CRB tells us that 'All patterns are mind-affecting spells'. For example, when it comes to the well-known Color Spray, its school is described as illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]--like the vast majority of illusion (pattern) spells, it has the [mind-affecting] descriptor.
However, the school of the spell 'Dazzling Blade' from Rival Guide is written as illusion (pattern)--clearly there is no [mind-affecting] descriptor.
So is Dazzling Blade mind-effecting just following the 'All patterns are mind-affecting spells' rule, or should it be counted as an exception since its target is 'one metal weapon' instead of creatures?
It still follows the normal rules. The effects of the pattern are still mind affecting. Dazzling Blade lacks the Mind Affecting descriptor becaus it targets an inanimate object, but the pattern created still only affects targets susceptible to mind-affecting effects. Most pattern spells directly affect targets, Dazzling Blade is one of the few that indirectly affects targets.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Illusion
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.
Subschools
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Phantasm: a phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.
Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.
Dazzling Blade
School illusion (pattern); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range Touch
Target one metal weapon
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates (see text); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)DESCRIPTION
Dazzling blade makes a weapon appear dazzlingly shiny, as if crafted from pure silver and heavily polished. In combat, the flashing movements of a dazzling blade become almost hypnotic. The wielder of a weapon under the effects of dazzling blade gains a +1 competence bonus on all Bluff checks made to feint in combat. The wielder also gains a +1 competence bonus on all CMB checks made to disarm a foe, and a +1 competence bonus to his CMD against disarm attempts made against the weapon bearing the dazzling blade effect. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 caster levels, to a maximum bonus of +5 at 12th level.
The wielder of a dazzling blade can discharge the spell into a blinding burst of silvery light as a free action. The wielder selects an adjacent opponent as the focal point of this burst of light—that creature must make a Will save to avoid being blinded for 1 round (with a successful save, the creature is instead dazzled for 1 round).
Despite its shiny appearance, a dazzling blade grants no extra benefit against creatures that are vulnerable to silver.
Dazzling Blade and Dazzling Blade, Mass are the only spells of any [Pattern] spell that don't have the mind-affecting type. Color Spray, Hypnotic Pattern, Inhibiting Patterns, Loathsome Veil, Rainbow Pattern, Scintillating Pattern, Scintillating Wall, Wall of Nausea, and Wandering Star Motes are all mind-affecting pattern spells though.
Even though it says "all patterns are mind-affecting spells", this is a General Rule. And this General Rule gets superseded in authority by the Specific Rule of Dazzling Blade's spell description that it is not a mind-affecting effect.
Specific Rules > General Rules.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Simply lacking the [mind-affecting] descriptor doesn’t constitute a new specific rule. Nothing in the spells description claims it to change the rules for patterns. The [mind-affecting] descriptor wasn’t even necessary on patterns in the first place due to the rules for patterns clearly stating that they are always mind-affecting.
Also, note… with the exception of Dazzling Blade, all patterns target a specific creature or area. Dazzling Blade affects an object. The effect of the pattern is still Mind-affecting but the spell itself is not.
Simply lacking the [mind-affecting] descriptor doesn’t constitute a new specific rule.
It does tho.
=============================
General Rule:
All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Therefore, all pattern spells are mind-affecting spells.
=============================
Specific Rule:
Dazzling BladeSchool illusion (pattern); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Therefore, this pattern spell is not a mind-affecting spell.
=============================
There is a reason that every single Pattern Spell in the entire game says [mind-affecting] in the spell description, except Dazzling Blade is the only Pattern Spell that doesn't, and it's because Dazzling Blade provides its bonus to the WIELDER as a competence bonus. If it was truly mind-affecting, then nearby enemies would receive a Will Save or have their AC debuffed as an untyped penalty vs. attacks made with this blade.
Furthermore, Dazzling Blade is meant to be able to blind mindless undead creatures, very similar to how Glitterdust can be used to blind undead.
You are equating an absence of a rule as being a new rule which it simply is not. There is no specific rule there, you are literally fabricating one out of your head.
