Ever since my party has hit level 14 (they're currently 15), it seems battles against spell-caster enemies haven't been challenging them, which is a problem for me since this is a caster-centric campaign they're going through. How do I handle spell-casting enemies so that they are an appropriate level of challenge rather than being uniformly a speed-bump?
If any details about past encounters are needed feel free to ask, but I've got to be somewhere right now so I'm sorry if this question is too vague.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You could start out combat with the enemy spellcasters already buffed. Spells like L4 invisibiilty, fly, or haste are hard to overcome unless your party is liberal with dispel magic.
Offensively, spells like L6 roaring applause, crushing despair, L7 paralyze, prismatic spray and even L3 fear will debuff the entire party. Use cone of cold, chain lightning and the like to inflict mass damage.
You can also give your casters PC feats like Quicken Spell, Mobility and Effortless Concentration.
I generally prefer to confront my PCs with mixed groups of foes that work well together - just like the PCs themselves!
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The NPC design guidelines give NPC casters very high spell DCs and spell attacks. Far more than PC casters of the same level. So when they use their top-shelf spells, those hit really hard. Also, they'll often be high enough level that their incapacitation spells can really hit the PCs hard.
However, their big weakness is action economy. Casting spells takes a lot of actions and can't be done safely with the PCs trying to threaten you with AoOs.
Tactically, NPC casters should look into getting some mooks to function as meat shields. The mooks don't need to hit super hard, but they need to be big bags of HP that can keep the players busy. The caster will be the one doing the hard hitting.
Another thing is battlefield control. A well-placed wall of force can keep some PCs out of the fight, or trap some squishy PCs with some mooks, or force the PCs to spend first a bunch of actions bringing down the wall.
Flying, standing on a high balcony etc, also help to prevent melee PCs from quickly closing in on you. They'll manage eventually, because most smart players pick up some fly spells or something. But it keeps them busy for another round and that gives you more time to hit them.
Any kind of preparation (pre-buffing, moving to a better spot, setting traps, hostages etc.) helps. Casters are at their weakest when you surprise them and back them into a corner. So that shouldn't come for free to the players. Surprising the wizard can be the reward for a good plan from the players, it shouldn't happen by accident.
One way of being prepared is warning systems. Some traps whose main purpose is to make noise and alert the caster that PCs are on their way. It could just be an alarm bell even. A silent alarm is even better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm running Rise of the Runelords for PF2.
When they got to Runeforge in book 5, my party was very powerful, so I knew I had to make fun challenges that were winnable, but deadly.
When they got to the Ravenous Crypts with the lich necromancer, I borrowed a bit from D&D 4E (though I never actually played it). I gave him several skeletal minions. They hit like level 14, but they had the defense of level 6. They died in around 2 hits. They hit like trucks. And when they died, they exploded bones in a 15 foot radius.
My party said it was one of the most fun fights they'd had.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Build the casters like monsters rather than PCs; the difference in how power is budgeted makes all the difference. An NPC gets less usage out of the breadth, variety, or day-long endurance PCs have so it can be hard to build a level-appropriate threat w/ the PC system. This gets amplified if the NPC lacks the teammates for teamwork or the magic gear to get one's numbers into range. With an NPC, bake those numbers right into the stats, both as if they had gear and had an ally doing Bon Mot/Demoralize, which yes, leads to higher Spell DCs, etc.
Use the same spell list, grab a few at-level class feats that should be useful in their brief encounter, but default to the monster charts for their final stats.
One of the notable traits of high level monsters is they often have efficient action economy, i.e. Improved Grab instead of Grab. So perma-Haste the NPC, maybe add Mobility if it needs to fly vs. PCs w/ AoOs, poach whatever other at-level abilities you think make for a balanced encounter. In many ways this is easier than using the PC-chassis, as the numbers are laid out on charts for you. As mentioned above, pre-buffing spells can achieve much of the same effect, but I'd only use that when it makes sense in the story and the party can't merely wait out until the durations expire. I'd rather spend some of their power budget on directly having the intended abilities, i.e. give them a Fly speed rather than always them conveniently have Fly pre-cast.
Then keep in mind that this late in the campaign, especially as you say with a known type of recurring enemy, the players have likely dedicated a lot of their own power budgets to shutting down spellcasters. Doh! Kudos to them, they're playing right IMO. That means you have to diversify the obstacles. A meaty thug henchman would be the opposite, perhaps an ooze which can Grab PCs, one which is immune to much of what the caster's unleashing (or not if you want to Split it). Or perhaps a room of Hazards & Traps that the caster can navigate, but which the party has to overcome.
And diversify spells. At those levels, the "turn Save Success into a Crit. Success" abilities like Evasion will neutralize a lot of spell effects, but the PCs can't cover all types of saving throws.
One trick I used in a published high-level adventure was to add some peons spread out far and obvious one round before the actual enemy party engaged. The players recognized the peons from before so freely dispersed to handle them, leading to a massive tactical error when the real threat surfaced, even though the diversion only represented one round of movement away.
And of course illusions. Great resource for casters, and the can prematurely trigger the PCs into battle mode so they expend their best buffs & blasts in a minor battle.
Single caster fighter with no assistance unless built like a monster or a very favorable battlefield is going to die quickly.
At level 14 almost everything dies quickly unless you plan for it. Players very powerful at that level.
I'd plan accordingly and increase the numbers either number of enemies or combat numbers like hit points or AC until you get the feel you want.
