol this area and kill any monsters you come across. The payment is based on monster type and per kill with proof. The secondary mission you also took was a rookie party was last seen heading here and have disappeared.
Slide 1
The Ranger notices the 8 Orcs are search the area ahead of him and slowly head to his right. They seem to be checking the bushes while following a path. They are being noisy and while searching they are not activitly checking their surroundings. To you it looks like they are searching for something. You can see an area where your group can get to quickly and queitly that they will pass close to.
Slide 2
Positioning yourselves you wait for them to come to you. Your Spirit Arts inform you that there are 2 people about a 100 yards farther to the right and it appears that Orcs are searching for them. From where you are you can see traces of their path to confim that they are at least on that trail. The good news is that they will be passing within your parties strike range and be at the closest point 30-40 feet from you in about a 1/4 of a minute.
The leader Decides to take them at their current spot to buy time for the Ranger to slowly work them down well the cleric and fighter do a controlled push towards them. He will Cast a Fire spell on the trailing targets. Casting it well staying concealed to hopefully also cause some confussion to them.
Slide 3 (Start of the Clock)
The Charge of the Heavy Armored Duo, well screaming to attract the Orcs Advance 5' (1/2 max Spd). All the Orcs look at them.
The Mage Starts to cast a Created spell releasing the energy needed for a second level spell, at a 3rd level caster.
The range steps to the left and using the cover of a tree fires at a trailing a Trailing Orc 6. Rolls a hit and 5 points of damage
Cleric Converts Standard Action into an Immediate action.
Slide 4
Your side has a advantage to initiative and theirs has a straight roll.
Order was:
Fighter
Cleric
Orc 2
Orc 5
Orc 1
Orc 4
Orc 3
Ranger
Mage
Orc 6
Movement Phase:
Orc 6 none
Mage None
Ranger None
Orc 3 Charges forward
Orc 4 None
Orc 1 Charges Forward
Orc 5 Charges Forward
Orc 2 follows 5
The Armored Duo continues to advance
Action Phase:
Fighter
Cleric
Orc 2
Orc 5
Orc 1
Orc 4
Orc 3
Ranger decided that the -5 to the attack roll is worth another shot and hits again with a roll of 6 damage
Mage Adds the Fire Trait to the energy at 3d6
Orc 6 Is standing there but dead.
Slide 5
Movement Phase:
Orc 6 Drops to his knees
Mage None
Ranger None
Orc 3 Charges forward
Orc 4 None watches Orc 6 fall to his knees
Orc 1 Charges Forward
Orc 5 Charges Forward
Orc 2 follows 5
The Armored Duo continues to advance, but the Cleric opens the distance between them.
Action Phase:
Fighter Finds that Orc 5 and 1 are in the threat range of his great Sword and attacks 5 rolls a hit and gets 9 points of damage cleaving through the Orc 5. The cleave continues to Orc 1 where he also gets a hit but a bad roll doing 4 points of damage
Cleric
Orc 2
Orc 5
Orc 1
Orc 4
Orc 3
Ranger uses this second to recover the negative modifier on this bow (-5+3 = -2)
Mage Doesn't need to Heighten the spell and adds selected target to it (will have 2 targets)
Slide 6
Movement Phase:
Orc 6 Drops completely to the ground, one of the arrows is pushed through to the other side
Mage None
Ranger None
Orc 3 Charges forward to fight the Cleric
Orc 4 None watches Orc 6 fall to ground dead
Orc 1 Charges Forward to attack the Fighter
Orc 5 falls towrds the ground in two halves
Orc 2 moves to the side to get around the dead Orc 5
The Armored Duo neither move and both use a AoO the Cleric against 3 and the Fighter against 2 The cleric hits for 2 points of Damage and the fighter hits with a 4 points of damage.
Action Phase:
Fighter buys a standard action to use as an attack rolls his strike at -5 to the roll and misses
Cleric buy a standard action to attack with but is at a -3 to the roll, had 2 seconds of recovery (1 per second) Swings and hits number 3 for a whooping 1 point of damage (3 Total)
Orc 2 All targets out of reach
Orc 5 continues to fall
Orc 1 Attacks fighter hits for 4 points
Orc 4 Thinks, maybe it is time to retreat
Orc 3 Attacks cleric and misses (Cleric Panics)
Ranger Shoots with a -2 on the shot at Orc 2 Hitting him for 6 points of Damage (is having a good day rolling) and kills him.
