Question that's dividing our group!


Rules Discussion

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hoping for an Official response...

Does the "You can't act while stunned" line in the Stunned condition literally mean your turn is over?

Then next turn you reduce the Stunned condition by 1?


Reebo Kesh wrote:
Hoping for an Official response...

We all are.

Spring Errata should be coming out sometime in the next month or three.


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For previous debates on the topic see here, here, and here.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
For previous debates on the topic see here, here, and here.

Thanks breithauptclan. I guess we'll wait to we hear from Paizo


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There are two "types" of being stunned.
One is being stunned for a duration (such as being stunned until the end of your next turn).
The other type is basically exactly like being slowed. Except that the stunned number is the number of actions you lose. And your actions that you lose come out of your total at the start of your turn. So, if you become Stunned 2, then you only gain one action at the start of your turn.
If you gain stunned for a set duration (such as until the end of your next turn) then it takes place immediately, and you can't act at all.

It might've been better if they had come up with another name for one of the types of stunned.
But there you have it.


When a point of order on the rules is this hotly contested, it isn't a good idea to post your personal rulings on it as though it was strict RAW.


Ched Greyfell wrote:
There are two "types" of being stunned.

Links to Pathfinder rules documents please.


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To summarize those other threads for those who haven't read them:

There are three common ways of running Stunned 1 when you gain the condition during your turn.

1) It behaves like "Slowed 1 for 1 round". You continue your current turn as normal and pay one action at the start of your next turn to remove the Stunned 1 condition.

2) You pay one action from your current turn and immediately remove the Stunned 1 condition.

3) You are unable to spend the remaining actions of your current turn and pay one action at the start of your next turn to remove the Stunned 1 condition.

Why these options are called out as dead wrong.

1) While it is true that the Slowed condition specifies that gaining the condition during your turn does not cause you to lose actions immediately, Stunned does not have that rule. Instead, having the Stunned condition also stipulates that you "Can't Act". So while you still have the remaining actions of your current turn, you can't use them. Also, effects that give the Stunned condition typically have the Incapacitation trait while ones that give Slowed usually don't.

2) Nothing in the Stunned rules mention that this is possible. It clearly states that you lose actions from the ones that you gain at the beginning of the turn in order to decrease the value of Stunned. There is no option given for paying an action that you already have in order to decrease the value.

3) This is the closest to RAW. People have a problem with this ruling because of the balance problems that it results in. A monk using a Ready action to prepare Flurry of Blows with Stunning Fist becomes very powerful - so powerful that people begin arguing that Ready should not be allowed to prepare complex activities even if the activity only costs one action.


breithauptclan wrote:
When a point of order on the rules is this hotly contested, it isn't a good idea to post your personal rulings on it as though it was strict RAW.

True, and I am terrible at this. But he is right about it being the best way forward IMO.


Dancing Wind wrote:
Ched Greyfell wrote:
There are two "types" of being stunned.
Links to Pathfinder rules documents please.

Here. Not what you are after? Well its is just that this makes it clear that there are two different types as both shown in the one spell. Then you go to the rules here or here, and try to make sense of them any other way. That last link being the clincher as it describes two different ways of dealing with stunned.


Yeah this is a whole thing, and breith summarized all sides pretty well above and Gortle linked the rules "documents"

I'm in camp 3


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
When a point of order on the rules is this hotly contested, it isn't a good idea to post your personal rulings on it as though it was strict RAW.

I got it from the core rulebook, where it was written. Not an interpretation. I just tried to explain in a way the OP might understand better. If you have a better way to explain it, feel free.


Ched Greyfell wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
When a point of order on the rules is this hotly contested, it isn't a good idea to post your personal rulings on it as though it was strict RAW.
I got it from the core rulebook, where it was written. Not an interpretation. I just tried to explain in a way the OP might understand better. If you have a better way to explain it, feel free.

It is your interpretation because stunned X still says "You can't act while stunned" and you have the condition, and are therefore stunned, until you lose X actions.

Sovereign Court

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My belief is that option 2 is currently NOT RAW, but might end up becoming it if the devs ever get around to tidying up this confusion.

Kind of how Battle Medicine was contested whether it took 0 or 2 hands to do, and ended up taking 1 hand to do. That was never a RAW option in the early prints, but ended up being the most reasonable compromise.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I do think stunned preventing reactions is an intended consequence of the condition and something worth preserving in any errata. I like option 1 the best for preserving this aspect of the condition and taking away only the expected number of actions, but it is definitely not raw and is possibly going to be wordy to change and explain.

So 2 feels likely and stunning on someone’s turn is going to be generally a waste of time compared to doing it at the end of their turn


Another balance oddity for option 3 - Stunned 1 becomes more powerful than Stunned for one round. Because Stunned for one round gets removed automatically when the duration expires, but Stunned 1 costs another action.

@Unicore: If the option 2 wording was "Spend one action and your reaction if you have it to reduce the value of Stunned by one," would that do what you are looking for?

It wouldn't necessarily take away all of the target's ability to use reactions, so if they had an additional special purpose reaction (like an extra Shield Block or AoO reaction) then they could still use that.


Ched Greyfell wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
When a point of order on the rules is this hotly contested, it isn't a good idea to post your personal rulings on it as though it was strict RAW.
I got it from the core rulebook, where it was written. Not an interpretation. I just tried to explain in a way the OP might understand better. If you have a better way to explain it, feel free.

You need to read the core rulebook again then.

Nowhere does it staes that if you get stunned X you ignore the "cannot act" part of the stunned condition.

So yes, it was just your interpatation.

Horizon Hunters

It is my opinion that Stunned should have just been its own condition, and instead of stunned with values we have Staggered with values. Staggered would work like Stunned, where you lose actions and reduce the value as you lose those, but you would still be able to "act" with the condition. Stunned would just be "you can't act". So we would have:

Staggered, where you lose a certain number of actions only
Slowed, where you lose a set number of actions for a set duration
Stunned, where you lose all actions for a set duration


Cordell Kintner wrote:

It is my opinion that Stunned should have just been its own condition, and instead of stunned with values we have Staggered with values. Staggered would work like Stunned, where you lose actions and reduce the value as you lose those, but you would still be able to "act" with the condition. Stunned would just be "you can't act". So we would have:

Staggered, where you lose a certain number of actions only
Slowed, where you lose a set number of actions for a set duration
Stunned, where you lose all actions for a set duration

they would need to basically redesign every single stun ability then since Stun is valued higher than slowed while your version of the staggered is valued lower than slowed.

or add the "can't use reactions while staggerred" that's already part of the stunned condition (since when you can't act, you also cant use reactions)

as i houserule on my own games, i let the players/creatures finish their turn when they get stunned midturn, but they still can't use reactions until they clear it in the start of their next turn.

not perfect, but i think closer to what the developers wanted it to be.

but i do see the raw being that the turn ends effectively immediately as well.


Cordell Kintner wrote:

It is my opinion that Stunned should have just been its own condition, and instead of stunned with values we have Staggered with values. Staggered would work like Stunned, where you lose actions and reduce the value as you lose those, but you would still be able to "act" with the condition. Stunned would just be "you can't act". So we would have:

Staggered, where you lose a certain number of actions only
Slowed, where you lose a set number of actions for a set duration
Stunned, where you lose all actions for a set duration

That is option #2. With the additional nerf that Staggered doesn't cause you to lose your reaction. And the additional complication of having two different names for Stunned.

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