So for people who haven't heard the news Paizo has determined that it isn't feasible to salvage the Drow from the OGL mess. There's an ongoing argument about if they've been retconned from existence, but either way Paizo is never publishing anything about them again.
Check out The-Magic-Sword's writeup for a summary of the whole Darklands Panel.
Since they're gone for legal reasons and not story ones that means they can't be used in Starfinder either. Which is messy because Apostae and it's mysteries is a pretty big Pact Worlds subplot.
An entire planet in the Pact Worlds system just not being mentioned ever again probably isn't a viable solution.
How do we think the Starfinder team is going to sqare the cirlce? Are the Drow going to dig too greedily and deeply and get wiped out the same way the Ilee were?
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I was actually more worried about these knock-on effects than I was for Pathfinder, especially since my Dawn of Flame PC IS a drow...
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Retcon the Drow populace of Apostae as some other sub-type of elf, I would imagine? It's not great, but it means that they wouldn't be shutting the door on Apostae just yet. Though it does suck having Drow removed for legal reasons rather than story ones. Though if you do want to keep using Drow for your home games, no one can stop you.
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Well, the ambiguity has been settled. Drow are gone, gone.
From this thread: Post 336
We are really trying hard to keep the remastering/ORC version of Golarion the same, but in the case of drow, we've decided to retcon them. Feel free of course to use drow from our previously published 1st and 2nd edition products, but going forward, they won't be in Pathfinder.
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So THIS is what caused the gap!
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By Jove, he has it!
(I jest because the ramifications of what this means for Apostae are still settling in my chest.)
Contributor
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Oh my gosh. This feels apocalyptic. I didn't like the drow on golarian but the drow on Apostae were great. Heck I wrote even wrote up the Eclipse Academy for them in my Schools of Magic article... I am feeling very unsettled by the ramifications of this change.
We should have a starfinder multi table special there as one last hurrah! That'll get rid of it...
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IANAL, but my understanding on what they've said is that the legal reasons involved are that essentially they cannot have Drow in any ORC game of theirs (without expending so much work and changes to the drow that they'd be barely recongizable anyway).
As Starfinder is still staying an OGL license game, they could still use drow in it.
Now, the fact Starfinder and Pathfinder share large chunks of setting makes this complicated if they are setting-wise not existing in one anymore. And the whole reason ORC exists is that any OGL-based games right now are forever in a precarious position. But unless I missed an announcement they have not yet said they are being forced to remove drow from Starfinder (though any future Remaster or edition-change would be under ORC and thus would necessitate their removal at that point.
All that said, the PF and SF link makes the narrative continuation of drow in SF while not PF more questionable. They may choose to remove/sunset Drow from Apostae in the near future too, but its not as imminent a legal neccessity.
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Shadow Elves, from the plane of shadows.
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The Svartalfar exist, and they basically already look exactly like Drow and fill a lot of their niches. I wonder if Paizo would consider having them take up the main dark elf mantle.
Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)
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Stepping in here just to explain where the Starfinder team is at on this. Note, this applies to STARFINDER and not for anything related to the Pathfinder stuff.
Right now, and in our upcoming products, drow are drow and remain so as long as our products are under the OGL. Don't worry about some radical change suddenly appearing in Starfinder Enhanced or Mechageddon!.
Going forward, the team has had some talks about drow and how we might handle them in a post-ORC published Starfinder world. I want to share some insight into this, in hopes of not adding fuel to the fire, but instead let you know how seriously we're taking this, and because I firmly believe we should be open about as much as we can be.
The biggest element that we've agreed on for this whole situation, is that we don't just be "disappearing" drow and having Apostae suddenly become a barren world or have it entirely populated by xulgaths. What we are leaning towards is likely a change to Apostae's primary residents that keeps the spirit of what they currently are in-line with what we have, but make them less directly pulled from OGL-isms. This means a redesign that would remove their existing name, and a lot of the old associations with certain elements that, quite honestly, we've barely had time to delve into with Starfinder beyond stuff like the write-ups in Pact Worlds and some appearances by drow in APs.
A good example of this, would be that instead of households, we might just shift Apostae's residents to being corporation-based, which works WAY better anyways for telling futuristic dystopian stories. Similarly, we'd already been planning on removing some of the matriarchal elements from this, and I suspect we'll just clear those out going forward.
TLDR: Yes, the team is actively aware of the likely need to change. We have plans and discussions have already happened. We're not at a point to lock anything in place, and really don't need to, because we have at least a year of OGL-content that we're still releasing for Starfinder. Also, yes, change is scary... but we've got really creative people coming up with really creative solutions to some of these issues. And again, we're not going to suddenly make Apostae a barren world or just remove the core concepts (Dystopian sci-fantasy stories about oppressive scheming corporate overlords all above a mysterious megadungeon).
