Hello!
I'm having some trouble deciding on a Monk build for a Beginner Box game next week. This will be my first time playing PF2E, as well as my first time playing a Monk (I have played several editions and many years of that other game, though). I think some of the trouble I'm having is just trying to decide what I want as there are a lot more things to choose from in PF2E.
Anyway, I'll be playing an Monk; here's what I originally decided on:
Ancestry: Orc
Background: Perfection Seeker
Class: Monk
Level 1
Abilities: Str 18 / Dex 16 / Con 12 / Int 10 / Wis 12 / Cha 10
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Lore: Warfare, Medicine, Stealth, Survival
Heritage: Hold-Scarred Orc
Ancestry Feat: Orc Ferocity
Class Feat: Monastic Weaponry
Darkvision
Flurry of Blows
Powerful Fist
Free Feat: Cat Fall
Free Feat: Diehard
Level 2
Class Feat: Brawling Focus
Skill Feat: Assurance (Athletics)
OK, I've decided to go with a Bo Staff (1d8+4(B) damage), and as I didn't select a stance, a standard unarmed strike (1d6+4(B) damage). I think I can use the Bo Staff with Flurry of Blows, but I'm not sure if the damage would be 1d8+4 (Bo Staff) or 1d6+4 (standard unarmed strike)
I think I don't need much more than this as the character is only going to go as far as second level.
Any comments or suggestions are welcome.
Ki strike or ki rush is probably a better use of your 2nd level feat.
You could also consider something like beastmaster dedication which gives you a flanker and something to use your 3rd action on often or blessed one dedication for focus point healing.
Stunning fist is also there, but the success rate is miserable.
When using a monk weapon with Monastic Weaponry, the weapon damage is what you use for all attacks with it including Flurry of Blows.
I’m not sure that Assurance is a good choice at 2nd level unless the character will be continuing on past playing Beginner Box. You may want to look at a different skill feat. Ki Strike in lieu of Brawling Focus is a good choice for early level damage and accuracy, but a little less so if a bard is in the party as the status bonuses don’t stack.
Because you took Monastic Weaponry, you can use the Bo Staff with Flurry of Blows. As Lucerious pointed out, the damage for the Bo Staff would be 1d8+4, not 1d6+4.
When you Flurry as your first attack on a turn, your first Strike has no penalty but the second Strike has a Multiple Attack Penalty of -5. If you want to reduce that penalty and the enemy is adjacent to you, consider making the second attack with your unarmed attack. It has the Agile trait, so the penalty would only be -4.
In Pathfinder 2E, Monks' biggest strength is their ability to attack twice with Flurry of Blows. Flurry of Blows has the Flourish trait, so you can only use it once a round. However, even if you could use it more often, it'd usually be better to find other ways to spend your actions because the Multiple Attack Penalty is -10 for post-Flurry attacks. Using Agile weapons reduces that to -8, but that's still high enough to make post-Flurry attacks extremely unreliable.
With a Bo Staff, you've already got a good post-Flurry action in Parry. You could also Step or Stride away from enemies so they have to re-engage you if they want to attack.
But it can be useful to have other options. One of the most widely applicable is Demoralize, which can inflict Frightened 1 or Frightened 2 on enemies. Frightened is nice because it reduces enemies' "checks and DCs," including their attack rolls, armor class and saving throws.
If you successfully Demoralize someone before using Flurry of Blows, you'll be more likely to hit them. If your allies happen to act before that enemy reduces its Frightened value at the end of its next turn, their spells and attacks will also be more likely to succeed.
To use Demoralize, you need training in Intimidate. You could get that by swapping one of your trained skills or changing your heritage to Battle-Ready Orc.
But don't feel obligated to do this. All of the skills you have can be useful in the Beginner Box, and Demoralize, though a nice option when you don't need to move, isn't earth-shattering. Each hero can only attempt to Demoralize each enemy once, and the enemies reduce their Frightened value by 1 at the end of their turns.