Mage Completes the Spell converting it into a Rune to be released
Slide 7
Movement Phase:
Mage None
Ranger runs forward as fast as he can to support the Fighter
Orc 3
Orc 4 Leaves
Orc 1
The Armored Duo None
Action Phase:
Fighter buys a standard action to use as an attack rolls his strike at -10 to the roll and misses
Cleric Holds to recover -7
Orc 1 is on recovery cycle
Orc 3 is on recovery cycle
Ranger Recovers -4
Mage Releases Spell against target 3 and 4 Takes the average damage instead of rolling as 9 points each finishes them.
Slide 8
Movement Phase:
None
Action Phase:
Fighter holds to recover -6
Cleric Holds to recover -6
Orc 1 is on recovery cycle
Ranger Recovers -1
Slide 9
Movement Phase:
Ranger Draws Short Sword
Action Phase:
Fighter holds to recover -6
Cleric Holds to recover -6
Orc 1 is on recovery cycle
Ranger recovers (0)
Slide 10
Movement Phase:
Cleric steps in at walking speed to fight orc 1
Range moves walking speed to step into combat
Action Phase:
Fighter holds to recover (-1)
Cleric Recovers (-5)
Orc attacks Fighter Hits and does 8 points of damage (12 total) Still there but not happy
Ranger buys a Standard action (0) and attacks, Hits for 1 point of damage (5 total)
Slide 11 we go straight to Action Phase as no one is moving
Fighter Buys Standard action (-1 to the roll) swings and gets a Critical Hit rolls a 12 +4 x3= 48 points with only 3 left means the Orc just did not make it
LINK
One other reason was the current system allows a Mage to step out fire a spell and step back into cover. While a Archer waiting for them to step out cannot fire an arrow at them.
Yup, according to the rules the mage can dance around for 4 seconds without worry and then dive back into cover.
Yes, I know what come next which is a bunch of people going well we use house rule blah, blah, blah to cover for it.
So why not just adjust the rules to move timing down and remove the issues?
It is still a house rule, but covers more than 8-9 adjustment rules you will have to add.
GotAFarmYet? wrote: One other reason was the current system allows a Mage to step out fire a spell and step back into cover. While a Archer waiting for them to step out cannot fire an arrow at them.
Yup, according to the rules the mage can dance around for 4 seconds without worry and then dive back into cover.
Yes, I know what come next which is a bunch of people going well we use house rule blah, blah, blah to cover for it.
So why not just adjust the rules to move timing down and remove the issues?
It is still a house rule, but covers more than 8-9 adjustment rules you will have to add.
Readied Actions is the actual rule to fire at someone who pops his head out to cast a spell. but the caster would need 2 move actions to step out and step back, so not legal. Otherwise the caster is casting from cover and has an AC bonus.
so yeah, covered by the rules with no house rule.
My big issue with this proposed system is that you have to go around the table 6 times as often to do the same amount of combat. Bleh...
TxSam88 wrote: GotAFarmYet? wrote: One other reason was the current system allows a Mage to step out fire a spell and step back into cover. While a Archer waiting for them to step out cannot fire an arrow at them.
Yup, according to the rules the mage can dance around for 4 seconds without worry and then dive back into cover.
Yes, I know what come next which is a bunch of people going well we use house rule blah, blah, blah to cover for it.
So why not just adjust the rules to move timing down and remove the issues?
It is still a house rule, but covers more than 8-9 adjustment rules you will have to add.
Readied Actions is the actual rule to fire at someone who pops his head out to cast a spell. but the caster would need 2 move actions to step out and step back, so not legal. Otherwise the caster is casting from cover and has an AC bonus.
so yeah, covered by the rules with no house rule.
My big issue with this proposed system is that you have to go around the table 6 times as often to do the same amount of combat. Bleh... Ah! good, a reply.
In the earlier rules there was no ready action, it was added because it became a house rule everyone is using. Go back far enough and you will find it did not exist.
So you stepping out firing off a spell and moving make as 3 separate actions, good so do I. In many games 3 actions are what you get.
Now explain how they cannot do that in a 6 second round. "Because it is in the rules" will not be a good answer. The rules don't cover everything or we would not need home brew rules. Can a fighter move attack and move?
What happens if the Mages target was the person with the readied action, or they got an arrow shot at them when they were just standing there?
order of play:
Player X I fire at the idiot standing there waiting to shoot at the mage, Its a Hit and he takes 10 damage.