Yeah, the mere absence of something assumed doesn't mean the assumed thing isn't still true.
There would need to be explicit text that it is not mind-affecting.
Color Spray
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 1, bloodrager 1, magus 1, mesmerist 1, psychic 1, redmantisassassin 1, sorcerer 1, wizard 1
Hypnotic Pattern
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 2, bard 2, mesmerist 2, psychic 2, redmantisassassin 2, skald 2, sorcerer 2, wizard 2
Inhibiting Patterns
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 4, bard 3, psychic 4, skald 3, sorcerer 4, wizard 4
Loathsome Veil
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 3, mesmerist 3, psychic 3, redmantisassassin 3, sorcerer 3, witch 3, wizard 3
Rainbow Pattern
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 4, bard 4, psychic 4, redmantisassassin 4, skald 4, sorcerer 4, wizard 4
Scintillating Pattern
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 8, psychic 8, sorcerer 8, wizard 8
Scintillating Wall
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 5, bard 4, psychic 5, skald 4, sorcerer 5, wizard 5
Wall of Nausea
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 3, bard 3, psychic 3, redmantisassassin 3, skald 3, sorcerer 3, wizard 3
Wandering Star Motes
School illusion (pattern) [light, mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 4, bard 4, occultist 4, psychic 4, redmantisassassin 4, shaman 4, skald 4, sorcerer 4, witch 4, wizard 4
========================================================================== =======
I wonder why they'd go to all the trouble to say that these ----^ spells are mind-affecting and then purposefully not also say that Dazzling Blade is mind-affecting.
Dazzling Blade
School illusion (pattern); Level arcanist 1, bard 1, redmantisassassin 1, skald 1, sorcerer 1, wizard 1
Dazzling Blade and Undead <---- Gisher and Avr disagree with you as well.
It's not designated as a mind-affecting effect in the spell description, therefore it is not a mind-affecting effect.
Specific Rules > General Rules.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a lot of text that gets repeated just for ease of reading, but it's not really required. Like how an archetype doesn't actually have to say that it is modifying an ability for that ability to count as modified.
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rai
Pattern spells don't have to specify they are mind-affecting, as they are by default. But it's still nice to remind people of that fact in the text.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The wielder of a dazzling blade can discharge the spell into a blinding burst of silvery light as a free action. The wielder selects an adjacent opponent as the focal point of this burst of light—that creature must make a Will save to avoid being blinded for 1 round (with a successful save, the creature is instead dazzled for 1 round).
That's the part that's a pattern and thus mind-effecting. It's basically color spray-lite.
The wielder of a dazzling blade can discharge the spell into a blinding burst of silvery light as a free action. The wielder selects an adjacent opponent as the focal point of this burst of light—that creature must make a Will save to avoid being blinded for 1 round (with a successful save, the creature is instead dazzled for 1 round).That's the part that's a pattern and thus mind-effecting. It's basically color spray-lite.
If it was mind-affecting, it would say so in the spell description.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If it was mind-affecting, it would say so in the spell description.
Dude. Just stop. That's not how that works. All Pattern spells are mind-affecting. For one not to be mind-affecting, it would need text along the lines of "This is not mind affecting effect"
Dude. Just stop.
I'll post whatever I want on the internet tyvm. I don't need your permission to do anything.
it would need text along the lines of "This is not mind affecting effect"
Oh, does it affect the mind of the weapon? Is that how it works?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, I guess I can't stop you from being blatantly wrong, but you're just embarrassing yourself.
it would need text along the lines of "This is not mind affecting effect"Oh, does it affect the mind of the weapon? Is that how it works?
You quoted me stating how it works.
The wielder of a dazzling blade can discharge the spell into a blinding burst of silvery light as a free action. The wielder selects an adjacent opponent as the focal point of this burst of light—that creature must make a Will save to avoid being blinded for 1 round (with a successful save, the creature is instead dazzled for 1 round).
