Dual-Weapon Reload action economy questions

[arcady]

I presume Dual-Weapon Reload only reloads one of the two guns you're holding:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1952

So if you've got the combination of Dual-Weapon Reload and Paired Shots and you've just used Paired shots... what's you're rotation look like?

I'm about to start playing a Pistolero with this very setup.

Turn one:

1,2: Paired Shot
3: Dual-Weapon Reload for one of the pistols.

Turn two:

1: Dual-Weapon Reload for the other pistol.
2, 3: Paired Shot

Repeat that cycle?

If I wanted to use Raconteur's Reload I'd have to drop or holster a weapon first?

So that action cycle would look like:

Turn one:

1,2: Paired Shot
3: drop one gun and Raconteur's Reload

Turn two:

1: Draw a new gun
1,2: Paired Shot

- In this case, we are assuming I have 3+ guns on hand. Which for my character is the case - she has 4 duelist pistols in the Gunner's Bandolier.

This about the right sequence of events or am I missing a rule somewhere?

[shroudb]

the rules check out, yes.

although for pf2 i would shy away from tying yourself into a "rotation" especially in a 2-3 round one. A single move action would interrupt it.

You do have the right idea with the gunner's bandolier though, since that does open up a more "free" action economy with how you figured out about dropping a gun to draw another.

[Ectar]

Unfortunately, yes.

I've heard on these forums that guns with the Capacity trait are meant to work with alternative forms of reloading, such as Raconteur's Reload. The strict wording of the Capacity trait doesn't work that way, but I've heard that dev comments have suggested that it's meant to.

If that were the case, with an appropriate weapon at least you could Raconteur's Reload with a gun in each hand (assuming you still have loaded barrels).

If somebody who knows could link the comment for further clarification, I'd really appreciate it <3

[Red Metal]

The capacity trait was updated in Treasure Vault to explicitly work with reload abilities.

Quote:

Capacity: Weapons that have the capacity trait typically have multiple barrels or chambers capable of containing a bolt or round of ammunition. Capacity is always accompanied by a number indicating the number of barrels or chambers. After firing a capacity weapon, you can select the next loaded barrel or chamber as an Interact action that doesn’t require a free hand. You can use abilities that let or require you to Interact to reload to switch barrels or chambers of a capacity weapon instead. Each barrel or chamber can be individually reloaded after it’s fired as a separate Interact action.

[Tactical Drongo]

So the only advantage of capacity is that they don't need a hand free and to pay for that they basically need 2 actions for every chamber to reload

I mean, I see the use for dual-wield gunslingers but beyond that the trait seems ... not very good and rather 'expensive' on the trait budget for what it does
albeit not far as bad as the monk trait

[shroudb]

Tactical Drongo wrote:

So the only advantage of capacity is that they don't need a hand free and to pay for that they basically need 2 actions for every chamber to reload

I mean, I see the use for dual-wield gunslingers but beyond that the trait seems ... not very good and rather 'expensive' on the trait budget for what it does
albeit not far as bad as the monk trait

no?

you still need only 1 action to actually reload a capacity chamber.

capacity is a straight upgrade:

1)as long as you have loaded chambers you don't need a free hand: you can simply switch chambers with the same action as reload.
2)when all chambers are emty you can keep reloading the last one as you would reload a normal firearm, and use that one, without the need to switch.

[Tactical Drongo]

that was what I meant

normal firearm: you shoot (1a) and reload(1a)

capacity firema you shoot (1a) and switch chamber (1a but doesnt need an extra hand)
after that 1 reload action for every chamber

unless you dual wield or otherwise have your offhand occupied at all time it seems strictly worse to me

[shroudb]

Tactical Drongo wrote:

that was what I meant

normal firearm: you shoot (1a) and reload(1a)

capacity firema you shoot (1a) and switch chamber (1a but doesnt need an extra hand)
after that 1 reload action for every chamber

unless you dual wield or otherwise have your offhand occupied at all time it seems strictly worse to me

no, you misunderstand how the trait works:

normal firearm: you shoot (1a) and reload (1a)
capacity firearm: you shoot (1a) and reload (1a) <- this part is exactly the same, you are just reloading your last champber, no need to switch.

IN ADDITION to the above:

capacity firearm: you shoot (1a) and change barrel (1a)

So it is a strict upgrade.

p.s. you are probably confusing it with the repeating trait where you need to switch a full magazine, but for capacity weapons you can keep reloading the same champber over and over again with the same exact action economy as if the trait never existed in the first place.

Basically:

for X shots, where X is the capacity number, you dont need a free hand. After X it's exactly the same as any other firearm without said trait.