Mage, I step out fire my spell at the same idiot.
Idiot, Oh, look I can take my ready shot event though I was last on initiative, and was shot with an arrow before the Mage left cover.
Doesn't really work.
Now lets look at the last line:
And the answer is not really, you still have the concept of the round in your head. We do less actions every time it becomes our turn, nothing else has changed. You are simply going around the table until combat ends in both cases. We found the number of time going round the table only increased by 17% and in some cases is less.
Also the slide show I posted as an example was before we streamlined the process some. I was lazy and copied that from a development forum we are also discussing this in. Looks more like this now.
How it works:
1. Beginning of the second. GM: “Ok. Show of hands Who is moving or doing a facing change?”
“We have these players and monsters 4 and 9 for me”. Let the list keeper mark them down.
2. Run the order from last to first from the rolled initiative, they then make their 5’ Move or Facing Change. When done “Ok, Action!”.
3. Start the Action Phase and run it from First to last in order of Initiative.
You can delay your turn until someone else with a lower initiative moves as a declaration. If the targeted doesn’t act, then neither will you. This does NOT change the order of initiative in the next second.
That’s it! The rest is to try to keep the pace as fast as possible.
Oh, and lastly I have been told told I come across as angry by the way i type. I try to keep it short and to the point without full explaining it.
I will apologize for that now. I take the information seriously as I am trying to make this a better way. Changes and why this did not work, or it being broken into parts and treated harsh doesn't bother me.
The more parts of it that get abused, is a test for what to look at to improve.
yes, a fighter can move attack move, with a feat, again it's already in the rules, whether you consider it a good answer or not is irrelevant to me. If it already exists in the game, I see little need to replace it. Especially with something more complicated
how can you "not do something in a 6 second round"? because an attack is more than just a single sword swing, it's a feint a parry an attack and a counter attack. A spell, takes time to gather energy, to say the incantation and to wave the hands, it's not a single poof and it's done.
17% increase? so a 40 minute combat, now takes even longer? I'll pass.
While your combat system may seem more realistic, it's certainly more complicated. one of the beauties of D&D (aside from being able to customize it) is that it was simple. the reason we play the 6 second round the way we do, is to keep it simple, and it's more representational of the sum of everything you did in those 1 second increments. Sure, some realism might get lost, but as mentioned, casting a spell from around the corner. you start the round and end the round mostly out of sight, you can cast your spell, yet you can be shot. there's no 3 actions about it, the net result of you stepping out, casting a spell and stepping back, is that you have cover, +2 to your AC. it doesn't matter when in the round you do this, or when in the round the archer goes, the archer can shoot you, without a readied action etc. same net effect - but a simpler system.
TxSam88 wrote: yes, a fighter can move attack move, with a feat, again it's already in the rules, whether you consider it a good answer or not is irrelevant to me. If it already exists in the game, I see little need to replace it. Especially with something more complicated That is funny,
Considering this is about home brew and replacing and changing the system is what it is about.
Is it more complicated?
Guess that is subjective at best, in description it can seem more complex as it is in a condensed form. When you look at the system in PF you will see a section on combat, feats, features, class abilities all these are complications. It is pretty much no more complicated than the current system, just different. Being different makes it unknown and thus is considered or has the illusion of being more complex than the familiar.
Irrelevant?
Well lets leave it as more of a difference of opinion, that leaves it open to discussion, and not a argument. Just because it is in the rules doesn't mean it will fit the setting, theme, and context the game is being run in. You can have a gunslinger in the rules, but in a game with no firearms it is irrelevant as a rule. There are things that exist in the game that are left overs from older versions, that don't fit n the current system. They are ignored or not used yet if I was in your game and could us it to my advantage, would it be allowed if it did not fit your context.
Yes, I knew a fighter could do that with a feat, the question is why does he need that feat. It is an action anyone can do in a fight, but accelerating to full speed would not be possible well doing it. Just because it is in the rules doesn't make it a good rule.
