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Howdy y'all! N'wah/Ashton Sperry here, with an important post.
As it is often wont to do, Numeria came up during at least one of the panels today, and while it was confirmed Numeria's not on the immediate radar, there's no reason not to build up some hype and appreciation for a possible time when it is- after all, stranger things have happened!
Numeria's a special place- to me personally, as I've always loved that sweet swirl of fantasy and sci-fi that makes it so delicious- but it's also special in that covering Numeria fully would be the kind of affair that potentially affects all the product lines. Tech rules in the rulebooks; the nation, either as part of a Broken Lands book or one by its lonesome, in the Lost Omens line; and likely one or several adventures in the modules and/or AP lines. That certainly makes it an investment, in time, money, and annual shelf space!
That's why I wanted to start this thread: to show that there's loads of folks interested and eager to get back to that fantastical place. And not just as customers, but as freelancers, as well! I know I'm not alone in being someone whose go names in Paizo books and is downright eager to further flesh out the developments that have occurred in the intervening years, and I encourage my fellow freelancers who are so inclined to voice their interest as well.
So if you're one of the many folks for whom Numeria sings its siren song, let your voice be heard!
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Numeria’s what got me into Pathfinder! As one of the rare few 4e loyalists to have ever walked this Earth, edition war nonsense kept me away for years… until I caught a whiff of Iron Gods, and saw “The Other D&D” doing a story about an android becoming a goddess. It charmed the pants off me, so much so that I now pester the devs semi-regularly for PF2-playable Lashunta because of it.
A Broken Lands book out of the Lost Omens line would be a treat, as would a spiritual successor AP to Iron Gods. Casandalee’s cult remains tragically under-explored, the Dominion of the Black and the Chapel of Rent Flesh are among my favorite antagonists in the setting, Kevoth-Kul is awesome, I have a weird fixation on Lady Altouna and her Witchwyrd buddy…
Yes, yes, emphatically yes, I want Numeria.
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As Iron Gods is, to date, the only Pathfinder AP I've played to completion, Numeria holds a special place in my heart too! I really love the feeling that despite the fact that technological horrors still lurk in the unexplored places and things may not be perfect, Numeria has become, on the whole, a better place. The Technic League's tyranny has been broken, Kevoth-Kul is recovering and seems to at least be trying to be a better leader, and the threat of Unity has been stopped, and Casandalee is a truly Numerian goddess its people can be proud of. For the first time, Numeria feels like it has a future!
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I feel like Numeria is an undersold aspect of the Inner Sea region. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is one of the most iconic heroic fantasy adventures of all time, and instead of one dungeon, we have an entire nation. There's so much you can do: robots, aliens, androids, and it works within the setting rather than just being an isolated one off. Even Casandalee is right there. It's my second favorite area of the Inner Sea, and I'd love to see it more, even if it's just Org Play bounties/scenarios and one off adventures as a litmus test.
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Iron Gods was the third Pathfinder adventure path I ran, Iron Gods among Scientists. Thus, I don't have the nostalgia of it introducing me to Pathfinder, though it was the first adventure path I ran with my friends in New York after I retired and left Maryland. And those friends chose Iron Gods because they liked the mixed fantasy and science fiction setting.
Unlike many fantasy novels that defeat a villain, the Pathfinder adventure paths do not necessarily maintain the status quo. Things change. Rise of the Runelords did prevent the conquest of Varisia by a runelord, but its sequel Return of the Runelords split a new country off of Varisia. Wrath of the Righteous closed the Worldwound. Iron Gods set up a new god, Casandalee. Change begets change, so my curiosity wants sequels to follow the further developments.
My own players in Iron Gods had a opposite philosophy compared to the Technic League. The Technic League scavenged and hoarded the alien technology. The heroes made and shared the technology. Since making high technology required high-level feats and resources, most of their crafting was low technology. Thus, when keftiu posted the thread What would you want from “Iron Gods 2?”, I suggested steam technology as the Numerians harnessed the Androffan science. keftiu pointed out that steam technology would break the vivid contrast between barbaric fantasy and alien technology. Sigh, sequels ought not desecrate the theme that made the original fascinating.
What did happen in my games was a crossover between my ongoing Ironfang Invasion campaign and my completed Iron Gods campaign: How can I remove slavery from Ironfang Invasion? I did get an Iron Gods sequel, sort of. Unfortunately, this also means that my campaign world's version of Numeria is diverging even further from Paizo's official version of Numeria.
Nevertheless, my private return to Numeria has demonstrated to me that the place is still an excellent playground for further stories. Thus, I hope to see an official second adventure path there, even if I would have to severely rewrite it to fit it into my campaign world.
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Bring on Numeria please
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There’s a note in the 1e Numeria book that Lady Altouna is behind a nameless network of troubleshooters who work to save alien people from harm, and I still think it’s one of the coolest campaign pitches I’ve ever read.
My hope is that any return also gives us interplanetary Ancestries.
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The variety of ancestries, ordinary and exotic, that fit Numeria is a strong point for that setting.
Fires of Creation describes the population of Torch as 3,167 humans, 498 dwarves, 392 half-orcs, 168 gnomes, 32 half-elves, 28 halflings, 25 elves, 10 androids, so we have those ancestries readily available. Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars describes orcs as the primary population of Kuratown in the Felldales (rugged territory in southwest Numeria), and also places rural orc tribes all over Numeria. Ratfolk, now called ysoki, are found in the Sellen Hills (eastern Numeria) including in a ratfolk city called Chitterhome. The automaton ancestry can be adapted to create intelligent robots as player characters. As keftiu and N'wah pointed out, Numerian will be the best place for alien ancestries. And Numeria should gain a new versatile ancestry called "mutant," but we can fake it with other versatile ancestries.