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Stepping in here just to explain where the Starfinder team is at on this. Note, this applies to STARFINDER and not for anything related to the Pathfinder stuff.
Right now, and in our upcoming products, drow are drow and remain so as long as our products are under the OGL. Don't worry about some radical change suddenly appearing in Starfinder Enhanced or Mechageddon!.
Going forward, the team has had some talks about drow and how we might handle them in a post-ORC published Starfinder world. I want to share some insight into this, in hopes of not adding fuel to the fire, but instead let you know how seriously we're taking this, and because I firmly believe we should be open about as much as we can be.
The biggest element that we've agreed on for this whole situation, is that we don't just be "disappearing" drow and having Apostae suddenly become a barren world or have it entirely populated by xulgaths. What we are leaning towards is likely a change to Apostae's primary residents that keeps the spirit of what they currently are in-line with what we have, but make them less directly pulled from OGL-isms. This means a redesign that would remove their existing name, and a lot of the old associations with certain elements that, quite honestly, we've barely had time to delve into with Starfinder beyond stuff like the write-ups in Pact Worlds and some appearances by drow in APs.
A good example of this, would be that instead of households, we might just shift Apostae's residents to being corporation-based, which works WAY better anyways for telling futuristic dystopian stories. Similarly, we'd already been planning on removing some of the matriarchal elements from this, and I suspect we'll just clear those out going forward.
TLDR: Yes, the team is actively aware of the likely need to change. We have plans and discussions have already happened. We're not at a point to lock anything in place, and really don't need to, because we have at least a year of OGL-content that we're still releasing for Starfinder....
Appreciate the honesty and straight-forwardness of this. I'm sad Drow are going extinct, but as someone pointed out, why not just replace them with the Svartalfar that you already have? Perhaps you could even introduce a split, with the Svartalfar staying focused on the arcane, while a splinter group could be the Dokkalfar, focusing on corporations, tech, etc.
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Right now, and in our upcoming products, drow are drow and remain so as long as our products are under the OGL. Don't worry about some radical change suddenly appearing in Starfinder Enhanced or Mechageddon!.
Awwwwwww but when is there a better time for a baby kaiju to eat a planet?
(Although this is a good thing. Apostae could make the poor baby horror from beyond comprehension sick to their stomach....)
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I absolutely love what Paizo has done with the Drow in Starfinder and all of the lore around Apostae. I love the way the concepts of Drow society and culture were adapted to a sci-fi cyberpunk setting. I have had two Drow PCs and they've been antagonists in several adventures I've ran.
I'm honestly not too broken up about them being retconned out of PF2 because they weren't featured much on Golarian but they fill a very unique spot in Starfinder and I would miss them greatly. The Drow have been my favorite fantasy race since the 90's and I adore being able to play and interact with them in a sci-fi setting.
I really hope they don't take the nuclear option for Starfinder and simply remove the Drow altogether. The Svartalfar would be suitable "replacements" and they've always reminded me of the dark elves from Marvel comics. Either way, Drow will always remain in any games I am running.
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Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)
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Stepping in again (gosh I love minefields!)
To specify what I was saying in my earlier post: the Starfinder team doesn't intend of "ghosting" drow in our game. Our intent is to replace them with something thematically appropriate, that matches the elements we think of as important to our existing leaders of Apostae, but without any of the OGL-baggage and removing more of the problematic elements that we've wanted to sand-off for awhile anyways.
We're not going to have the leadership of one of our Pact Worlds suddenly be replaced by another species who's had a different role in our game, such as Svartalfar. Instead, we're going to look at a substitution that should cause the least disruption to our setting and for games who want to shift.
For those folks who want to keep playing drow: absolutely, go ahead! That content exists and you can do whatever you'd like for your home games. However for products after a certain ORC-y point, we're likely going to be changing out drow to something else (though still in the elven backstabby megacorp space capitalist vein). This isn't a change we'd be doing willy-nilly, we're doing it for some very important legal and brand reasons.
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Replace them with Shakaltas who are forced to multiclass the originally printed Witchwarper with the Evolutionist. This is the best and least controversial solution and will ensure enthusiastic PC buy-in for those who want to play a character with that social vibe from Apostae.
I'd have guessed that a plot might have uncovered that what was believed to have been the Drow executive corporation, was just a hidden front for a Serpent-kind led plot to try to eventually own the whole pact worlds. When it becomes exposed, it changes the dynamic of what power was really held by whom, and while they do continue to exist, they no longer are the power brokers they used to be.
Perhaps with the reveal, this gives the serpent-kind the ability to leverage some of their other elven allies that had typically stayed more hidden in the past, or disguised themselves a Drow.