TxSam88 wrote: How can you "not do something in a 6 second round"? because an attack is more than just a single sword swing, it's a feint a parry an attack and a counter attack. A spell, takes time to gather energy, to say the incantation and to wave the hands, it's not a single poof and it's done. That is an assumption and a justification. I used the same argument in the past as an excuse to protect a familiar system. Truth is we don't know what they are doing. As far as it is known a water cooler could appear and they are talking bout about the latest gladiator battle. Also take a careful look at that system we say this is all happening in 6 seconds but in truth it is anything but that. This person does their 6 seconds attacking and moving. They kill a target and then moves to a position that blocks the archer. One the next turn this guy goes "Oh, enemy X is dead, so I will attack Y". The Archer now can pick another target or move to get an angle to attack his original target, with a penalty because of the allies move. The current system is a progression of 6 second blocks that we once finished just call it a single block. It was all in response to what was done by the person who had the 6 second block before you.
As for the spell you cast it, make it ready and then peek around the corner firing it off. The guy with the readied action if he is the target of the spell would actually get a choice, use that action and take the spell or avoid the spell. Why would a caster show themselves before completing the spell?
A readied action doesn't actually work if that person is the target. You know a person is waiting to get a shot off at you with a bow. You have an idea of where they are (assuming they did not move). You take out your crossbow and dive out from cover firing as you go. Sure you will take a penalty to hit, but you will actually shoot before the other person. That person ready or not has to adjust their aim for your moving and it take time to process that you popped out. Not to mention the bolt coming at you is a distraction. Does the rules handle any of this?
The rules in any game are simply guide lines, and as guides they are subject to change to allow for exceptions. This is why the seconds became important. It was not covered well using blocks of time with assumptions that don't always hold up. I am not saying this will work for you, as It does require a certain mind set to use. It also requires pacing of combat and at first it has to be forced until the players and you get use to it. You do have to get use to it because you are thinking in terms outside those that you are use to or familiar with.
As for the increase in time. It is usually when we are fighting smaller numbers and get more detailed in what we are doing that causes the increase. When the numbers we face are large it actually has the opposite and decreases the time. Also combat for use was usually done under 15 minutes so it going up to 20 with a much more wild results was fine for us. Again that was with our group what happens with anyone else is unknown as far as I know your time in combat could drop by half.
TxSam88 wrote: While your combat system may seem more realistic, it's certainly more complicated. one of the beauties of D&D (aside from being able to customize it) is that it was simple. the reason we play the 6 second round the way we do, is to keep it simple, and it's more representational of the sum of everything you did in those 1 second increments. Sure, some realism might get lost, but as mentioned, casting a spell from around the corner. you start the round and end the round mostly out of sight, you can cast your spell, yet you can be shot. there's no 3 actions about it, the net result of you stepping out, casting a spell and stepping back, is that you have cover, +2 to your AC. it doesn't matter when in the round you do this, or when in the round the archer goes, the archer can shoot you, without a readied action etc. same net effect - but a simpler system. As stated above it is impossible to say it is more complex just less familiar. More Realistic, maybe it is really just different, but requires a fast pace be kept. The pace is possible because of the limited things you can do, or things that are broken over time. Customizing it is the same you can keep, remove or change anything you want. As for which is the more flexible system, I don't know. Going by seconds allows for many things and can hamper others that a Block of time handles better. The second system does have a flaw and that requires honesty from the players and GM to follow through with their plan. If fighter X and Y were both attacking villain B. If X kills B and Y was planning on attack too, Y should continue the attack on B.
more complicated? most certainly. the GM has to call my name and get me to answer 6 times as often during a combat round. that alone makes it more complicated.
IMO, this seems like a solution for something that doesn't have a problem.
If you and your group enjoy it, then by all means continue to use it. I just don't think it's a worthwhile venture.
Dot (for later)
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In the past when I've experimented with similar mechanics (and played GURPS), I've felt that combat takes even longer than it already does. But I've also never really loved the d20 Initiative-and-turn system -- Second Edition of the 90s was Better! So I'm enthusiastic about really reading this Thread when I have the time.
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Still, the best, most fun & even realistic way to do combat is burn the g.d. Battlemat into annihilation, sell all your minis, and play in 'theater-of-the-mind.'
W E Ray wrote: Dot (for later)
.
In the past when I've experimented with similar mechanics (and played GURPS), I've felt that combat takes even longer than it already does. But I've also never really loved the d20 Initiative-and-turn system -- Second Edition of the 90s was Better! So I'm enthusiastic about really reading this Thread when I have the time.
.
Still, the best, most fun & even realistic way to do combat is burn the g.d. Battlemat into annihilation, sell all your minis, and play in 'theater-of-the-mind.'
Thank You very much look forward to the comments. Played the GURPs system as well. From Peter Jackson Games by far my favorite was Car Wars. We made Characters for it and turned it into a Gangster Street Fight or who would control the hood.
