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Thaumaturge: "You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."
1)Do you "hold" a Gantlet?
2)If a Thaumaturge wears heavy armor, does he have to remove the gantlets?
Even more complicated, the bow gantlet from TV has parry.
3) I assume you can't use the parry trait while the gantlet is holding something, but I can't find that written as a rule
However, the Thaumaturge can stow or retrieve his implement as a free action, so
4) Thaumaturge is holding an implement in the same hand as the bow gantlet. He stows the implement. Then, he parries. Then, he retrieves his implement. Does he still benefit from the parry?
1) I am not sure. It probably depends on what exactly is trying to consider the hand as a free-hand. For abilities like Implement Empowerment, and Dueling Parry I tend to lean a bit more towards not allowing free-hand weapons. Mostly because of the wording in Laughing Shadow's Arcane Cascade rules setting a precedent. But that can also be seen as an override of an unstated general rule allowing it too.
2) If 1 is true, then 2 is almost certainly both true and allowed.
3) I would assume so also. My reasoning: You can't make attacks with the free-hand weapon while holding something else. So therefore you aren't wielding the free-hand weapon. And if you are not wielding the free-hand weapon, then the parry trait action is not valid for use.
4) I would note that you can only swap implements around for free when using their specific actions. You can't stow an implement for free or swap just any time you want to.
But as for the actual question, I don't think that the parry action would persist after stowing the item you are parrying with.
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1)Do you "hold" a Gantlet?
No. However you are "wielding" it if that hand is free, and it's a 1-handed weapon, so it would count against that limit.
2)If a Thaumaturge wears heavy armor, does he have to remove the gantlets?
No, as long as you're holding something in that hand you're fine. You can easily remove the gauntlet from Full Plate without hindering the armor in any way though.
3) Even more complicated, the bow gantlet from TV has parry. I assume you can't use the parry trait while the gantlet is holding something, but I can't find that written as a rule
You can only Parry while wielding the weapon, which you aren't doing if you are holding something in that hand.
4) However, the Thaumaturge can stow or retrieve his implement as a free action, so the Thaumaturge is holding an implement in the same hand as the bow gantlet. He stows the implement. Then, he parries. Then, he retrieves his implement. Does he still benefit from the parry?
No, once you are no longer wielding the weapon, you don't gain the benefit of the trait, and holding something with a Free-Hand weapon means you're no longer wielding that weapon. Think of it as if you dropped or stowed the weapon. Would you benefit from Parry then?
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1)Do you "hold" a Gantlet?
No. However you are "wielding" it if that hand is free, and it's a 1-handed weapon, so it would count against that limit.
As wrong as it sounds, I think this is technically wrong: Gantlet lists hands as 1 and Wielding Items states "You're wielding an item any time you're holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively" and Free Hand doesn't mention losing the hand requirement for wielding.
3) Even more complicated, the bow gantlet from TV has parry. I assume you can't use the parry trait while the gantlet is holding something, but I can't find that written as a rule
You can only Parry while wielding the weapon, which you aren't doing if you are holding something in that hand.
This weapon doesn't take up your hand, usually because it is built into your armor. A free-hand weapon can't be Disarmed. You can use the hand covered by your free-hand weapon to wield other items, perform manipulate actions, and so on. You can't attack with a free-hand weapon if you're wielding anything in that hand or otherwise using that hand. When you're not wielding anything and not otherwise using the hand, you can use abilities that require you to have a hand free as well as those that require you to be wielding a weapon in that hand. Each of your hands can have only one free-hand weapon on it.
You can't attack with a free-hand weapon while it's occupied but it doesn't say anything about you not wielding it.
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Thaumaturge: "You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."
1)Do you "hold" a Gantlet?
Probably, yes, although it's a little vague. The key part is in the wielding rules, which the free-hand trait doesn't have any text clearly overriding:
You're wielding an item any time you're holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively. When wielding an item, you're not just carrying it around—you're ready to use it. Other abilities might require you to be wearing the item, to be holding it, or simply to have it.
First it says that to wield requires to hold, but then it says that sometimes other abilities only require you to wear or hold. Free-hand items are clearly worn, so maybe that means they're not held, but that's a very borderline claim to make.
A reasonable compromise to resolve this vague rule might be:
- If your gauntlet hand is otherwise free, so you can make gauntlet strikes; then you're wielding and "holding" the gauntlet for the purpose of Implement's Empowerment counting.