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If the Starfinder team wants to yank Drow out of Apostae for Starfinder 2nd edition, I completely understand and will assume that it's because that's just the cost of a 2nd ed., much like some things were tweaked when PF2e was first published. What I object to and why I've cancelled my PF2e sub is because things are being rugpulled out from under the community mid-edition. There is a massive difference between "we can't mention them/add them as character options because legal reasons but you can read a 1e book if you want to learn about them" and this "They never existed and any time you thought you were interacting with a Drow has been pulled from existence due to creator fiat" crap.
So I appreciate that you don't intend to do anything to upset the balance in 1e.
I'd have guessed that a plot might have uncovered that what was believed to have been the Drow executive corporation, was just a hidden front for a Serpent-kind led plot to try to eventually own the whole pact worlds. When it becomes exposed, it changes the dynamic of what power was really held by whom, and while they do continue to exist, they no longer are the power brokers they used to be.
Perhaps with the reveal, this gives the serpent-kind the ability to leverage some of their other elven allies that had typically stayed more hidden in the past, or disguised themselves a Drow.
Starfinder already has THREE hidden conspiracy races, between Greys, Reptoids, and those Myconids added in Threefold Conspiracy. I don't think we need a fourth.
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There must be 50 ways to leave your RPG.
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Senior Developer
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Wow, what a great answer Thurston—it's almost like there's a reason you're our Managing Creative Director! But he's right. We are already scheming and working on a replacement that we think the community will enjoy. We do pay attention, and we care what folks in the community think, but please keep in mind that these are all changes we have to make thanks to the works of some wetlands mages and their thrice-damned lawyers. Especially over on the Pathfinder lore side there's a lot of OGL baggage to work through and staff is doing their best. As someone who's been privy to a lot of the changes they're making, I believe in the hard work and cool creative decisions going into the Remaster and I've even had the privilege of being involved with some of that work! Please hang in there and try not to judge our work until the finished product drops. Now grab your towel and don't panic, and I'll see you in space. :)
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Adventurers track down vicious drow conspiracies, plumb the depths of Apostae, spark an orcish prisoners-with-jobs revolt, and finally get to the center of the web, the mastermind behind the great dark elvish conspiracy.
Jububnans. Puffed-up jububnans all the way down. The PCs are forced to flee before the infernal hopping catches up to them. From now on, they must always look over their shoulder. What they once thought were centuries-old callous drow corporatists ended up being three jububnans with one holoskin between them, and nothing left to lose.
Gnomes.
Just make em Gnomes.
Do you guys even need to change Drows? How about simply making them evil albino underground elves with a new name?
The name and the appearance are OGL, not the concept.
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1) The name yes.
2) They do not live underground in Starfinder, which is one of the reasons the SF team have more freedom than the PF team does mayhaps.
2) They do not live underground in Starfinder, which is one of the reasons the SF team have more freedom than the PF team does mayhaps.
Apostae... is a barren planet...
The few existing records of visits to the planetoid in the centuries prior to the Gap describe a barren, airless surface and a warren of atmosphere-filled caverns and tunnels riddling the rock through to its core.
From what I've read, the surface is inhospitable, but the underground is, hence why many drow clans established themselves there.
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Yes it’s a barren planet, which is why the Corpo Drow that everybody’s thinking of live in city’s where they sell/tax the air.
Remember. Future. Space. Syfy stuff.
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Removed some harassing and off topic stuff.
Yes it’s a barren planet, which is why the Corpo Drow that everybody’s thinking of live in city’s where they sell/tax the air.
Remember. Future. Space. Syfy stuff.
With a 7-day long day? for a species which is light sensitive? You sure they're living at the surface ^^; ? Sounds like a bad idea :P
I always pictured Apostae to be barren on the surface, but with a HUGE underground network of tunnels, cities and far less room to navvigate with vehicles.
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All the art and descriptions I've seen say it was more of a hybrid. Domed cities partially built into the surface.
Light sensitivity really wouldn't be an issue because... sci-fi. Polarized windows and clever architecture.
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Light sensitivity wouldn't be an issue because of the distance from the sun. It's just a particularly bright star.
Some quick checking on our solar system suggest that Jupiter gets about 5% as much solar intensity as Earth and Saturn 1% - those are the Bretheda/Liavara equivalents of the Pact Worlds, Apostae is way further than that. Lack of an atmosphere to soak up any of it helps make it brighter than it otherwise would be compared to Earth, but nothing to worry about.
In my campaign I've codified that daylight on Apostae never rises above normal light.
On the underground issue - yes, Starfinder has consistently depicted the drow as living on the surface. Trying to get inside Apostae is actually a driving concern.
One interesting note: Pre-Gap, Apostae's interior was apparently habitable, while Starfinder sure seems to depict the interior as airless. Or, the parts that the drow have managed to access, at least.