One friend came up with the best idea for that one his driver was a dwarf to save half the weight and space of a normal person.
D20 and follow the chart. Highest d20 sets the starting point and goes around the table. We normally had eight players so we would all sit and roll 2d8 to randomly play the monsters turns at those points, along with the GMs' position and just go clockwise around the table. Half the time we would let the players that came before the monsters slot roll for the monsters. We had the one guy who always rolled really well, no one wanted to sit to his left on those days.
I'm going to suggest you look at Champions/Heroes System and store link to v6. You can probably get 5th ed at most used bookstores. It is a very balanced system for what it covers (there are large areas of social game play that it does not cover nor does it handle money, skills, technology, or vehicles well).
PF1 is designed to be simple and generic, and sure - it gets complicated at times and a GM has to resolve some things. So you are going against the main design thrust of the game. The trend has been toward less realism focusing on a sense of game balance and ease of play.
I have the Champions game, second edition first printing.
Funny part is it was simple
Move first, then action. Everyone was it takes to long and I don't want to go around the table that often. Ok.
Next try Moving was part of the action you had 3 actions, and could spend it on a 1/3 move or an action. Everyone was its not complex enough I can do more than that. I want to be able to skills, feats, have special moves. Ok.
Third try
Removed the SPD Attribute, because I doubt everyone wanted to sub-divide their maps to 1 foot increments.
Made the second into 10 sub units. Each type of action took up from 1-10 of the phases. When what you wanted to do equaled 10 or would go above it your turn ended. Very few comments on this one.
Forth version placed all the PF stuff back in. Everyone this is too complicated, yet it is no more complicated than PF1 or AD&D (and its future versions), just the time scale changed. It was not to make it more realistic, but to over come a few issues when dealing with 6 second blocks of time.
The issue with 6 second blocks is that they are not simultaneous 6 second blocks like they should be. The next person always plays off of the last players block that effected what they were doing. So at the end of the Round you have not covered 6 seconds but more in the way of 18-30.
Same issue with spells very few did the work that was needed to properly make up new spells in balanced with the older ones. I suggested just use caster levels with a 1d6 per level or active effect. If the spell needed a 1d12 they it took two caster levels. You would not believe the grief I got from that suggestion.
Game Balance is a joke as each new spell and class was way ore powerful than a core class and mostly just the most power features of 2-3 classes put together, yeah that is balanced. PF 2 came close with the new start and way of doing things. Then they just got lazy and piled on the same over powered classes, spells and features. Yes, I know time and budgets rule the world. So, here I am working out something that still work with a d20 has the resolution to avoid the stacking of time. but using simultaneous time.
It was a simple 3 action system you could attack up to 3 times or move up to 3 with any combination between. You could tack on as much complexity or remove it. Left in the new spell approach because it opened spells up to being balanced. The movement was simple 1 equaled Walking and all 3 was running.
what you are experiencing in DnD/PF1 turns is the Game Conceit of single sequential turns. Sure the game says that one turn is a quantized unit of time (AD&D) but it isn't done that way in actual play. It is a conceit as it is done to organize players into sequential turns and lend a sense of flow to the game. Same with Intitative.
If you want to enforce quantized time, then have a Start, everyone goes and nothing resolves until the first guy is up again, that's the End and things like damage and death apply, then next turn starts with first guy going again.
This has been known for 30+ years...
Decreasing the time period will have big impacts as you drive the model towards instability by oversampling and exposing the unrealistic assumptions inherent in statistical averaging (AD&D) or the granularity has become too fine and exposes the unrealistic rules (PF1) breaking acceptability/believeability. Remember it is just a model to meet a somewhat acceptable common experience. It is not physically accurate nor precise.
Azothath wrote: what you are experiencing in DnD/PF1 turns is the Game Conceit of single sequential turns. Sure the game says that one turn is a quantized unit of time (AD&D) but it isn't done that way in actual play. It is a conceit as it is done to organize players into sequential turns and lend a sense of flow to the game. Same with Intitative.
This has been known for 30+ years...
Thanks for a honest reply.
Truthfully I doubt anyone really gave it much thought. If it had not been for players being in the way of others attacks, I would not have noticed it. It wasn't something that happened to often as people would just sit at the table and go:
"I will move to here to attack him next turn"
"Don't do that! it will block my shot and leave a path for the monsters to attack the Mage"
"Yeah, the monsters do move next"
We tried to limit table talk, as a fist attempt. Doesn't really work as players interests will wane during combat. It did force them to get more creative to avoid combat so not all bad.
