Formula availability / level


Rules Discussion


There are a lot of posts and videos about P2e crafting I’ve seen. The common theme is crafting is especially useful (or useful at all) to make things you can’t otherwise buy. So many examples citing that at a certain level, you won’t be able to easily find a city of high enough level to buy something of your level.
But my question is, isn’t the level and rarity of an item likely the same for a formula of this item?
If I want a 13th level item (even common, but uncommon and rare are similar but different conversations), how am I supposed to find a formula for this item, if it’s (likely) 13th also???
No one seems to talk about this. If I need a 13th level city to buy a common 13th level formula, why wouldn’t I just buy the item?

Am I missing something? Couldn’t find anything that would suggest their formulas are any lower level.
Same issue with uncommon/rare - why not search out the item rather than its formula.


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That is my understanding too.

Especially for rarity - you don't get to gain access to uncommon or rare items just by using crafting. The formulas are also uncommon or rare. If the GM doesn't want a particular item to be in the game, then the players shouldn't be trying to bypass that in the first place.

The level of the formulas is less of a problem because you can't craft something that is a higher level than the character is anyway - even if you have the formula for it.

I think that a lot of people want to exaggerate the benefits of crafting because of what it was used for in previous editions. In PF2, crafting is a way of spending downtime in order to gain a modest income if you aren't doing anything else. But it really isn't any better than any Lore skill (such as the one that you likely got from your Background) and using Earn Income. Crafting and Earn Income use the same table for the amount of money gained. There are some differences, but they aren't drastic.

What I see crafting being used for:

Repairing Shields.
After some errata, you now need Crafting and Magical Crafting in order to move runes around on weapons and armor.
Campaign dependent stuff:
* You can create items 'in the field' rather than having to travel back to a settlement. It still costs downtime and requires a formula to do so.
* If the campaign features a lot of downtime, you can use Crafting in place of Earn Income. And if you are using Crafting for other things, then you may even have a higher proficiency in it than in your Lore skill.
* You can craft things like ammunition in a low resources campaign where ammunition and other resources are both tracked and not readily available for purchase.


the players might not always be in that high level settlement where they could buy the item at will, but they could visit that settlement to buy the recipe and then craft that item while elsewhere

there are feats which give crafters a better result while crafting than they would get from normal earn income, which means their downtime is better spent crafting than earning income and buying items

there is also the Inventor skill feat, which allows players to learn recipes they might not otherwise have access to

Sovereign Court

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I think the point was that the GM could also give out formulas as a type of loot.


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The Inventor Skill feat allows you to get all common formulas you could want. The feat is free for the actual Inventor class at level 1 and even the Archetype comes with it.

As for uncommon/rare items, crafting can work as a good way to multiply loot. Found a Speed rune, but can't decide which of your martials needs it most? Just reverse engineer it to get the formula and craft one for everyone.


Blave wrote:
As for uncommon/rare items, crafting can work as a good way to multiply loot. Found a Speed rune, but can't decide which of your martials needs it most? Just reverse engineer it to get the formula and craft one for everyone.

Which I would mention for people who are newer to the system - this is a high risk, high reward idea. The other option is that you fail the skill check to reverse engineer the item and end up destroying it. Then your party has zero of the new loot item.


breithauptclan wrote:
Which I would mention for people who are newer to the system - this is a high risk, high reward idea. The other option is that you fail the skill check to reverse engineer the item and end up destroying it. Then your party has zero of the new loot item.

The risk isn't that high, sure a bad roll can have use lose the item. But given that you can just wait a level or two and a crafter has extremely easy access to item and circumstance bonuses to rolls.

A level 12 crafter likely has a 26-27 modifier, impecable crafting and the DC is 32 for an at level uncommon item, 29 for a level 10 uncommon item. A 10% chance of something bad happening isn't huge.
A level 13 character can even assure the level 10 uncommon item.

Is there a risk, possibly, but once that formula is obtained there is no more risk and lots of potential benefits.


Crafting does more than just make items

Repair

Recall knowledge


Since crafting (and reverse engineering) are done at the players choice of time, you can also expect to have a hero point available to help limit the risk.


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Which I would mention for people who are newer to the system - this is a high risk, high reward idea. The other option is that you fail the skill check to reverse engineer the item and end up destroying it. Then your party has zero of the new loot item.

The risk isn't that high, sure a bad roll can have use lose the item. But given that you can just wait a level or two and a crafter has extremely easy access to item and circumstance bonuses to rolls.

A level 12 crafter likely has a 26-27 modifier, impecable crafting and the DC is 32 for an at level uncommon item, 29 for a level 10 uncommon item. A 10% chance of something bad happening isn't huge.
A level 13 character can even assure the level 10 uncommon item.

Is there a risk, possibly, but once that formula is obtained there is no more risk and lots of potential benefits.

Keep in mind that feats like specialty crafting and impeccable crafting say that they only apply when crafting an item.

While dismantling uses the same DC as crafting, it's not the same activity.


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Mellack wrote:
Since crafting (and reverse engineering) are done at the players choice of time, you can also expect to have a hero point available to help limit the risk.

Checks, Core Rulebook pg. 500

"Some downtime activities require rolls, typically skill checks. Because these rolls represent the culmination of a series of tasks over a long period, players can't use most abilities or spells that manipulate die rolls, such as activating a magic item to gain a bonus or casting a fortune spell to roll twice. Constant benefits still apply, though, so someone might invest a magic item that gives them a bonus without requiring activation. You might make specific exceptions to this rule. If something could apply constantly, or so often that it might as well be constant, it's more likely to be used for downtime checks; for instance, Assurance could apply."

Hero points aren't a constant effect and therefore can't help with "crafting (and reverse engineering)" done in downtime.

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