Im just getting into PF. I have ordered the boxset but while i wait on that to arrive can someone please tell me how PF handles multiclassing compared to d&d
thank you
Im just getting into PF. I have ordered the boxset but while i wait on that to arrive can someone please tell me how PF handles multiclassing compared to d&d
thank you
It basically doesn't. You start as one class and are always that class but can take a dedication to a second class if you meet the stat requirements. This doesn't get you everything that class has to offer but can make certain concepts work.
Im just getting into PF. I have ordered the boxset but while i wait on that to arrive can someone please tell me how PF handles multiclassing compared to d&d
thank you
So instead of taking levels into a separate class like it has been in PF1 and in older editions of D&D, PF2's rules are that you treat "multiclassing" as a set of class feats that you can opt into or out of as much as you want, with the simple caveat that, in order to multiclass into another class, you must acquire two multiclass feats within the first multiclass you chose. This was done so people can't very easily cherry-pick some of the absolute best options in the game and overpower/min-max things beyond what the scope of the game could reasonably handle (though honestly, the concept of these things being feats that are restricted in scope by accessibility should have been enough of a discouragement).
To give an example of multiclassing, if I were a 2nd level Wizard and wanted to multiclass into Rogue, I would have to spend my 2nd level class feat on the multiclass dedication feat for Rogues, and I would gain the base benefits stated in that feat. It would also unlock other options I can take with later feats with that multiclass, if I so wanted to invest in it. Conversely, I could decide that's enough, though if I wanted to become, say, a Mage/Thief/Fighter type, I would have to invest at least two more class feats into the Rogue multiclass dedication in order to take the Fighter multiclass dedication feat.
A lot of the multiclass options will include a subset of things that give you access to a limited list of feats/options, as well as some multiclass-specific benefits that give some (but not all) of a class' schtick and flair.
There are even some subclass options that aren't specific to character classes, but instead are archetypes; these usually invoke some unique benefits that no class by themselves can grant, or pull in a bunch of features from separate classes into a single "feat chain." So if you're wanting to emulate a specific combat style like an Archer, or go into a prestigious class like the Dragon Disciple, you can do so, but with class feats instead of class levels.
What I like about this archetype process instead of actual multiclassing is that it covers a lot of different character combinations in one simple mechanic.
It covers the original multiclassing - where you have a primary class and a secondary class and you try to progress in both of them fairly evenly.
It also covers a specialization - where you have a primary class and a secondary or minor role that you can also fill.
It is also a bit different, but there are also class archetypes - where you give up a more fundamental part of your primary class in order to get something to replace it with.
There is also the balance improvements over things like D&D 3.5 where multiclassing was a dangerous thing to do. Basically 3.5 multiclassing you are trading your highest level class abilities for the lowest level class abilities of your secondary class. If that secondary class has some really powerful things in those first level or two, that can be a net benefit. Otherwise it is a pretty bad option.
PF2 multiclassing archetyping is instead at a fixed level of trade. If you spend your 2nd level and 6th level class feats on an archetype, you still get your 4th, 8th, 10th and 12th level (and so on) class feats of your primary class when you hit those levels. You aren't giving up those higher level class abilities from your primary class.
Multiclassing into a spellcaster merits its own discussion. You end up with one (or two) spell slots of every level up to eight. On the one hand I think it is fabulous that a multiclass can still scale up to the penultimate (sort of, overlook ten for me) spell level while still being a fighter first and foremost, and on the other hand I kind of miss splitting levels between two caster classes to get an enormous bucket of low and mid level spells per day. I still miss prestige classes, but spellcaster multiclass archetypes pull a lot of weight for this whole archetype dedication concept. Opens up a lot of hybrid options without requiring that brand new classes get published for whatever combination strikes your fancy.
that sounds pretty cool. i was so not happy with the way multiclass in that other game is handled. i remember when multiclass meant something
Every even level you normally get a class feat. In order to multiclass, you can pick up a [Multiclass] Dedication Feat (instead of a feat from your normal class) starting at 2nd level as long as you have the prerequisite ability scores.
You can then pick up additional feats from your multiclass archetype. You must take at least 2 feats from an archetype before you can pick up another archetype dedication feat (including another multiclass).
Multiclass archetype feats can give some iconic abilities from the class, boost certain abilities to be more like the class, and can allow you to take class feats from that class up to 1/2 your level at maximum. This means a "primary" class will always have access to higher level class feats before a multiclass character does, and may have certain abilities/features that a multiclass simply can't get (often related to their class paths).
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Examples: While a multiclass Rogue can pick up a (less powerful) version of sneak attack, they have no way to select a Rogue Racket. So if you wanted to get DEX to damage, you'd have to play a Thief Rogue and could not pick up the ability to do so through multiclassing. Similarly, a multiclass Barbarian will get the ability to Rage and the Anathema from their chosen Instinct, but will not get other features from that Instinct (another multiclass feat can get the Instinct Ability, but not the Specialization Ability or Raging Resistance.)
Overall: Multiclassing is much more balanced in PF2 compared to either being a trap option or abnormally powerful like in D&D. You don't potentially get as much benefit from minimal investment (i.e. a one level dip), but you also don't stunt the growth of your primary class (so you'll never sacrifice spell levels or attack proficiency in order to multiclass).
...spellcaster multiclass archetypes pull a lot of weight for this whole archetype dedication concept. Opens up a lot of hybrid options without requiring that brand new classes get published for whatever combination strikes your fancy.
So true.
I played a champion dedicated sorcerer in Agents of Edgewatch. Though I never took anything more than Basic Spellcasting, and thus could only cast 3rd-level spells, I put them to good use.