Azothath wrote: If you want to enforce quantized time, then have a Start, everyone goes and nothing resolves until the first guy is up again, that's the End and things like damage and death apply, then next turn starts with first guy going again. Tried that to it basically became a write it down and reveal your actions. The question came up are we playing a RPG or Clue?
I started as a player saying during combat " Vandrik killed Zombie number three in the crypt with his great hammer." The GM was not pleased. So that did not last long as we did not like having to write it down felt to much like writing a journal.
Azothath wrote: Decreasing the time period will have big impacts as you drive the model towards instability by oversampling and exposing the unrealistic assumptions inherent in statistical averaging (AD&D) or the granularity has become too fine and exposes the unrealistic rules (PF1) breaking acceptability/believeability. Remember it is just a model to meet a somewhat acceptable common experience. It is not physically accurate nor precise. I would not call moving it down to the second oversampling. The situation is not unstable by any means but it does force a change in pace and thinking. It does changes things by forcing more times around the table to do certain things, spells for instance. You tend to play it with more strategic planing on where you will be in several of your turns rather than in this big block of things.
So why move it to a second your last line is the reason: "Remember, it is just a model to meet a somewhat acceptable common experience". We also went with actions per second to cover the cost to move and allow for faster combat. How you spent your actions was up to you; 3 attacks, a move attack and move, etc.
Did it cause issues. YES!
1 . Movement how to simplify it. The first answer was add a Speed Attribute. This actually fixed all issues, but created one as well. Maps were scaled to 5' to a grid. Not an issue in todays day and age where programs to edit the maps exist.
2. Was Spell casting, how long should it take to cast a spell?
So the second model was used with a few parameters:
30' movement allowed for a 5/10/15 per second. You hustled a x2 and ran at x3, those were the rules from the book so it worked out.
to keep it simple the weight you carried would slow the movement, based on carrying capacity (Light/Medium/Heavy).
if in light or less 15', 5 feet per action spent as a move.
if in medium 10', it would take 3 moves to the full 10' and 2 to move the 5'. You are basically over coming your own inertia
If in the Heavy 5', it takes all 3 actions to move 5'. You are basically over coming your own inertia
Issue was spells, we tried a 3 seconds, 2 seconds, 1 seconds breaking down a round.
1 action was the equal to 3 seconds in the old system.
2 actions was the equal to 5 seconds in the old system.
3 actions was equal to 6 seconds, 1 round, or melee round, in the old system.
works ok, in a rotations around the table the melee group would kill everything close, and the Mages would attack the far because everything was dead that was up close.Sucked to be a mage in close combat but that did not really change. The next issue was the melee crew killing every thing, so a -5 for every consecutive second you fight was applied. You recovered the penalty at your BAB table number per second of rest. Most of the melee crew would hen start to cycle their attacks to every other second or every two seconds to keep their strike numbers higher. The only thing the melee crew did not like about this was when the Wiz was being a pain they had troubles letting the monsters through to attack him.
Eventually the idea of a Quick Cast Spell came into play. You got your INT modifier as the number of spell slot you could set to quick cast, I preferred total spell levels but was out voted (I was the Wizard).
As usual to make improvements we finally ended with the current system which is basically becoming its own game.
So still trying to work it all out.
So here we go again...
Combat, while it still uses a second as a time measurement, it is indirectly used. If you change the time scale the only thing that changes is the total distance you will move.
Expertise are still skills, just ones set to be used directly in combat. For now the things like grappling and throwing still need to be to be added. Those will fall under styles and be explained later in more detail.
Physical Strain added for melee fighters to slowly weaken their strike rolls
Mental Strain for casters, the more spells and larger spells used will effect the DC of the next spell. Mental wounds from casting Large spells add to effect the DC of casting until resting for a night removes them.
This one is still a D20 system.
The round is simply once around the table, and a turn is what you do in the round. Actions can be used before or after your turn for defense, but will effect you on your turn, coming or next.
The Roll With I am still unsure of?
Should it just be a better way to help avoid a blow
Reduce the damage of the blow
Do both
Also included the larger file full of reference notes and definitions to make it to the smaller scale and easier to implement
The two files:
Reference File
Combat how it works
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules
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