That is a pattern effect. Thus mind affecting.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Look at the save category:
Saving Throw Will negates (see text);Now look at the part of the spell that cares about Saving Throws:
The wielder selects an adjacent opponent as the focal point of this burst of light—that creature must make a Will save to avoid being blinded for 1 round (with a successful save, the creature is instead dazzled for 1 round).
Now just put 2 and 2 together. Is the weapon saving against this spell? Or is the target of that effect saving against this spell? Similarly, is this mind-affecting for the sword or mind-affecting for the target of that affect.
K, if the Blind is the part that's mind affecting, lemme ask you this then: Let's say that I choose to NOT discharge the spell, and I attack a whole bunch of enemies. Is it still mind-affecting?
K, if the Blind is the part that's mind affecting, lemme ask you this then: Let's say that I choose to NOT discharge the spell, and I attack a whole bunch of enemies. Is it still mind-affecting?
Look at the spell again. It's mind-affecting the wielder, not the enemies.
The wielder of a weapon under the effects of dazzling blade gains a +1 competence bonus on all Bluff checks made to feint in combat. The wielder also gains a +1 competence bonus on all CMB checks made to disarm a foe, and a +1 competence bonus to his CMD against disarm attempts made against the weapon bearing the dazzling blade effect.[/quote
The target of the spell is the wielder? I dunno, to me, it kinda looks like "one metal weapon" is the target of the spell.
This must be one of those fancy schmancy spells that only works on Sentient weapons, got it.
The target of the spell is the wielder? I dunno, to me, it kinda looks like "one metal weapon" is the target of the spell.
Yeah, it's really complicated. And truly it could have been written better. But honestly, it'd be a messy thing to write no matter who did it.
It's a spell you cast on an object that then gives a bunch of abilities to the wielder. The abilities affect minds. The item itself doesn't benefit at all. Flavor-wise, that's a fun spell, but mechanically it ties itself in knots.
Sounds complicated. Maybe that's why they dropped [mind-affecting] type from the spell. It uncomplicates all the mental gymnastics you're doing trying to rationalize this as a mind-affecting spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As for mind affecting spells not affecting objects. That's irrelevant, because the target overrides that general rule. This is no different than share spells changing the target of enlarge person, even though your familiar or companion is not a humanoid.
Yeah, it's not a mind-affecting spell, dude. If it was mind-affecting, then it would say [mind-affecting] in the spell description like EVERY.. SINGLE.. OTHER.. PATTERN.. SPELL.. in the entire game.
This is every pattern spell in the game (other than dazzling blade). Notice how each and every single one of them say mind-affecting in the spell description?
Color Spray
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 1, bloodrager 1, magus 1, mesmerist 1, psychic 1, redmantisassassin 1, sorcerer 1, wizard 1
Hypnotic Pattern
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 2, bard 2, mesmerist 2, psychic 2, redmantisassassin 2, skald 2, sorcerer 2, wizard 2
Inhibiting Patterns
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 4, bard 3, psychic 4, skald 3, sorcerer 4, wizard 4
Loathsome Veil
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 3, mesmerist 3, psychic 3, redmantisassassin 3, sorcerer 3, witch 3, wizard 3
Rainbow Pattern
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 4, bard 4, psychic 4, redmantisassassin 4, skald 4, sorcerer 4, wizard 4
Scintillating Pattern
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 8, psychic 8, sorcerer 8, wizard 8
Scintillating Wall
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 5, bard 4, psychic 5, skald 4, sorcerer 5, wizard 5
Wall of Nausea
School illusion (pattern) [mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 3, bard 3, psychic 3, redmantisassassin 3, skald 3, sorcerer 3, wizard 3
Wandering Star Motes
School illusion (pattern) [light, mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 4, bard 4, occultist 4, psychic 4, redmantisassassin 4, shaman 4, skald 4, sorcerer 4, witch 4, wizard 4
Now notice that this spell doesn't say [mind-affecting]?