I was constantly spoiling the criminals' plans by infiltrating their ranks with invisibility, 3rd-level illusory disguise, and my ring of lies. Runners never got far either with my fleet step spell. Clearing crowds, announcing our arrival, or Intimidating thugs with my bullhorn cantrip was a snap too.
For example ( keeping the old example with the spellcaster dedication ), ending up with a fighter with 18 DC with their wizard spells when a real wizard has 23 DC ( leaving apart the spell part I mentioned before ), would mean:
- the enemies will 99% succeed the saving throw against your spell
- you won't deal any damage with spells ( your spells will do low damage, and if halven they'd do almost nothing ).
- you will lose a round trying to emulate a spellcaster, ending up as a malus for the whole party ( eventually, leading to a total party kill ).
This is true, but as long as people understand that multiclassing into Wizard (or other casting classes) means your going after utility and buff spells, things that don't rely on saves.
Spending one class feat on the wizard dedication just to get access to wands on the spell list is actually incredibly useful. You can grab things like longstrider. There are probably several others, but that's the first one that pops into my mind. Obscuring mist is another.
For example, a standard spellcaster would have by lvl 11_
3x lvl 1 spells
3x lvl 2 spells
3x lvl 3 spells
3x lvl 4 spells
3x lvl 5 spells
3x lvl 6 spellsA fighter who got the wizard dedication will have, by lvl 8 ( requiring lvl 12 to get a lvl 4 spell ).
1x lvl 1 spell
1x lvl 2 spell
1x lvl 3 spellThis would also require 2 feats out of the 10 a character has on the road from lvl 1 to lvl 20. if you were to fully invest in spellcasting you'd need 3 extra feats, resulting in 50% of your class feats, for being able to cast some minor and limited spell ( you can't expect them to work as offensive spells, just to say one, so you have to only rely on support/healing ones ).
I just wanted to point out that, even though you can only cast 3rd-level spells in the second half of the example, those feats also grant you the ability to take advantage of things like endless grimores/rings of wizardry, scrolls, staves, and wands, all of which can get you tons of additional spells. To say nothing of the myriad of cantrip abilies and cantrip items you can pick up.
If meant to be used for non combat purposes ( aka longstrider, nondetection, etc... ), wouldn't be easier/wiser to just grab trick magic item?
IIRC the chance of failure are kinda low even at low level.
It is another option, but I don't know about a better option.
You could emulate an alchemist archetype just by buying a bunch of alchemical items too. The draw of getting it from the archetype is that you get a handful of them for free every day. Same thing with spell slots.
Well trick magic item requires you to already be trained in a tradition and then spend a skill feat, and then gives you a chance to succeed at using an item.
If you have the requisite ability score (int, wis, cha) you can take one of the multiclass dedications and get actual spell slots and cantrips in exchange for one class feat, as well as getting trained in the skill of your casting tradition for free. Assuming you didn't want another archetype, you can literally stop and use the wands/scrolls of your casting tradition without the same chance of failure. Personally while the cost of class feat is (maybe) higher than getting a skill to trained and spending a skill feat, the resultant benefit is also lower. I believe every class has at least one level where the class feat options just aren't that interesting, and makes it easy to decide to pick up the dedication if you really want it.
Wisdom based dedications are super attractive because almost everyone will increase wisdom. Charisma based dedications are also pretty common because some charisma skills make it worth investing in. Int based dedications like wizard are probably the toughest sell, because the return on int as a base is minimal (extra trained skills).
Int based dedications like wizard are probably the toughest sell, because the return on int as a base is minimal (extra trained skills).
And crafting. Don't forget that crafting lets you spend four days of downtime to get items at full price.
Well, you can also use it to repair shields and, with another skill feat, transfer weapon and armor runes around.
But that is certainly less valuable than Wisdom or Charisma skill abilities.
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Well trick magic item requires you to already be trained in a tradition and then spend a skill feat, and then gives you a chance to succeed at using an item.
If you have the requisite ability score (int, wis, cha) you can take one of the multiclass dedications and get actual spell slots and cantrips in exchange for one class feat, as well as getting trained in the skill of your casting tradition for free. Assuming you didn't want another archetype, you can literally stop and use the wands/scrolls of your casting tradition without the same chance of failure. Personally while the cost of class feat is (maybe) higher than getting a skill to trained and spending a skill feat, the resultant benefit is also lower. I believe every class has at least one level where the class feat options just aren't that interesting, and makes it easy to decide to pick up the dedication if you really want it.
Wisdom based dedications are super attractive because almost everyone will increase wisdom. Charisma based dedications are also pretty common because some charisma skills make it worth investing in. Int based dedications like wizard are probably the toughest sell, because the return on int as a base is minimal (extra trained skills).
Trained in the skill for the Tradition you want + Trick Magic Item + Assurance will cover many needs in due time :-D
Wisdom based dedications are super attractive because almost everyone will increase wisdom. Charisma based dedications are also pretty common because some charisma skills make it worth investing in. Int based dedications like wizard are probably the toughest sell, because the return on int as a base is minimal (extra trained skills).
Occultism, Arcana, and the turn-downtime-into-money generic lores also have at least a bit of value to them. Also, there are investigators, inventors, and alchemists out there who have reason to up their int regardless.
Trick Magic Item also has an action cost.
Many rounds end up being draw scroll/wand, activate Trick Magic Item, then, well nothing. Unless it is a one action spell or you have a permissive GM that allows setup actions to not get reset in between turns, you best have started your turn with the scroll/wand already in hand.