My main point is that as a Monk, you should be looking for things to do other than attack. That could mean slamming doors in enemies' faces, grabbing an object they want before they can get to it, or whatever else the environment suggests to you.
Thanks for the posts so far everyone.
I've updated the build to this:
Ancestry: Orc
Background: Perfection Seeker
Class: Monk
Level 1
Abilities: Str +4 / Dex +3 / Con +1 / Int +0 / Wis +1 / Cha +0
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Intimidation, Lore: Warfare, Stealth, Survival, Thievery
Heritage: Battle Ready
Ancestry Feat: Orc Ferocity
Class Feat: Monastic Weaponry
Darkvision
Flurry of Blows
Powerful Fist
Free Feat: Cat Fall
Free Feat: Intimidating Glare
Level 2
Class Feat: Ki Strike
Skill Feat: Assurance (Athletics)
Ki Spell Type: Occult
@Lucerious
Changed level 2 class feat to Ki Strike; still not sure what I should change Assurance to for the short-term Beginner Box adventure. I would like to expand this build past level 2, though. Perhaps you can make some suggestions?
@Thaliak
Parry, Demoralize, Step, Stride, and Trip, are all things I was considering. Trip is on the Bo Staff. Would it be a separate action to use, or would it count as part of a successful strike with the Bo Staff? I like your suggestion of finding other environment uses.
@Everyone
I really like the idea of playing a Monk in a long-term campaign and would like to expand this build out.
Not sure of what overall theme I should go with, but here are some things that I definitely like the idea of:
1. Using Bo Staff and general idea of area control (Stand Still, Whirling Throw, Improved Knockback, ???)
2. Possible dedications (Fighter, Staff Acrobat, ???)
3. Possible stances (Fuse Stance, Tangled Forest Stance, Tiger Stance, Whirlwind Stance, ???)
4. Ki Spells (Abundant Step; don't know much else could/should be added in with all the other stuff above)
Here's some other stuff that sounds good, but I'm not sure is appropriate/would fit:
1. Dedications (Cleric, Rogue, Student of Perfection, ???)
2. Ornate Tattoo (tattoos in general)
3. Grappling
As before, any comments or suggestions are welcome.
Quote: Trip is on the Bo Staff. Would it be a separate action to use, or would it count as part of a successful strike with the Bo Staff? The Bo Staff's Trip trait primarily allows you to use the Trip action with the weapon. Normally, you need a free hand to perform the four Athletics-based debuffs: Trip, Grapple, Shove or Disarm.
All four of these actions require the character to make an Athletics roll against the opponent's Reflex DC (for Trip and Disarm) or their Fortitude DC (for Grapple and Shove). The actions have the Attack trait, so they contribute to and suffer from Multiple Attack Penalty.
Of the four Athletics-based actions, Trip is the most universally useful. Knocking enemies Prone makes them flat-footed to all attacks, including ranged strikes from archers and spell attack rolls from casters. It also forces them to either spend an action standing up or take a -2 penalty on all their attack rolls.
If they stand up, a friendly Level 1 Fighter can whack them with Attack of Opportunity. Most melee-oriented classes get similar reactions at higher levels. For example, Monks get Stand Still at Level 4, and Barbarians, Champions, Magi and Swashbucklers can replicate the Fighter's Attack of Opportunity through feats at Level 6.
Because reactions to standing up become more common as characters level, Trip become more impactful. At Level 1, it may often be better to Strike unless you know several allies will be attacking the enemy, you have a Fighter nearby to punish standing up, you're trying to slow the enemy down, or you think the enemy has an unusually low Reflex save.
Grapple is the next most useful because Grabbed can lock enemies in place and force casters to make a DC 5 flat check or lose spells with Somatic components (which is most two-action spells). Shove is situational, but I've occasionally seen it used to push enemies into a line for spellcasters, force enemies away from choke points or push them off cliffs. Disarm rarely gets used because it requires a Critical Success to have a meaningful effect.