Dazzling Blade
School illusion (pattern); Level arcanist 1, bard 1, redmantisassassin 1, skald 1, sorcerer 1, wizard 1
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dude. You already posted that page consuming thing before. And it was just as irrelevant now as then.
Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Omission could be from anything from accident to space saving. But Omission is also meaningless. Whether the spell lists it or not "All patterns are mind-affecting".
I could get some crayons and draw pictures if you want. I'm also open to explaining this through Interpretive Dance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I could get some crayons and draw pictures if you want. I'm also open to explaining this through Interpretive Dance.
I see what you're saying. It's just very wrong. It's like you're explaining how red that yellow is because it doesn't have any blue in it.
General rules don't supersede Specific Rules of spells. The specific rules in the spell do not call this spell a mind-affecting effect. <---- I'll draw this one in purple for you?
I bet the reason it's not called out as a mind-affecting effect is because it targets a fricking object.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
General rules don't supersede Specific Rules of spells. The specific rules in the spell do not call this spell a mind-affecting effect. <---- I'll draw this one in purple for you?
That's not how that works. Omitting a fact doesn't make the fact less true. "All patterns are mind-affecting". Just because the spell doesn't remind you of that fact doesn't keep it from being true.
That's exactly how it works. Specific Rules > General Rules. Just do what the spell says, mmmk?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I linked the FAQ of this earlier, but maybe you aren't familiar with that issue.
This ability alters the bloodline class feature, bloodline powers, and bloodline spells.
You will find that almost every archetype has this kind of language when an ability is modified. But then there is crossblooded.
Bloodline Arcana: A crossblooded sorcerer gains the bloodline arcana of both her bloodlines.
Oh. It doesn't say that the ability was modified, so then can you stack it with some other archetype that alters your bloodline arcana?
No. Because the simple omission of the very common reminder text that an ability is being modified doesn't change the fact that the ability was modified.
Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.
A pattern being mind-affecting is just reminder text. It's presence or absence doesn't change the fact that it is what it is.
[Descriptors] are not "reminder text". They literally tell you how the spell interacts with the world.
[Descriptor]Appearing on the same line as the school and sub-school, when applicable, is a descriptor that further categorizes the spell in some way. Some spells have more than one descriptor.
The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, curse, darkness, death, disease, draconic, earth, electricity, emotion, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, meditative, mind-affecting, pain, poison, shadow, sonic, and water.
Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In this case the Descriptor is reminder text, or at the least redundant. And it's very helpful, because clearly not everyone remembers that "All patterns are mind affecting".
So can I put any descriptor I want on any other spell because I think the developers forgot something?
I'm gonna make all my Fireballs mind-affecting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So can I put any descriptor I want on any other spell because I think the developers forgot something?
I'm gonna make all my Fireballs mind-affecting.
That's not remotely the same thing. It'd be more like if there was a theoretical general rule that all fire spells have the light descriptor, then you wouldn't necessarily have to remind everyone that it's a light spell every time. Even though that is useful information and should be included.
Excellent, now we're getting somewhere. Henceforth, all spells with the [Fire] descriptor also have the [Light] descriptor. I think we should throw in the [Pain] descriptor too, because it causes hit point damage, and that's painful.
Also, any [Fire] spell that kills someone gains the [Death] descriptor.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's another fun example of reminder text.
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following...
A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full.
Wow. So, I guess monks can't headbutt? And no one else can attack unarmed if they are holding something? That can't be right?
Omission just isn't enough to count for countering simple truths.
Spell [Descriptors] are not reminder text. So go ahead and jot that one down.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spell [Descriptors] are not reminder text. So go ahead and jot that one down.
Reminder text is reminder text and can be added in any section.
Reminder text is reminder text and can be added in any section.
Cool, I'm going to add [Good] to all my Fireballs, because frying my enemies and taking their loot is a good thing imo.
I'm also going to add [Fear] to all my fireballs, because fire can be scary
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does anyone know how to say "you are only making yourself look stupid, you should be quiet now" in a way that is within the forum rules? Asking for a friend.