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Every drow is now replaced with a clone of Riddick. Oh! They're space australians and Apostae is an old elven penal colony. No wait, swap them out for cave orcs!
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They'd probably charge inhabitants or visitors for the air they breathe if they could find a profitable way to do so.
They literally do.
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BTW, Apostae used to be inhabited by a race called "ilee". Then again...
Apostae has been primarily in the hands of several powerful houses of drow—]purple-skinned elves who reject their kindred on Castrovel and worship powerful demons.
Castrovel is inhabited by Lashuntas, so why not spin them and add an evil variant into Apostae?
Lashuntas seem to be in tune with nature, so how about blighted evil versions of those?
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A good example of this, would be that instead of households, we might just shift Apostae's residents to being corporation-based, which works WAY better anyways for telling futuristic dystopian stories. Similarly, we'd already been planning on removing some of the matriarchal elements from this, and I suspect we'll just clear those out going forward.
Speaking for myself here, I really hope you don't do that. Part of what makes up Starfinder's DNA, I think, is that it is a science fiction world that emerged from a fantasy world. In that vein, seeing familiar tropes people are accustomed to seeing in fantasy transplanted into a science fiction setting – like feuding noble houses – is where Starfinder shines and feels more like its own thing. It's a world where fantasy conventions and traditions were violently confronted with an era of rapid change and evolution and starships, and adapted extremely clumsily to it all. The central banking system is run by the god of wealth, computers are powered by trapped elementals, hyperspace is an eldritch plane slowly consuming pieces of the material world, and on Apostae, nobody was told the rest of the galaxy was all done with all the "milords" and feudal politesse yesterday.
I think Apostae occupying this niche as a place where corporations have effectively overthrown the remnants of traditional government and form an effective plutocracy is very satisfying, as it fills a role no other Pact world has really hit yet, even Akiton (which is still, nominally at least, overseen by influential city-states). There's not terribly much distinction between that and the system of matriarchal noble houses currently in place, to be honest. At the same time, that setting as a concept has been pretty well explored across most science fiction universes. What made Starfinder's angle on that setting interesting was, to be a little crude – it made corporate dystopia sexy.
I don't just mean the place is run by pretty elves, although that doesn't hurt. Apostae is an important place in Starfinder because it's as fun to journey from as it is to journey to. The black leather and violet neon, the punk rock speeder gangs and heart pulsing music playing from tavern dives overlooking great chasms filled with nothing but pitch and more neon, the demonic rituals you can hear in hushed mantra behind every closed door (was that bartender a demon??), the sudden dagger in your back because you were staring at the dazzling lights too long instead of the assassin that prince probably sent to shank you after you looked at him the wrong way while crossing the street.
Apostae has a vibe, an aesthetic, a viral story, that is a fount of inspiration for both backstories and entire campaigns. This is corporatocracy in chaos. Any other sane person, evil-inclined, would arrange an infernal pact to bury their rivals under Hell's own lawyers and reign dark lord of the stock market – dystopia is a byproduct of success. In Apostae, dystopia itself is the dream, is the utopia. Drow double down on their chaotic and intrigue-ridden society to create something that is the very antithesis to corporate rule, in all but surface appearance. Drow don't summon demons because they want to edge out the competition – demons destroy everything they touch. They do it because upending the game board and watching everything burn is the game. Apostae delights in the consumption of sweet poison, in the conspicuous splash of red across the tapestry, and so we, too, delight in it. Aspis sanitizes its diabolical designs, Hell promises beautiful things, Eox speaks softly, signs pacts, and entertains – and on Apostae, those who are called by its succubi's song are captivated only because they know their demise will come swiftly, and their life leading up to that time will be filled with carnal and sensate delights. Apostae never tries to hide what it is. It is a world consumed by chaos at any given moment, that is only mistaken for order by outsiders who don't understand how masterfully Drow have adapted to perpetual chaos. These violent delights, and violent ends, are why it is so mystical and enchanting.
As a player, I also appreciate that Apostae's current culture gives players an "in" to play a character from a Game of Thronesian noble house, and explore that storytelling genre in a science fantasy setting. That's essential to Apostae, for me. If I may volunteer an alternative, I think it would be really interesting to see the Runelords and Nocticula's former domain in the Midnight Isles take a larger role in the Starfinder mythos, considering how much of the latter's aesthetic Apostae already shares, and the feuding, medieval intrigue themes of the former. Orcs getting a role in Starfinder that doesn't involve mostly being wage slaves for another culture would also be nice.
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Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of giving Orcs the role. Orcs are historically used as dumb evil brutes. I'd like to see them have a shot at having a more savvy role, and there's lots of ways that could play out in interesting ways.
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Within the existing context of the setting, though, that would transform orcs overnight from "oppressed underclass" to "scheming villains."
I mean, one way or another there's gonna be some overnight hijinks.