I generally put more enemies with main enemies whether caster or martial as that is usually more challenging and fun than having all five of your characters teeing off on the main boss alone in some room. That usually ends up being a very anticlimactic fight at that level.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ever since my party has hit level 14 (they're currently 15), it seems battles against spell-caster enemies haven't been challenging them, which is a problem for me since this is a caster-centric campaign they're going through. How do I handle spell-casting enemies so that they are an appropriate level of challenge rather than being uniformly a speed-bump?
If any details about past encounters are needed feel free to ask, but I've got to be somewhere right now so I'm sorry if this question is too vague.
At level 15, it's pretty easy to obliterate your PCs with casters. So I discourage you to use these builds too lightly.
The simplest and easiest way to TPK a party at level 15 is to use this monster:
Level 11 creature based on a Sorcerer with Quicken Spell, Dangerous Sorcery, Chain Lightning and Fireball. Chain Lightning + Quicken Fireball 4 does 8d12 + 6 + 8d6 + 4 = 90 damage. As this is a level -4 creature, you can put up to 12 of them in a Severe encounter for a mere 980 AoE damage with basic Reflex save at round 1. Your party will never see the second round.
Don't put more than a couple of them in a single encounter ;)
Another nasty and simple spellcaster:
Level 11 creature based on a Sorcerer with Dangerous Sorcery and Magic Missile. 3 one-action Magic Missile do: (3d6 + 5) * 3 = 46.5. If you decide to put 12 of them in an encounter you get up to 558 unavoidable damage per round. This is way weaker than the previous beast, but still extremely nasty and far enough to shred a party to pieces. You should once again use only a handful of them in a single fight to support a higher level creature.
If you want some fun, you have this evil cleric:
Level 11 creature based on an Evil Cleric with Harming Hands and negative healing (like a Dhampir). 3-action Harm does 6d10 (33) damage. Once again, if you use 12 such monsters you deal 396 damage. But, what's funny, is that they also heal for 396 damage, which is twice the amount of hit points of a level 11 creature. This is much more avoidable (unless the combat happen in tight spaces) but can be really problematic as a level 11 Cleric can cast easily half a dozen high level Harms per day.
Once again, it's better to use only a handful of them to support a strong undead. So if someone in your party decides to mess up with them they will soon realize that they are no snack for Barbarians.
Another funny fight would happen with these creatures:
Level 13 creature. You cast Spell Immunity 7 (Wall of Fire), Contingency (Haste) and then cast a level 6 Wall of Fire per round. The damage is low (6d6 = 21) but unavoidable if PCs have to move through the walls. And of course you can put a bunch of such spellcasters and make a hell out of the room.
As usual, don't put 6 of them in a single fight, it's better to have them support a high level fire-immune creature like a devil.
Another simple build to consider:
Level 11 creature based on a Cleric with Healing Hands and Reach Spell. A level 6 Heal restores (1d10+8) * 6 = 81 hps per round. You just have to put a few of them around a big creature and your PCs will have to deal with the Clerics before facing the creature. Bonus: They can heal themselves so your PCs have to be well coordinated to kill them before they get back to full.
With these casters, you should be able to change the way your party looks at casters. They are excellent as support, but you can use them also as main creatures. At level 15+, you can make any low level caster a nightmare to face.
Build thecasters[b]enemy[b] like monsters rather than PCs; the difference in how power is budgeted makes all the difference.
This is an important thing if the OP isn't already doing it. Every single enemy the party fights should be made using the rules for building NPCs, not PCs. If the OP is building enemies using PC rules they are doing it incorrectly. Well...not exactly incorrectly but PCs are supposed to have lower numbers compared to NPCs in exchange for more complex options and versatility that allow them to overcome enemy numerical superiority. This is done intentionally to make NPCs easier to run. PCs generally need to work together to debuff the enemy, buff themselves, and then they can take the enemy with ease (not really ease, but more easily). NPCs are designed to have big numbers to smash up against the players without needing to be tactical.
Secondly, a caster should never really be alone. A caster boss should have some minions. Really, no enemy should ever be alone. Personally I think the number of enemies should always be at least the number of PCs. Even if that means that you have one boss and a few very weak minions, but it's still better encounter design IMO.
But to really help you, we need details on recent encounters to understand what you and the players are doing to see where the failures are happening.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A lot of caster creatures are built as a mix of PC/NPC. They are often built taking a character class as a baseline for their spells, Focus Spells and their abilities (Font on Clerics, some recognizable feats for the others) and then they put NPC numbers on them.
For example, the Lich has Drain Bonded Item, Counterspell and Steady Spellcasting from the Wizard class, some other famous undead caster has Quicken Spellcasting, Bloodline Focus Spells and Blood Magic from the Sorcerer class.
So, no, they are not really built like NPCs, not entirely.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A lot of caster creatures are built as a mix of PC/NPC. They are often built taking a character class as a baseline for their spells, Focus Spells and their abilities (Font on Clerics, some recognizable feats for the others) and then they put NPC numbers on them.
To me, that's the important part of being an NPC. Yes, you need to look at class spell progression to have some basis as to the number of spells they should have. And probably pull some inspiration for specific abilities, such as metamagic. But the numbers are really what make NPCs function like NPCs.
Without knowing your party composition it is hard to speak in specifics, but generally: location, location, location. Difficult terrain probably isn't slowing down a party of this level, but distance can, as can starting at a higher elevation. (They should have flight, but you basically fly upwards at half speed.) A 18th level caster can unleash Horrid Wilting from 500 feet up. Your melee characters with AoO are much less threatening if they can't get close.
Thanks for all the advice. At the pace the party's going I'll get the chance to try it out next session.