If you have a creature grabbed, is there any other way to restrain it than getting a critical success on a grapple check?
You can Trip too.
A Trip + Grabbed creature means that this creature restrict it's options even more. The escapes trials due the Attack trait receive -2 penalty due Prone. Also this usually drain too many actions of the creature once that to recover it need to Escape then Stand and this makes its 3rd action attacks affected by MAP due the Escape trial.
So this make the creature really consider to stay grabbed and prone and deal with -2 attack, flat-footed (-2 AC) and DC 5 flat to manipulate actions just to not loose it's entire turn trying to Escape and Stand. It's a huge benefit to those who is fighting this creature even it's not been completely paralyzed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/rek3w9/to_arrest_an_uns toppable_force/
https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/comments/rek3w9/to_arrest_an_uns toppable_force/
Sorry, I had just woken up. Attempting to restrain a higher level foe
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There are the Handcuffs from the Agents of Edgewatch AP. So if you are a GM looking for mechanics to support plot of capturing an enemy rather than just killing them, I would look there.
If you are a player looking for ways to apply a really debilitating condition mid-combat without needing a critical success on a roll, then you probably aren't going to find anything.
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The escapes trials due the Attack trait receive -2 penalty due Prone.I don't believe attempting to Escape suffers the -2 penalty. Despite having the attack trait, it is not an attack roll but rather a skill check. This was clarified in an errata.
I never noticed this before:
Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."
To clarify the different rules elements involved:
An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.
An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.
Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.
The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well. As it says later on in the definition of attack roll "Striking multiple times in a turn has diminishing returns. The multiple attack penalty (detailed on page 446) applies to each attack after the first, whether those attacks are Strikes, special attacks like the Grapple action of the Athletics skill, or spell attack rolls." There is inaccurate language in the Multiple Attack Penalty section implying it applies only to attack rolls that will be receiving errata.
This makes everything more confusing!
So Escape isn't an "attack roll" (because don't use this expression) but has attack trait so it's suffers from an eventual MAP. So you can use "your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect" to try to Escape but you cannot apply any other buff or penalty to this roll because it isn't an "attack roll".
I really hope that Paizo rename this Trait to MAP or any other thing than attack.
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From a game design standpoint it does make sense. Not every character is going to be trained in acrobatics and have a reasonably high DEX. So if an acrobatics check was the only option for Escape, then there would be a lot of characters that could get shut down hard by Grapple.
Allowing characters to use their unarmed attack bonus as well prevents that. Every character is at least trained in unarmed attacks and with Fist having the finesse trait it can be tied to either Strength or Dexterity. It may still be difficult for some characters, but it will be fewer of them. And it won't be so bad that it isn't worth rolling like a +0 DEX untrained Acrobatics check would be after level 5.
I really hope that Paizo rename this Trait to MAP or any other thing than attack.
I would definitely agree with that. It would also prevent the confusion that not all attacks are Attacks and not every Attack is an attack.
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From a game design standpoint it does make sense. Not every character is going to be trained in acrobatics and have a reasonably high DEX. So if an acrobatics check was the only option for Escape, then there would be a lot of characters that could get shut down hard by Grapple.
True but I just don't think Acrobatics does enough as a skill. Acrobatics or Athletics of unarmed attack is a bit too generous. Especially since everyone gets unarmed attack now. That this rule exists is enough reason to not bother with either skill for many characters.
That this rule exists is enough reason to not bother with either skill for many characters.
Not sure why that is being presented as a bad thing.
Having mandatory skills is - as best as I can tell from the treatment of Perception - something that PF2 intended to avoid from the very beginning.
True but I just don't think Acrobatics does enough as a skill. Acrobatics or Athletics of unarmed attack is a bit too generous. Especially since everyone gets unarmed attack now. That this rule exists is enough reason to not bother with either skill for many characters.
So IRL if somebody grabs you and tries to stuff you into a Van you're not going to punch the guy grabbing you in the face because acrobatics needs more love? I'll take the system that gets as close to things that might work in reality can be tried in the game over a system that tries to artificially give things a niche by removing other options.
From a game design standpoint it does make sense. Not every character is going to be trained in acrobatics and have a reasonably high DEX. So if an acrobatics check was the only option for Escape, then there would be a lot of characters that could get shut down hard by Grapple.True but I just don't think Acrobatics does enough as a skill. Acrobatics or Athletics of unarmed attack is a bit too generous. Especially since everyone gets unarmed attack now. That this rule exists is enough reason to not bother with either skill for many characters.
I don't think unarmed attack proficiency is going to help climbing a tree, or diving gracefully out of it and swimming to shore.
Honestly, it does make sense for unarmed attack to fit into antigrappling. If you have to bite your way out of a hostile grab, then nom nom. And it doesn't invalidate Acrobatics to tumble past or Athletics to takedown a foe. Plus all the non-combat uses for those skills.
From a game design standpoint it does make sense. Not every character is going to be trained in acrobatics and have a reasonably high DEX. So if an acrobatics check was the only option for Escape, then there would be a lot of characters that could get shut down hard by Grapple.True but I just don't think Acrobatics does enough as a skill. Acrobatics or Athletics of unarmed attack is a bit too generous. Especially since everyone gets unarmed attack now. That this rule exists is enough reason to not bother with either skill for many characters.
I also think that have the 3 options and especially Unarmed Attacks are too generous too. Especially to bind opponents.
Even now that I notice that Escape isn't an attack roll and because of this finesse trait isn't applicable. With enough time any character is able to Escape vs any DC that don't allow a successful in a nat critc (so only extremely high DC are unescapable).With currently rules every character has a good chance to Escape from any grabbing, especially monsters, only full spellcasters without Str bonus, athletics, acrobatics and Freedom of Movement that have some difficult to Escape but even these probably can try to Escape trying roll until achieve a 20.
Some players sometimes try to capture opponents keeping them bind by a rope or manacles but these opponent just didn't Escaped because me as GM don't wanted, once that by RAW they can surely Escape with enough time.