- If your gauntlet hand is filled with something else like a sword, then you're not currently wielding the gauntlet, so (and here is the compromise) it also doesn't count as "holding", just as "wearing", and it doesn't get in the way of using Implement's Empowerment with the sword.
2)If a Thaumaturge wears heavy armor, does he have to remove the gantlets?
At least one of them.
Well, they don't get heavy armor proficiency by default, so there was never a promise it would be ideal for them. OTOH, there's also no real requirement to actually wear the complimentary gauntlets to gain the benefit of heavy armor.
Even more complicated, the bow gantlet from TV has parry.
3) I assume you can't use the parry trait while the gantlet is holding something, but I can't find that written as a rule
This is a combination of the free-hand trait and the wielding rules. The free-hand trait says you can't wield the gauntlet while holding something else, and wielding says you're holding something ready to use it effectively. So using Parry with a gauntlet when holding other things in it isn't possible, because you're not ready to use the gauntlet effectively.
However, the Thaumaturge can stow or retrieve his implement as a free action, so4) Thaumaturge is holding an implement in the same hand as the bow gantlet. He stows the implement. Then, he parries. Then, he retrieves his implement. Does he still benefit from the parry?
Stowing the implement is only a free action while switching to some of the special thaumaturge actions, not to any kind of action like a parry.
The parry trait says: This weapon can be used defensively to block attacks. While wielding this weapon, if your proficiency with it is trained or better, you can spend a single action to position your weapon defensively, gaining a +1 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
If your gauntlet hand is full, then you're not "wielding" the gauntlet (as per the free-hand trait). Therefore the defensive positioning of the gauntlet should become useless.
It's essentially the same as starting your turn by doing a parry, then taking off your gauntlet and dropping it on the floor, and arguing that you should still gain the AC bonus.
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With all that said, the gauntlet bow does seem like a fun item for a thaumaturge, because it's 1H and allows both melee and ranged attacks. So it can profit from the ammunition feat, and you only need a single set of runes to power it.
Price you pay of course is that it's not finesse or agile, and low damage die. But implement's empowerment is basically there to compensate for that low damage die.
I think you should fixate less on trying to hold stuff in that hand. That's overkill. The other abilities are still pretty nice. Just declare it a weapon implement (for that sweet ranged reaction) or switch around implements in your other hand.
Are Shields with Boss or Spikes a single one-handed weapon for this purpose?
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Are Shields with Boss or Spikes a single one-handed weapon for this purpose?
A shield boss/spike is a weapon, but a shield is not, even if it has a boss/spike on it. So you're holding something in your hands that's not a 1H weapon, esoterica or implement. So then you can't use implement's empowerment.
It makes 1H parry weapons like this one interesting for thaumaturges because the class design went out of its way to stop you from wanting to use shields.
Sorry but can you quote any rule that threat a spike shield as being a "no weapon"? I don't remember anything about this.
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Sorry but can you quote any rule that threat a spike shield as being a "no weapon"? I don't remember anything about this.
The shield isn't a weapon, as shown by shield bash as it's he only attack you can make with plain shield. "A shield bash is not actually a weapon": a shield spike/boss is attached to that item, meaning you're not holding the weapon but the item it's attached too. It's similar to a crossbow with an attached bayonet/reinforced frame where you're holding the item that it's attached too.
"You must be wielding or wearing the item the weapon is attached to in order to attack with it. For example, shield spikes are attached to a shield, allowing you to attack with the spikes instead of a shield bash, but only if you're wielding the shield.": note, you're wielding the shield, not the attached weapon in this example. And that means for weapons attached to weapons, you have to be wielding the base weapon to use the attached weapon, but the attached weapon also should require you wield it... This leads to an interesting conundrum where you need 3 hands to use a crossbow with a bayonet since it never mentions anything about hands used on the base weapon counting for the attached weapons. I think we all know how it's intended to work, but oh boy did that make it weird if you delve into it.
PS: now there ARE shields that are weapons: Dart Shields, "A mechanism within this shield can shoot projectiles, causing the shield to also function as a ranged weapon."
Yeah I suppose the newer generation of shields that are weapons from the get-go would work better for thaumaturges.
LOL I looked at them, and they didn't change anything: they use the Integrated trait: it "works like an attached weapon but can't be removed from the shield." As such, you default back to the Attached rules, meaning the shield itself isn't a weapon... This is illustrated in the example at the end of the trait. "You can continue fighting normally with the integrated weapon if the shield is broken, but if the shield is destroyed, so is the weapon."