If you're interested in area control, consider Stand Still, Flurry of Maneuvers and Tangled Forest Stance. Because Tangled Forest Stance's lock-in-place effect is based on reach, Bo Staff can enhance it.
Whirling Throw is a fun feat, but it's better for Monks who fight unarmed because Grapple requires characters to have a hand free. You can drop a hand from your Bo Staff as a free action to Grapple, but once you've done that, you'll need to spend an action to regrip the Bo Staff before you can use it.
What to focus on depends on the party. Let's take area control as an example. If you're playing alongside a Champion, a Shield Fighter, and a caster that gets eight hit points a level (such as a Bard, Druid or Cleric), it's less useful. But if the only other front line character is a Rogue and the back line consists of a Wizard and a Sorcerer, two classes with the game's worst hit point and save progression, it can come in handy.
Monks have strong enough feats that I'd only look at archetypes if you really need them or the game is using the Free Archetype variant rule, which gives characters an extra feat that can only be spent on archetypes at every even level. If you do decide to look at archetypes, others to consider include Acrobat, which provides three free skill increases, and Wrestler, which focuses on Grappling.
Thaliak wrote: All four of these actions require the character to make an Athletics roll against the opponent's Reflex DC (for Trip and Disarm) or their Fortitude DC (for Grapple and Shove). The actions have the Attack trait, so they contribute to and suffer from Multiple Attack Penalty. -
So, if I'm understanding correctly, it would be best to:
1. Attempt a trip with the Bo Staff
2. Flurry of Blows with the Bo Staff
3. Parry/Step/Stride/Environment Interaction
-
Do you have a suggestion for something to replace Assurance (Athletics) at level 2 for a BB game?
Also, assuming this character was being built for a longer campaign, what would be a good level to take Assurance (Athletics) at, if at all?
-
Would it better to drop the Bo Staff to grapple and pick it up again later, or release one hand, grapple, and then reestablish grip later?
Using an Athletics check with the Attack trait contributes to your MAP (multiple attack penalty). I would not recommend doing one before your Flurry of Blows because you will have a -5/-10 to those two attacks respectively. Even with a flatfooted foe, that ends up being equivalent to -3/-8. Use the Assurance to make a third (or second) action after your flurry which will avoid additional issues with MAP for that action. Assurance for Athletics will become more useful when you upgrade the skill to expert and beyond as it only uses your proficiency rank and level +10, and does not include your item bonus or ability bonus.
Dropping the staff is a free action, but picking it back up costs an action and can trigger Attacks of Opportunity if the opponent has one. Just use the weapon to attack and trip. If you want to grapple, disarm, or shove, then you will need a free hand. However, that may be something another PC does. You can always go with a stance in lieu of Monastic Weaponry which will avoid that issue entirely, or pick up a weapon with the traits that allow those maneuvers.
It is possible a different skill feat for Athletics would be useful to you. Quick Jump, Hefty Hauler, and Titan Wrestler can all be good choices until you advance Athletics a bit further.
This thread should be in the Advice forum. I tagged the first post so that it will be moved there.
Quote: So, if I'm understanding correctly, it would be best to:
1. Attempt a trip with the Bo Staff
2. Flurry of Blows with the Bo Staff
3. Parry/Step/Stride/Environment Interaction
If you intend to Trip without Assurance, it's better to do that before Flurry because critically failing a Trip attempt would cause you to Fall prone, but there's no consequence for critically failing an attack roll. However, it's often better not to Trip at all unless the party includes characters who can spend a reaction to attack an enemy as they stand. At Level 1, the only characters with that capability are Fighters or Thaumaturges with the Weapon Implement who has used Exploit Vulnerability on the Prone creature.
If you do have a Fighter in the party, tripping with the Monk trades an attack for an attack that is more accurate (because Fighters start with Expert proficiency in all weapons) and might do more damage (if the Fighter is using a two-handed weapon that deals 1d10 or 1d12 damage).