The ancestries that stand out as missing are goblin and leshy. Goblins are common enough across Avistan that a few goblins immigrants would be plausible player characters. Leshies are created through magic, but in Numeria they could come from mutated plants or alien seeds.
The variety already created by humans, dwarves, gnomes, elves, orcs, ysoki, androids, robots, aliens and mutants would allow other exotic Golarion species such as iruxi and grippli to join adventuring parties without prejudice. This would allow carefree fun with diversity. Undead ancestries, such as skeleton, could still have trouble, but imagine an ancient Androffan human risen as undead and experiencing Golarion for the first time.
Creative Director
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It was mentioned at some point early in PF2, possibly even during the playtest, that with the 3-action economy something like the four-armed kasatha become a lot easier to balance around, so it's certainly been on somebody's mind, at least. Here's to hoping!
I may have been the one who mentioned that, and I stand by that comment, but I think the public disconnect between "My character has four arms; why am I limited to 3 actions?" is a very real mistaken perception that will cause an endless internet argument, alas.
The fact that the 3 action system isn't built based on an assumption of the number of arms you have is irrelevant to that.
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Others have said my thoughts better already, so I'll simply say if you make a Numeria product I will buy the heck out of it. Also, an AP that tours the Broken Lands would be wild! That one's probably a bigger ask, though. The unusual blend of themes would make it pretty niche. But *I* would play it.
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It was mentioned at some point early in PF2, possibly even during the playtest, that with the 3-action economy something like the four-armed kasatha become a lot easier to balance around, so it's certainly been on somebody's mind, at least. Here's to hoping!I may have been the one who mentioned that, and I stand by that comment, but I think the public disconnect between "My character has four arms; why am I limited to 3 actions?" is a very real mistaken perception that will cause an endless internet argument, alas.
The fact that the 3 action system isn't built based on an assumption of the number of arms you have is irrelevant to that.
This is interesting and counter intuitive to me, but I can totally see how people on the internet will debate anything, especially something that feels connected to power.
Like we have 0 examples of creatures in the real world that have more, functional, prehensile limbs that use tools. Using 2 arms to do different, complex things is hard enough, and splitting your attention between targets or objects feels like it would require a second head!
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It was mentioned at some point early in PF2, possibly even during the playtest, that with the 3-action economy something like the four-armed kasatha become a lot easier to balance around, so it's certainly been on somebody's mind, at least. Here's to hoping!I may have been the one who mentioned that, and I stand by that comment, but I think the public disconnect between "My character has four arms; why am I limited to 3 actions?" is a very real mistaken perception that will cause an endless internet argument, alas.
The fact that the 3 action system isn't built based on an assumption of the number of arms you have is irrelevant to that.
I have seen repeated arguments about small differences in interpretations here in the Paizo forums, so I believe James Jacobs about endless arguments. But long arguments do not mean that the issue is significant.
Recently, I ported the four-armed Vault Keeper xiomorn Ziguch the Seventh Facet to PF2 in Vault of the Onyx Citadel. Two of his claws held wands, the other two were available for his claw Strike with a Fortitude saving throw against Crystallization. And I copied the multi-arm Furious Claws attack from the gugs that the party fought in Siege of Stone.
Manifold Claws [Two Actions] Ziguch makes up to four claw Strikes, each against a different target. These attacks all count toward Ziguch’s multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after he makes all his attacks. Reduce the number of Strikes for each claw not free to Strike, such as a claw holding a wand.
The bestiaries have standard designs for four-armed creatures, and also the six-armed Marilith.. Players who faced such creatures will understand not giving a fourth Strike to four-armed ancestries, except for a version of Manifold Claws given as an ancestry feat.
I noticed a running theme in Iron Gods that each module had at least one four-armed creature.
A more complicated issue will be whether four-armed kasathas can use Double Slice or Twin Takedown while holding a pair of two-handed melee weapons in all four hands.
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Creative Director
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Others have said my thoughts better already, so I'll simply say if you make a Numeria product I will buy the heck out of it. Also, an AP that tours the Broken Lands would be wild! That one's probably a bigger ask, though. The unusual blend of themes would make it pretty niche. But *I* would play it.
You might wanna check out book 2 of Gatewalkers. It's kind of a "tour" of the Broken Lands, in that it spends time in 3 of the nations there.
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Others have said my thoughts better already, so I'll simply say if you make a Numeria product I will buy the heck out of it. Also, an AP that tours the Broken Lands would be wild! That one's probably a bigger ask, though. The unusual blend of themes would make it pretty niche. But *I* would play it.You might wanna check out book 2 of Gatewalkers. It's kind of a "tour" of the Broken Lands, in that it spends time in 3 of the nations there.
Looks like I'll be playing in that soon, so I'm excited to explore the region!
But anyhoo. Numeria. Yes.
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Add me to the list of those who'd ADORE more Numeria! (My chainsaw-wielding bloodrager from my Iron Gods game says hello.) :-)
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As someone who clamored for Iron Gods before it was a thing, and whose last post cast aspersions on receiving Iron Gods, I can honestly say I have always loved the idea of Numeria, but not always the execution thereof.
And although the initial exploration under Torch was a little mysterious, it couldn’t hold a candle (or battery powered lantern) to Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. And from there the departures were too many and too wide.
Still, go Numeria!
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I love Numeria content! Admittedly, I mostly use it to pick cool sci-fi bits and bobs to drop on my party for a little "Yeah, that's just a taste of what goes down in this setting". It's always going to be hype when a rail gun shows up unexpectedly.
Also, regarding 3+ armed ancestries, I'd like a sort of generalized ancestry feat that gives you something as a nod to the powergamey "more hands more better" perspective, but is otherwise unremarkable.