[Tactical Drongo]

I understood that you can either reload or switch the chamber with the reload action

but changing barrel and reloading the barrel are two distinct actions

so if you have a capacity weapon they seem to be on average weaker and after you emptied your capacity with the sold advantage of not having to use both hands you are stuck with the usual way of reloading after each shot, for which you dont have the hands free
or you spend multiple actions, possibly turns, to reload multiple barrels which is an additional action drain that comes on top of the usual 1 action shoot, 1 action 'reload'

[shroudb]

Tactical Drongo wrote:

I understood that you can either reload or switch the chamber with the reload action

but changing barrel and reloading the barrel are two distinct actions

so if you have a capacity weapon they seem to be on average weaker and after you emptied your capacity with the sold advantage of not having to use both hands you are stuck with the usual way of reloading after each shot, for which you dont have the hands free
or you spend multiple actions, possibly turns, to reload multiple barrels which is an additional action drain that comes on top of the usual 1 action shoot, 1 action 'reload'

the fact that you can't use the upside more is not a downside compared to a base version without even the upside though.

so it is a strict upgrade for a time and after that it is equal.

i can't see how that's "strictly worse".

basically, if you have base power X, and with capacity you have 3-5 rounds of X+Y and afterwards you are back to X, it will always be a net positive.

same thing can be said about a ton of weapon variables.

take range as an example. it's great to have bigger range... for the first few rounds. after 2-3 rounds the difference between 30, 60 and 90 feet range is almost 0 since the enemies will have moved close to melee even if they started from far away.

[Tactical Drongo]

I don't see any advantages if you are not using both hands for dual wielding

and if I don't go for a dual wield build it has the disadvantage of power budget, making the weapon on average weaker then other without capacity

lets go for an example

lets say you go for a dual wield build
you want som firepower so you take the slide pistol
d6 damage and d10 fatal, solid weapon
you need it because you got another slide pistol (or a melee weapon as drifter in your hand)
you go 5 shots - you use your usual action economy and then you got a firearm which you can't use because you are having another weapon in your other hand (admittedly the five shots can already last you through many combats)
or if you go in the same proficiency segment and want a little more reach you go for the pepperbox
in that case you have only d4 fatal d8 damage and are out after three times shooting - now this is certainly not lasting you a combat against a tougher enemy, especially with the dinky damage

same time, lets see what we got as options if you take a single weapon

arquebus, d8 fatal d12, more damage then either and more range then both combined

dueling pistol d6 fatal d10, has the higher range of the two, the higher damage of the two and you can smuggle it into places
and with dual weapon reload or better rancanteurs reaload it is just as viable for dual wielding

not to mention that if you are dual wielding slide pistols you end up with double the bulk of an arquebus on a non-str character

it might come down to personal perception and preference - but while I see the advantages of a magazine, I have a really hard time seeing any net advantage for capacity outside a hand full of builds or the neccessity to not get dual weapon reload
admittedly a feat can be worth a lot

[arcady]

Tactical Drongo wrote:

I don't see any advantages if you are not using both hands for dual wielding

I see the advantage but the value depends on your overall plan (thus why in my first post I was working out a hypothetical rotation - once I know my "ideal situation" rotation, I can plan my gear and other actions around it, then think up strats for what to do when I cannot follow it).

Normal dual wielding:

First action: shoot a gun.
Second Action: reload via the dual-weapon reload feat.

Capacity weapon:

First Action: shoot a gun.
Second Action: switch chamber without needing the dual-weapon reload feat.

- That Second Action could be the use of a Gunslinger's Way special reload.

The tradeoff is a lower damage weapon that usually also has bulk to it. You can rapidly run out of bulk.

Here you need to decide just how worth it the gunslinger's way reload is to you. If you want to spam it every turn - then the capacity situation becomes valuable. If you're only using it a few times in a combat, then it might be more useful to do as I did in my first post and drop a gun, grabbing another soon after.

[shroudb]

Tactical Drongo wrote:

I don't see any advantages if you are not using both hands for dual wielding

and if I don't go for a dual wield build it has the disadvantage of power budget, making the weapon on average weaker then other without capacity

lets go for an example

lets say you go for a dual wield build
you want som firepower so you take the slide pistol
d6 damage and d10 fatal, solid weapon
you need it because you got another slide pistol (or a melee weapon as drifter in your hand)
you go 5 shots - you use your usual action economy and then you got a firearm which you can't use because you are having another weapon in your other hand (admittedly the five shots can already last you through many combats)
or if you go in the same proficiency segment and want a little more reach you go for the pepperbox
in that case you have only d4 fatal d8 damage and are out after three times shooting - now this is certainly not lasting you a combat against a tougher enemy, especially with the dinky damage

same time, lets see what we got as options if you take a single weapon

arquebus, d8 fatal d12, more damage then either and more range then both combined

dueling pistol d6 fatal d10, has the higher range of the two, the higher damage of the two and you can smuggle it into places
and with dual weapon reload or better rancanteurs reaload it is just as viable for dual wielding

not to mention that if you are dual wielding slide pistols you end up with double the bulk of an arquebus on a non-str character

it might come down to personal perception and preference - but while I see the advantages of a magazine, I have a really hard time seeing any net advantage for capacity outside a hand full of builds or the neccessity to not get dual weapon reload
admittedly a feat can be worth a lot

you shouldnt compare to a two handed weapon but rather two one handed weapons/ one handed+shield, afterall, that's the niche they cover.

in that case, the capacity weapon will come up ahead in overall performance

edit: and that's already outside of your original staement that "capacity is pure a negative" since you are now not comparing what the trait gives you but compare it to other traits/stats and what they give, which was never ht epoint of contention.