Quote: Do you have a suggestion for something to replace Assurance (Athletics) at level 2 for a BB game? Quick Jump is a solid suggestion.
If you know you're going to fight a specific type of creature, consider Additional Lore for that type of creature so you can Recall Knowledge about it. It's possible to do so during combat, but if you have signs that a specific creature is ahead, try to make the check before you need to count actions.
If you expect a specific type of terrain, Terrain Stalker might be helpful.
Even though I've read through the Beginner Box to prepare running it, I had trouble thinking of skill feats that would have a huge impact. In general, character development is about building a toolbox rather than becoming amazing at one routine. I've had feats that I only used a few times across a 20-level campaign because the situation where they applied only came up occasionally.
Quote: Also, assuming this character was being built for a longer campaign, what would be a good level to take Assurance (Athletics) at, if at all? I think taking Assurance (Athletics) at 2 or 4 is fine. How valuable it is depends on how often you fight lower-level creatures. If the GM only likes throwing one or two enemies at the party, it'll rarely be useful even if you're prioritizing Athletics. However, if the GM varies combats, as the game recommends, you'll often find yourself fighting several low-level enemies or a few enemies with an obvious lack of Reflex.
By the way, when you have mechanical questions about interactions with monsters, it's sometimes fun to look at the monster-building rules, such as the guidelines for saving throws. A Level 2 character with Assurance (Athletics) and Trained proficiency could reliably Trip a Level 1 enemy if that enemy's Reflex save is Low or Terrible but could only use Assurance on an enemy with Moderate Reflex if that enemy is three levels lower and its Reflex save has been reduced (possibly by Demoralize).
The situation where Assurance (Athletics) works happens a decent amount. I've gotten plenty of use out of it in a conversion of Hell's Rebels.
Quote: Would it better to drop the Bo Staff to grapple and pick it up again later, or release one hand, grapple, and then reestablish grip later? There's no reason to drop the weapon unless you need to Grapple two enemies at once, which should rarely happen. If you're grabbing a creature with one hand and holding the Bo Staff in the other, you can still make unarmed attacks.
Whether you drop a weapon and pick it up or release your grip and regrip it, the second action uses the rules for Interact, which has the Manipulate trait and therefore provokes Attacks of Opportunity. Fortunately, only some creatures have Attack of Opportunity or an equivalent, so that isn't a huge concern. The advantage of releasing your grip is that you'll still have the weapon available to regrip if you decide to move.
At level 4 you can Grab Flurry of Maneuvers and do a trip followed by a strike with 1 action. It is pretty good.
As for Assurance (Athletics), I'd try to go for something else, honestly. It works sometimes at low levels, but you can also try to get something that works all the time. If you are trained in Acrobatics, Cat Fall feels nice and in my experience it comes up a lot if you fight at all in urban settings.
KaosKubes wrote: Thaliak wrote: All four of these actions require the character to make an Athletics roll against the opponent's Reflex DC (for Trip and Disarm) or their Fortitude DC (for Grapple and Shove). The actions have the Attack trait, so they contribute to and suffer from Multiple Attack Penalty. -
So, if I'm understanding correctly, it would be best to:
1. Attempt a trip with the Bo Staff
2. Flurry of Blows with the Bo Staff
3. Parry/Step/Stride/Environment Interaction Yeah, that looks like a good gameplan for a bo user.
If you take "stand still" at level 4, you get to hit anything that does a move action in your reach.
This means:
1.) You can smack anyone trying to mo9ve past you to kill your squishy magic characters (And bos have a large reach, so you get a wider area you can protect).
2.) You can smack them in the head if they try to stand up after you trip them (which is also a move action).
Since this attack from Stand still isn't affected by multiple attack penalty, you can see your trip a setting up another attack later. So it is not a damage loss.
The best part is that it wastes the enemy's time since they have to spend actions to stand up. Similar, if enemies try to run around you to avoid getting smacked in situation 1.), that is also great, since they are wasting time. They are basically kiting themselves while archers and magic users shoot them.
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